Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1347270' date='Aug 2 2007, 12:11 PM']The author of this article has very little knowledge of the Catholic teaching of indulgences. Martin Luther himself very sternly corrected those who didn't believe that the Church had the authority of granting indulgences. His beef, and rightly so, was the practice of SELLING indulgences.

First, indulgences do not forgive sin. Period. When we sin, we distance ourselves from Christ. The true penalty for sin -- any sin -- is death. We are doomed to die because of original sin alone. Also, in addition to the eternal punishment as a result of sin is a debt temporal punishment, which can be served on Earth or in purgatory if our debt is unpaid, we pay it there.

We may be forgiven from sin through the sacrament of reconciliation, which restores our sanctifying grace. This does not do away with the temporal punishment also attached to sin. We must serve that time through suffering or prayer. Every prayer, sacrifice, or act of mortification has a partial indulgence attached. Some actions, under the correct conditions, may have a plenary indulgence attached. If we confess our sins, and then receive a plenary indulgence, if we were to die at that point, we'd go straight to heaven bypassing purgatory.

The practice of selling indulgences is a loathsome one. I doubt anyone here will argue with that. One cannot effectively sell a plenary indulgence, because in order to be granted a plenary indulgence, one must be without any sin on their soul, and have a perfectly contrite heart. If one is purchasing a plenary indulgence, it is unlikely that they would be contrite or sinless.[/quote]
This is a great explanation.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1350168' date='Aug 5 2007, 11:12 AM']I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.[/quote]
Then they are not Catholic. They are outside the church, plain and simple. In their flagrant disobedience, they risk hell.

Citing 'Catholics' that disagree with the church has absolutely zero weight. They are no more Catholic than you are, in terms of belief.

[Resurrexi]

I concur with adt. Indulgences were solemnly defined by the Church at the Oecumenical Council of Trent in the "Decree Concerning Indulgences" (Denzinger No. 989):

[quote name='D 989']Decree Concerning Indulgences *

989 Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church, and she has made use of such power divinely given to her, [cf.Matt. 16:19; 18:18] even in the earliest times, the holy Synod teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to a Christian people and approved by the authority of the sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns those with anathema who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. . . .[/quote]

[Aloysius]

Indulgences attached to stuff like donating money work the way Our Lord said all donations of money work: the old poor woman who donates her last coin merits far more than the rich man who donates 1% of what he has.

[Budge]

[quote]I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.

************

Then they are not Catholic. They are outside the church, plain and simple. In their flagrant disobedience, they risk hell.[/quote]

Oh come on, you cant seriously believe that if some well meaning Catholic, who believes everything else but rejects indulgences is going to go to hell?

Even I know there are born again Christians who are truly born again, who have a few minor theological points wrong. {there are core basics that are fruits of salvation, I do not believe anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ is truly saved}

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:36 PM']Oh come on, you cant seriously believe that if some well meaning Catholic, who believes everything else but rejects indulgences is going to go to hell?

Even I know there are born again Christians who are truly born again, who have a few minor theological points wrong. {there are core basics that are fruits of salvation, I do not believe anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ is truly saved}[/quote]


We leave it to God to judge. But it is completely foolish to believe everything else and reject one thing. Why does one think they would be smarter than the Church that has stood for 2000 years on that one issue? "trust not in your own understanding" prov 3:5. "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". But Budge likes thinking people who trust in their own understanding.

[hoosieranna]

Answered my own question.

Sorry.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Nadezhda

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1349931' date='Aug 4 2007, 10:51 PM']bduge, try for a second to think about it like this, without catholic hatred goggles on.
you are a small child. your mother has told you NOT to play ball in house. you understand her instructions and yet, decide to play ball anyways. you break a lamp. understandably, your mother is upset, disappointed in you for not obeying her and for hurting something. you, full of genuine contrition and remorse for disobeying your mother and for destroying something of hers, cry and ask your mom to forgive you.

because your mother loves you unconditionally and knows that you are genuinely sorry, of course she forgives you!

but. the lamp is still broken. you must still pick up the pieces of the lamp, throw them away and get a new one. or, perhaps it was broken clean in two pieces, and you can glue them back together.

the forgiveness of the mother corresponds to God's remission of eternal punishment due to sin, because Christ has died so that they may be eternally remitted.

however, anyone with sense knows that even after you have accepted Christ's offer of remission of eternal punishment, you still sin - ie. you STILL BREAK LAMPS, and thus, temporal punishment becomes an issue.

as human beings created to live in community, our sins have repercussions on the Church as the Body of Christ, and thus, we must not only seek the forgiveness of God, but also try our darnedest, with HIS GRACE!!, to make up for what we have done wrong. we still have to pick up the broken lamp and start over!

thus, because Scripture teaches that only the perfectly just may see God, most people on their death bed have lots of broken lamps lying around. but, because
God is infinitely merciful, He allows us a chance to pick up those pieces, to be purified in the fire of His love, as St. Paul says, so that we may be perfected and thus, see Him face to face.

indulgences are a way in which we are able to start picking up those pieces on earth, or to help those already enduring this state of purification, to pick up their pieces, since we are connected in the Communion of Saints, since all are alive in Christ, His Body, the Church. (thats from Revelation, i just read that today with my hubby )

honestly, from an objective perspective, does that make sense at all? can you at least TRY to see why we believe what we do? [/quote]
Tha't's a good explanation. I'll keep that in mind when explaining purgatory to others...

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1360386' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:48 PM']We leave it to God to judge. But it is completely foolish to believe everything else and reject one thing. Why does one think they would be smarter than the Church that has stood for 2000 years on that one issue? "trust not in your own understanding" prov 3:5. "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". But Budge likes thinking people who trust in their own understanding. [/quote]
Good one.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM']Oh come on, you cant seriously believe that if some well meaning Catholic, who believes everything else but rejects indulgences is going to go to hell?[/quote]
I said "risk" hell. If you disobey God, why would you not risk hell? Any sin we commit risks hell. Disobedience to the church == disobedience to God.

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM']Even I know there are born again Christians who are truly born again, who have a few minor theological points wrong.[/quote]
You are saved once you're in heaven, not one moment before. I am not sure of my own salvation; I'm a terrible, loathsome sinner. I pray that God is merciful.

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM']{there are core basics that are fruits of salvation, I do not believe anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ is truly saved}[/quote]
We Catholics believe that it's a "core basic" that the Church is Christ's own, and to reject her is to reject Christ. There is no salvation outside the church. I pray that you come to this realization before it is too late...

[mtettleton]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1347360' date='Aug 2 2007, 02:23 PM']Like I have a bible that says at the beginning some pope says taht if you read a chapter a day you'll get 30 days from Purgatory. [/quote]

My understanding of Purgatory is that you don't spend "days" in Purgatory, rather it is a cleansing process for the soul that cannot be accurately described as a place you spend a certain amount of time in.


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1347578' date='Aug 2 2007, 04:35 PM']You don't actually get thirty days from purgatory for an indulgence of thirty days, you get the same amount of temporal punishment remitted as you would if you fasted, prayed or gave alms for thirty days.[/quote]

This seems more accurate to me. We have to remember that God exists outside of time so indulgences shouldn't be thought of as "knocking time off." It's not like getting a prison sentence reduced for good behavior. It's more a way to begin the cleansing process here on Earth. (At least that is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Peace

Matt

[N/A Gone]

not to hijack, but this issue was a tough one for me when i converted. I couldnt understand the currency language of indulgances. When it comes to purgatory I understand it in the way of "finishing the sanctification process" but not in a way of directly paying a sum for a sum gathered by sin. It might just be language, because Im sure all metaphors are limited. But thats my issue,

Indulgances as graces granted by the authority of the church is something I can buy easily. Its just a matter of what those indulgances do.

[ruso]

Hey Budge

Sight, separated sister, the obvious abuses committed by Tetzel and other preachers of indulgences were with no need eliminated to resign to the healthy and beneficial doctrine of the same ones. But I am going to say a thing to you. Tetzel was paladín of ortodoxia, a flagman of the Christian faith compared with Luther. And the following text of a letter is enough like proof of it that the “German reformer” wrote to his colleague Melanchton :

Luther, Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521
“If you are preaching of the grace, it preaches a true and nonfictitious grace; if the grace is true, you must take to a true sin and not one fictitious one. God does not save to which they are only sinners fictitious. You be a sinner and sins audaciously, but it creates and cheers in Christ still more audaciously… while we are here (in this world) we have to sin… No sin will separate us of the Lamb, although forniquar us and we assassinate thousand times to the day.”

Is Luther an example of which is the relation between sin, grace, faith and pardon?.

[Winchester]

Bump.

[prose]

I have always understood it this way (correct me if I am wrong).

Purgatory is for purification in order to be able to enter the site of God. Acts that procure indulgences are things that for all intensive purposes work towards making someone more holy and pure, that is why purgatory is shortened. If one is to perform an act, but is not doing it for anything but the "indulgence" then it would not shorten anything because they are not working towards holiness or purification.

For instance, if one gives 5 million dollars to Father Bob in order to try to buy indulgences, but he is not trying to become more holy, and be closer to Christ, then he has done nothing and gained nothing. But if someone give Father Bob 5 dollars in a sense of sacrifice, not to "buy" indulgences, but to help others, and to aid in their relationship to Christ, he/she may gain some indulgences. Like the women in the Bible who had little but gave all she had was more holy than the rich people that sacrificed nothing except some money.

Indulgences are not ways to buy into heaven early, they are ways that we can strive to become more holy and more pure in order to come into God's presence. By the very nature of the act, it would shorten purgatory because the purpose of purgatory is purification.

Make sense?

[CatherineM]

As to disagreeing with the church, I am a thinking human being with free will. That free will was also given as a grace from the Lord. There are things that I disagree with, but and this is a big but, I obey. We may not agree with a speed limit, but we follow it or we pay a consequence. I'm not allowed as a Catholic, particularly as a catechist to openly question and especially not to teach contrary to church teachings, but I can in my heart question things, except for the excathera ones. If I do disobey in some way, then I have to be willing to accept the consequences of having to go to confession, do penance and atone, or take the risk of waiting for final judgment on my failings.

[Hashbrowns]

The diocease where I live just recently celebrated its 150'th Anniversary, and gave a plenary indulgence to everyone who attended the Eucharistic Congress, mass, and reconciliation. It's pretty sweet.

As to purgatory, Plato tells a story of people who live in a cave all of their life, with very little light. Then, they come out of the cave and are blinded by the light that they find outside. Purgatory I think is kinda like that. We need time, after living on earth, to be able to prepare our eyes to see God face-to-face. I know it's not a perfect explanation, so i'd be pleased if anyone added anything to it.

[CatherineM]

The best explanation of purgatory that I ever heard is that after a dinner party, you don't put the plates back in the cabinet without washing them first. Purgatory is like the dish washer so that only clean things actually make it to Heaven.

[adt6247]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1374192' date='Aug 30 2007, 02:34 PM']I'm not allowed as a Catholic, particularly as a catechist to openly question and especially not to teach contrary to church teachings, but I can in my heart question things, except for the excathera ones.[/quote]
That word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

Not all infallible teachings of the church were spoken [i]ex cathedra[/i] by the pope. In fact, very few were.

"[i]Ex cathedra[/i]" translates to, literally, "off the chair". It is a type of declaration the pope may make that is infallible. There are plenty of teachings of the church that are infallible without the pope having to say so.

[CatherineM]

Sorry I was so imprecise. I do know the difference, but have trained myself to avoid using the "I" word because it puts some people off, especially when doing ecumenical work.

[prose]

[quote name='prose' post='1374170' date='Aug 30 2007, 11:42 AM']I have always understood it this way (correct me if I am wrong).

Purgatory is for purification in order to be able to enter the site of God. Acts that procure indulgences are things that for all intensive purposes work towards making someone more holy and pure, that is why purgatory is shortened. If one is to perform an act, but is not doing it for anything but the "indulgence" then it would not shorten anything because they are not working towards holiness or purification.

For instance, if one gives 5 million dollars to Father Bob in order to try to buy indulgences, but he is not trying to become more holy, and be closer to Christ, then he has done nothing and gained nothing. But if someone give Father Bob 5 dollars in a sense of sacrifice, not to "buy" indulgences, but to help others, and to aid in their relationship to Christ, he/she may gain some indulgences. Like the women in the Bible who had little but gave all she had was more holy than the rich people that sacrificed nothing except some money.

Indulgences are not ways to buy into heaven early, they are ways that we can strive to become more holy and more pure in order to come into God's presence. By the very nature of the act, it would shorten purgatory because the purpose of purgatory is purification.

Make sense?[/quote]

Just to add one more thing to that. I think many Catholics misunderstand indulgences in that they aren't just "granted" there are requirements that need to be met in order for them to happen.

"To acquire a plenary indulgence," says the Enchiridion, "it is necessary to perform the work to which the indulgence is attached and to fulfill the following three conditions: sacramental confession, Eucharistic Communion, and prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff. It is further required that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent."

AND

To receive a partial indulgence, you have to recite the prayer or do the act of charity assigned. You have to be in the state of grace at least by the completion of the prescribed work. The rule says" at the completion" because often part of the prescribed work is going to confession, and you might not be in the state of grace before you do that. The other thing required is having a general intention to gain the indulgence. If you perform the required act but don't want to gain the indulgence, obviously you won't gain it.

(from: [url="http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/indulgc.php)"]http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/indulgc.php)[/url]

Edited August 30, 2007 by prose