Historical Jesus

[reyb]

[indent]The subject of all faith, belief and controversies in Christianity and even other religion like Islam is Jesus himself. As some sayings of story- teller, the coming of Jesus is best story ever told in the history of humanity, may I ask, is there really a solid evidence of Jesus’ existence besides the Holy Scripture?[/indent]

[T-Bone _]

There is solid evidence that people who claim to have known Jesus really lived.

[tojo]

I am a history major at a state university, and virtually all respectable historians agree that there is no doubt that Jesus actually existed.

[kateri05]

many secular historians of the time report of His existence, including Josephus and Pliny the Elder

[reyb]

I asked because of ………

[indent]Matt 27:45-53

[color="#FF0000"]45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"-which means, "My God , my God , why have you forsaken me?"

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 [b]The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. [/b]NIV[/indent][/color]

[indent]If there is a man named Jesus, more or less 2000 years ago. It only follows that whatever he did during that period are tangible things. It can be seen, hear touched, feel, smell and taste (just like in the case of the wine in his miracle – water to wine) and can be plainly understood within your senses.

Now, have you ever encountered a book or books regarding the ‘resurrection of the dead’? [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1349024' date='Aug 3 2007, 08:37 PM']many secular historians of the time report of His existence, including Josephus and Pliny the Elder[/quote]

[indent]Can I have this letter/book or whatever? Please.[/indent]

[tojo]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Works-Josephus-Complete-Unabridged-Updated/dp/0913573868/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2729121-6803940?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186188872&sr=1-2"]Josephus[/url]

[reyb]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1349056' date='Aug 3 2007, 08:58 PM'][url="http://www.amazon.com/Works-Josephus-Complete-Unabridged-Updated/dp/0913573868/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2729121-6803940?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186188872&sr=1-2"]Josephus[/url][/quote]
[indent]There are 3 books (as far as I know) Josephus wrote - Antiquities of the Jews, Against Apion, and The Wars of the Jews

Eusebius wrote in his ‘Church History’ Chapter 5. The Time of his Appearance among Men.

1. And now, after this necessary introduction to our proposed history of the Church, we can enter, so to speak, upon our journey, beginning with the appearance of our Saviour in the flesh. And we invoke God, the Father of the Word, and him, of whom we have been speaking, Jesus Christ himself our Saviour and Lord, the heavenly Word of God, as our aid and fellow-laborer in the narration of the truth.

2. It was in the forty-second year of the reign of Augustus and the twenty-eighth after the subjugation of Egypt and the death of Antony and Cleopatra, with whom the dynasty of the Ptolemies in Egypt came to an end, that our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, according to the prophecies which had been uttered concerning him. Micah 5:2 His birth took place during the first census, while Cyrenius was governor of Syria.

3. Flavius Josephus, the most celebrated of Hebrew historians, also mentions this census, which was taken during Cyrenius' term of office. In the same connection he gives an account of the uprising of the Galileans, which took place at that time, of which also Luke, among our writers, has made mention in the Acts, in the following words: "After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away a multitude after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed." Acts 5:37

4. The above-mentioned author, in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities, in agreement with these words, adds the following, which we quote exactly: "Cyrenius, a member of the senate, one who had held other offices and had passed through them all to the consulship, a man also of great dignity in other respects, came to Syria with a small retinue, being sent by Cæsar to be a judge of the nation and to make an assessment of their property."
5. And after a little he says: "But Judas, a Gaulonite, from a city called Gamala, taking with him Sadduchus, a Pharisee, urged the people to revolt, both of them saying that the taxation meant nothing else than downright slavery, and exhorting the nation to defend their liberty."

6. And in the second book of his History of the Jewish War, he writes as follows concerning the same man: "At this time a certain Galilean, whose name was Judas, persuaded his countrymen to revolt, declaring that they were cowards if they submitted to pay tribute to the Romans, and if they endured, besides God, masters who were mortal." These things are recorded by Josephus.

(See Church history / Eusebius [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm)"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm)[/url]

And I do not see that Josephus, a Jewish historian, said ‘He saw Jesus’. Maybe you can help me where is it in his writings. [/indent]

[White Knight]

[quote name='reyb' post='1348983' date='Aug 3 2007, 08:05 PM'][indent]The subject of all faith, belief and controversies in Christianity and even other religion like Islam is Jesus himself. As some sayings of story- teller, the coming of Jesus is best story ever told in the history of humanity, may I ask, is there really a solid evidence of Jesus’ existence besides the Holy Scripture?[/indent][/quote]


Yes there is solid-concrete evidence that proves that Jesus really did exist number of high eyewitness accounts not just the Apostles, but many people, all proclaiming His Life, Death, Resurrection, and His Ascension. The Historical Jesus and the Biblical Jesus are one in the same, they are not different, they are one account. Jesus did exist, even the most secular humanistic/atheistic historian will tell you that this is true, even if they dont wanna believe it themselves.

Jesus is real. History proves this right, inside and outside of Sacred Scripture.

[reyb]

[indent]If the Jesus you are saying, (which is the historical Jesus), is the same Jesus proclaimed by the prophets and apostles – then it is good. But if it is not, then it is a disaster.

I know too well you are referring to Jesus and his coming more or less 2000 years ago but, such idea is just a belief or may I say an ‘interpretation’ to the scripture. If this interpretation is correct and true as they say it happens in the past, therefore, it is historical. And if it is historical then there must be a piece of evidence – a sort of footmark in the sand.

Now, who told you that prophets and apostles are referring to historical Jesus? Do they hear and see God the way true witnesses saw Him?

This is a testimony of a witness in 2 Thess 2:1-4

[indent][color="#FF0000"]Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God[/color].[/indent] [/indent]

[abercius24]

Okay, I was going to post an article from a Protestant source here dealing with this issue, but I'm sure somebody would slap my hand afterwards. Instead, I'll point you to my website where I have a link to it:

[url="http://www.catholicqanda.com/AttsofGod.html"]http://www.catholicqanda.com/AttsofGod.html[/url]

It deals with quotes from Josephus and the records Eusebius testified to have read. It also deals with the mention of Jesus in the Talmud (the official records of Jewish tradition), the Acts of Pontius Pilate, and the records of the Roman Historian Tacitus as recorded by Pliny the Younger. Very fascinating stuff, but not as blatant as some probably would have preferred.

In Christ,

Steve S. -- abercius24
CatholicQandA.com

[reyb]

[indent]I have read ‘Historical References to Jesus, His Miracles and His Resurrection, Outside the New Testament by Bob Sieger’ from [url="http://www.british-israel.ca"]http://www.british-israel.ca[/url] which is providing some evidences of the existence of the historical Jesus.

He cited:
[list=1]
[*]In Sanhedrin 43A of Babylonian Talmud (70-200 AD) saying that Jesus was hanged on the eve of Passover.
[*]In Chapter 3 – Sedition of the Jews Against Pontius Pilate Concerning Christ, and What befell Paulina and the Jews at Rome, Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus (30-100 AD) quoting there is a wise man named Jesus as the Christ.
[*]Justin Matrys (100-165AD) made clear references to a document called the Acts of Pilate, though the Act of Pilate itself is missing or nowhere to find. (destroyed or whatever)
[*]Tertullian (160-220AD) wrote to Roman official about the unusual event surrounding the trial. (in reference to the Acts of Pilate)
[*]Eusebius (c265-c240AD) also verified the Pilate reports.
[*]Tacitus (56-117AD)
[/list]In the above suppose-to-be source of evidence, none of them see Jesus in the flesh, I mean the historical Jesus. If the Jesus of the prophets and apostles is truly the historical Jesus and whatever happen in Jerusalem regarding his death and resurrection are ‘historical account’ – it is very remote for the Jewish historian to ignore or forget the ‘zombie’.

We can read the ‘Antiquities of the Jews’ by Josephus regarding Jewish law and whatever but he never mentioned anything about ‘[color="#FF0000"][post="1349036"]The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people’[/post][/color].[/indent]

[abercius24]

[quote name='reyb' post='1359086' date='Aug 15 2007, 02:39 AM'][indent]I have read ‘Historical References to Jesus, His Miracles and His Resurrection, Outside the New Testament by Bob Sieger’ from [url="http://www.british-israel.ca"]http://www.british-israel.ca[/url] which is providing some evidences of the existence of the historical Jesus.

He cited:[list=1]
[*]In Sanhedrin 43A of Babylonian Talmud (70-200 AD) saying that Jesus was hanged on the eve of Passover.
[*]In Chapter 3 – Sedition of the Jews Against Pontius Pilate Concerning Christ, and What befell Paulina and the Jews at Rome, Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus (30-100 AD) quoting there is a wise man named Jesus as the Christ.
[*]Justin Matrys (100-165AD) made clear references to a document called the Acts of Pilate, though the Act of Pilate itself is missing or nowhere to find. (destroyed or whatever)
[*]Tertullian (160-220AD) wrote to Roman official about the unusual event surrounding the trial. (in reference to the Acts of Pilate)
[*]Eusebius (c265-c240AD) also verified the Pilate reports.
[*]Tacitus (56-117AD)
[/list]In the above suppose-to-be source of evidence, none of them see Jesus in the flesh, I mean the historical Jesus. If the Jesus of the prophets and apostles is truly the historical Jesus and whatever happen in Jerusalem regarding his death and resurrection are ‘historical account’ – it is very remote for the Jewish historian to ignore or forget the ‘zombie’.

We can read the ‘Antiquities of the Jews’ by Josephus regarding Jewish law and whatever but he never mentioned anything about ‘[color="#FF0000"][post="1349036"]The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people’[/post][/color].[/indent][/quote]

Perhaps Josephus was not exposed to those particular supernatural instances. He does give some striking details about supernatural phenomena occuring near and around the Temple area -- particularly of a blinding light leaving the Holy of Holies (a scenario that seems to suggest the Shekina Glory Cloud [God's presence] had abandoned the Jewish Temple). He also speaks of prophets who walked the streets preaching the imminent destruction of Jerusalem, which Christians at the time had already prepared for. Such details are consistent with the supernatural environment that existed around the Early Church, whether or not Josephus understood why they were occuring.

Edited August 15, 2007 by abercius24

[reyb]

[indent]Let us say, not only Josephus but all of the historians in early days of christianity including tacitus and eusebius and the rest of early church fathers, including the centurion. That is, if this is a historical event. [/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]So there is only one testimony about this - the Book of Matthew.[/indent]
Matt 27:50-54

[indent][color="#FF0000"]50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!" [/color][/indent]NIV