Kirisutodo333 Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1444259' date='Jan 10 2008, 09:16 PM'][post="1361823"]But there is another Jesus according to Apostle Paul.[/post][/quote] Jesus was one of the most common names of that time. Paul could be referring to a hundred Jesus, but he is singling out the Jesus who "was the Son of God, who was crucified and who was raised." Let's not forget here that the Bible is also considered a historical source. It is not a book of tales, or a mythological writing. It is not a fairy story that we believe and then try to justify it by connecting them with sources from "other" historians (apparently Apostles and Disciples don't count as historians huh). All other historical sources merely support the historical truth claim in the Bible.
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1575295' date='Jun 18 2008, 04:54 PM']Jesus was one of the most common names of that time. Paul could be referring to a hundred Jesus, but he is singling out the Jesus who "was the Son of God, who was crucified and who was raised."[/quote] [indent]2 Cor 11:4 [color="#FF0000"]4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached,[/color]NIV[/indent] [indent]It is possible that the name Jesus is common just like you said but, this ‘other Jesus’ in the above verse has preachers. [/indent] Edited June 19, 2008 by reyb
Galloglasses Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Reyb, I've already explained about that verse Paul was talking about. [i]He's not talking of a spefic Jesus but of a metaphor for heresies false attributed to Jesus.[/i] Don't start this arguement again before I start reposting everything I've said on it. What Kirisutodo333 was talking about was that the name Jesus was popular for Jewish boys at the time of Jesus' birth, (or before, or after, depending on the fad cycle with regards to naming Baby boys at the time), the Jews were very religious people, one of the meanings of the Name Jesus is 'God is Salvation' If you were a religious Jew at the time, wouldn't you want to give your child a name, the very utterance of which, was a praise of God?
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1576058' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:21 AM']Reyb, I've already explained about that verse Paul was talking about. [i]He's not talking of a spefic Jesus but of a metaphor for heresies false attributed to Jesus.[/i] Don't start this arguement again before I start reposting everything I've said on it. What Kirisutodo333 was talking about was that the name Jesus was popular for Jewish boys at the time of Jesus' birth, (or before, or after, depending on the fad cycle with regards to naming Baby boys at the time), the Jews were very religious people, one of the meanings of the Name Jesus is 'God is Salvation' If you were a religious Jew at the time, wouldn't you want to give your child a name, the very utterance of which, was a praise of God?[/quote] -------------------------------------------- [indent]Like I said, the name Jesus maybe too popular, and maybe there are many boys named Jesus. But the Jesus in the above verse has preachers. Now, do you know any Jesus besides your Christ who has preachers?[/indent]
Galloglasses Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 No. And for goodness sake, you just blindly ignored what I said. THERE IS NO OTHER JESUS WHO HAS PREACHERS. Paul was speaking metaphorically. This: 2 Cor 11:4 4 For if someone comes to you and [b]preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached[/b],NIV He is telling the Corintheans that if they hear someone preaching Jesus' name, but these teachings are contrary to Christ's own nature, then they are not preaching about the real Jesus, and are thus, Liars and Thieves. Ok, to make something like this simpler, let me rework my response. For the sake of arguement, you were right, and indeed, there was [i]some other Jesus[/i] who had [i]his own preachers[/i], Paul would speak of this 'other Jesus' at least two to three more time, and more accurately, given the model of orthodoxy Paul was, he'd have written an account of how he dealt with this false Jesus. Or some other Evangelist would've written. If they're was another Jesus trying to confuse teachings, they would've said so plainly, heck, there would be a passage on its own regarding how these false preachers were either defeated or converted. This passage is a general warning against Heresy.
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1576058' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:21 AM']Reyb, I've already explained about that verse Paul was talking about. [i]He's not talking of a spefic Jesus but of a metaphor for heresies false attributed to Jesus.[/i] Don't start this arguement again before I start reposting everything I've said on it.[/quote] [indent]Okay. This is what you are saying. Some preachers says Jesus is man. Others says Jesus is God. Still others says He is truly God and truly man. Is it not all those preachers are pointing to one Jesus? Why then the writer will say 'other Jesus' in that sense?[/indent]
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Lemme through out an example... #1 - Reyb starts a lot of topics on phatmass. #2 - Reyb starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass. Now both statements are referring to you; the same you. I will say only the first one is true, lets assume it is. I go and tell my family about you, and tell them #1. Now lets assume someone else tells my family about you on phatmass. They say that #2 is true. Then I write a letter to my family and I say "Beware those who preach a different Reyb" or "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Reyb other than the Reyb we preached". The statement makes perfect sense, and there is no need to assume there is more than one Reyb.
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1576077' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:53 AM']Lemme through out an example... #1 - Reyb starts a lot of topics on phatmass. #2 - Reyb starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass. Now both statements are referring to you; the same you. I will say only the first one is true, lets assume it is. I go and tell my family about you, and tell them #1. Now lets assume someone else tells my family about you on phatmass. They say that #2 is true. Then I write a letter to my family and I say "Beware those who preach a different Reyb" or "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Reyb other than the Reyb we preached". The statement makes perfect sense, and there is no need to assume there is more than one Reyb.[/quote] [indent]Your analogy is good if you will used reyb. But try to replace it by Jesus and it will never work out. Because no believer of Jesus will say 'Jesus starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass'. To make it clear, no believer of Jesus will ever say 'Jesus preach a useless teaching'. [/indent]
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 It seems to me that your argument is spread over 3-4 different topics. Is there some way you could post, one coherent argument here? I don't want to present a strawman, but this is what I gather your argument is... If there are these multiple Jesuses how do we know who the true one is? And if all the churches are referencing to the same 'historical' Jesus, then how can they all be wrong? Is this generally what you are arguing?
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1576083' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:07 AM'][indent]Your analogy is good if you will used reyb. But try to replace it by Jesus and it will never work out. Because no believer of Jesus will say 'Jesus starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass'. To make it clear, no believer of Jesus will ever say 'Jesus preach a useless teaching'. [/indent][/quote] But what if people believed Jesus was not actually god. There were certainly people who taught that. Or what about people who taught that Jesus was more militant, that they were to rise up. Or people that taught that these new believers needed to be circumcised.
Galloglasses Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 btw RKWright, I've already hammered the fact that the Historical Jesus did exist in the Bible Thread, he's starting the exact same arguement here with 'the other Jesus' idea, for some reason. [quote]But what if people believed Jesus was not actually god. There were certainly people who taught that. Or what about people who taught that Jesus was more militant, that they were to rise up. Or people that taught that these new believers needed to be circumcised.[/quote] Very subtle Ice Burn.
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Yea I kinda see that in this thread and the others...
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1576087' date='Jun 19 2008, 12:17 PM']But what if people believed Jesus was not actually god. There were certainly people who taught that. Or what about people who taught that Jesus was more militant, that they were to rise up. Or people that taught that these new believers needed to be circumcised.[/quote] [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1576170' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:22 PM']btw RKWright, I've already hammered the fact that the Historical Jesus did exist in the Bible Thread, he's starting the exact same arguement here with 'the other Jesus' idea, for some reason. Very subtle Ice Burn.[/quote] [quote name='rkwright' post='1576182' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:29 PM']Yea I kinda see that in this thread and the others...[/quote] [indent]I have said this in my previous post and I will say it again so that you may know I have no bad intention for being here. [post="1312672"]Thank you Lord Philip for being good to me and though you do not know me personally, you prayed for me and I am hoping you will always pray for me. I feel your good intentions – the more it weakens me to ask reasonable and valid questions which may hurt you in anyway. I wish, one day, Protestants will learn to listen to the arguments of Roman Priest and Bishops and vice-versa – setting aside small differences and religio-political-leadership. Today is the day, here in Phatmass[/post][/indent].
rkwright Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I don't think you have bad intentions at all, I'm sorry for my example using the term 'nonsensical'. I actually used that to demonstrate a 'false gospel' because so far I feel like your posts have not been nonsensical. Could you respond to my post #89, it may help facilitate the entire discussion.
reyb Posted June 20, 2008 Author Posted June 20, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1576086' date='Jun 19 2008, 12:15 PM']It seems to me that your argument is spread over 3-4 different topics. Is there some way you could post, one coherent argument here? I don't want to present a strawman, but this is what I gather your argument is... If there are these multiple Jesuses how do we know who the true one is? And if all the churches are referencing to the same 'historical' Jesus, then how can they all be wrong? Is this generally what you are arguing?[/quote] [indent]If there are these multiple Jesuses how do we know who the true one is? ------------------------------------------ Do not worry how to know who the true one is. Seek for the Truth and you will find it. [/indent] [indent]And if all the churches are referencing to the same 'historical' Jesus, then how can they all be wrong? ------------------------------------ Because they do no want to follow the Aposlte's instruction. Come together, Do not judge each other and wait for the lord to come. and he will come.[/indent]
Galloglasses Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 (edited) [quote name='reyb' post='1577373' date='Jun 20 2008, 09:34 AM'][indent]If there are these multiple Jesuses how do we know who the true one is?[/quote] The one thats answering your prayers. [quote]------------------------------------------ Do not worry how to know who the true one is. Seek for the Truth and you will find it. [/indent] [indent]And if all the churches are referencing to the same 'historical' Jesus, then how can they all be wrong?[/quote] Because the fault lies not with Jesus, but with the other Churches themselves. Heresy. [quote]------------------------------------ Because they do no want to follow the Aposlte's instruction. Come together, Do not judge each other and wait for the lord to come. and he will come.[/indent][/quote] We already do that. Which is why we are not compromising our teachings to suit the Protestants. Doesn't mean we should not defend the truth that is within us when we are challenged. To walk away from confrontation is Honourable, to fight to defend is Noble. Edited June 20, 2008 by Galloglasses
reyb Posted June 21, 2008 Author Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1577618' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:06 PM']The one thats answering your prayers. Because the fault lies not with Jesus, but with the other Churches themselves. Heresy. We already do that. Which is why we are not compromising our teachings to suit the Protestants. Doesn't mean we should not defend the truth that is within us when we are challenged. To walk away from confrontation is Honourable, to fight to defend is Noble.[/quote] [indent]Can you please tell me where in the scripture, this instruction of the Aposltes that you are saying? (from where you said 'we already do that'?[/indent]
Jnorm888 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) [quote name='reyb' post='1348983' date='Aug 3 2007, 07:05 PM'][indent]The subject of all faith, belief and controversies in Christianity and even other religion like Islam is Jesus himself. As some sayings of story- teller, the coming of Jesus is best story ever told in the history of humanity, may I ask, is there really a solid evidence of Jesus’ existence besides the Holy Scripture?[/indent][/quote] As takin from my blog: [quote][size=3]"Did Jesus really exist? Dispite the obvious answer to the question, I still find some Atheists and agnostics on myspace that believe he never existed, and that outside of the Bible there is no evidence that he actually existed. If you ever run into any silly comments like that just mention: Josephus. He mentions Jesus and his brother James, now some Atheists will try to deny that by saying, it was christian forgery by christian monks, but the truth is the first christian monk was Saint Anthony. And he lived around 270 A.D. And people knew of Josephus's mentioning of Saint James and Jesus long before then. Alot of modern scholars .......even some Jewish ones believe that those statements were indeed authentic. One can also mention The early second century Roman historian Tacitus. He not only mentions Jesus, but also mentions that He was put to death by Pontius Pilate, the procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius Ceasor. One can also add to that the pagan critic Celsus. Origen gave rejoinders for his arguments so we still have what this christian hating pagan had to say......and he never doubted the existence of Jesus. So where does this doubt come from? It comes from Germany!!! In the mid to late 18 hundreds the German highercritical/philosophical naturalistic scholar [b]Bruno Bauer[/b] invented the argument that Jesus never existed. The idea is less than 150 years old. It was a naturalistic reconstruction of history. Today, most modern scholars will not risk their reputation by saying something silly like "Jesus never existed". Most modern scholars believe Jesus was a real historical person. So if you ever run into someone that thinks Jesus never existed....... give them the facts, pray for them, so that God will open up a window of oppurtinity by giving them eyes to see & ears to hear, then share Jesus with them so they too can know His ever-Existence."[/size][/quote] JNORM888 Edited June 23, 2008 by jnorm888
Galloglasses Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) [quote name='reyb' post='1578478' date='Jun 21 2008, 08:47 AM'][indent]Can you please tell me where in the scripture, this instruction of the Aposltes that you are saying? (from where you said 'we already do that'?[/indent][/quote] (1 Peter 3:15)"Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you." This is why we so vigorously defend our claim to legitimacy and authority. And denounce heresy as what it is; lies. And: (Matthew 7:1, 2) "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." We judge others according to the truth. So in turn God will Judge us in accordance with the truth. We leave them alone if they do not want the truth, we are not allowed to exact wrath upon them. But this does not stop us from tearing into their arguements when they, or anyone else, sees fit to challenge us. Now don't be confused, you often hear people say only the first part of this verse, ""Do not judge, or you too will be judged." While ignoring the rest of it. To expose Christians as hypocritical in their arguements. The passage is not telling us not to judge, but be careful when judging. (It is impossible for a human being not to judge other human beings on SOMETHING. Otherwise we become passive. For example, if we where not allowed to Judge others, we could not judge a criminal) Edited June 23, 2008 by Galloglasses
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