Historical Jesus

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1443773' date='Jan 9 2008, 06:04 PM']There is only one Jesus, as listed in the New Testament and discussed by the Early Church Fathers.[/quote]

[post="1361823"]But there is another Jesus according to Apostle Paul.[/post]

[Guest]

[quote name='reyb' post='1444259' date='Jan 10 2008, 08:16 PM'][post="1361823"]But there is another Jesus according to Apostle Paul.[/post][/quote]


rey b i found the scripture for you.
notice how paul is talking about preachers tryen to profit off of jesus hence preaching another jesus.
i would liken that alot today to some of the preaches not teaching Gods word but rather trying to profit off of it and not dealing with sin and repentence and the reality of hell......



this is out of 2nd corithians verse 11


If only you would put up with a little foolishness from me! Please put up with me.
2
3 For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of God, since I betrothed you to one husband to present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve 4 by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ.
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For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus 5 than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.
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6 For I think that I am not in any way inferior to these "superapostles."
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Even if I am untrained in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. 7
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8 Did I make a mistake when I humbled myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge?
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I plundered other churches by accepting from them in order to minister to you.
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And when I was with you and in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my needs. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.
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By the truth of Christ in me, this boast of mine shall not be silenced in the regions of Achaia.
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9 And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!
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And what I do I will continue to do, in order to end this pretext of those who seek a pretext for being regarded as we are in the mission of which they boast.
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10 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.
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And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
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So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
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11 12 13 I repeat, no one should consider me foolish; but if you do, accept me as a fool, so that I too may boast a little.
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What I am saying I am not saying according to the Lord but as in foolishness, in this boastful state.
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Since many boast according to the flesh, I too will boast.
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For you gladly put up with geniuses, since you are wise yourselves.
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14 For you put up with it if someone enslaves you, or devours you, or gets the better of you, or puts on airs, or slaps you in the face.
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To my shame I say that we were too weak! 15 But what anyone dares to boast of (I am speaking in foolishness) I also dare.
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16 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.
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17 Are they ministers of Christ? (I am talking like an insane person.) I am still more, 18 with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, far worse beatings, and numerous brushes with death.
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Five times at the hands of the Jews I received forty lashes minus one.
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Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I passed a night and a day on the deep;
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on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my own race, dangers from Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers at sea, dangers among false brothers;
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in toil and hardship, through many sleepless nights, through hunger and thirst, through frequent fastings, through cold and exposure.
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And apart from these things, there is the daily pressure upon me of my anxiety for all the churches.
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Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is led to sin, and I am not indignant?
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19 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
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20 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows, he who is blessed forever, that I do not lie.
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At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus, in order to seize me,
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but I was lowered in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.

[reyb]

so you are saying
'i would liken that alot today to some of the preaches not teaching Gods word but rather trying to profit off of it and not dealing with sin and repentence and the reality of hell......'
---------------------------------------------
Okay suppose there are preacher/s of this kind - preaching for money.
Question: Is he not referring to this historical Jesus just like the other 'good' preachers or priest you know?

[Galloglasses]

Oh, so this is what you mean by the 'other' Jesus.

You are deeply confused. Paul is NOT saying there is another Jesus in the actual sense. Its metaphorical. Paul is saying that if someone preaches something to You, In Jesus' Name, that is contrary to scripture, then that Person is not preaching in the Name of God's Only Son, Jesus Christ. Not an actual 'other Jesus', but flase teachings 'attributed to Jesus' which are so different it is as if they come from 'some other Jesus'

You think the Catholic Church is founded on theachings of another Jesus?

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573168' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:55 PM']Oh, so this is what you mean by the 'other' Jesus.

You are deeply confused. Paul is NOT saying there is another Jesus in the actual sense. Its metaphorical. Paul is saying that if someone preaches something to You, In Jesus' Name, that is contrary to scripture, then that Person is not preaching in the Name of God's Only Son, Jesus Christ. Not an actual 'other Jesus', but flase teachings 'attributed to Jesus' which are so different it is as if they come from 'some other Jesus'

You think the Catholic Church is founded on theachings of another Jesus?[/quote]
---------------------------------------------
[indent]A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a name or descriptive word or phrase is transferred to an object or action different from, but analogous to, that to which it is literally applicable; an instance of this, a metaphorical expression. It is a thing considered as representative of some other (usu. abstract) thing; a symbol (from Oxford dictionary).

To paraphrase what you have been stated and since you said that Apostle Paul used a metaphorical statement when he mentioned ‘other Jesus’ in 2 Cor 11:4, you are simply saying, he is not really trying to say that there is another Jesus but false teachers preaches a different gospel other than that of the Apostle although they attributed it to the same Jesus Christ.

Therefore, true and false preachers are looking at the same Jesus but they preach differently. One is in accordance with teaching of Christ and his Apostles while others are not.

Following your thought, let us do some example. We know Roman Catholic Church, Protestants and other Christian denominations specifically oneness and Trinitarian groups, preach different teachings or gospel to one another and usually against each other but, they are all looking at the same Jesus Christ, the historical Jesus.

Now, if that historical Jesus is the true Jesus Christ then the entire Christianity, whether oneness and Trinitarians, must be blessed by the same Holy Spirit since all of them confess ‘Jesus is Lord’ as it is written in 1 Cor 12:3.

[indent][color="#FF0000"]3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord ," except by the Holy Spirit.[/color] [/indent]NIV

Hence, if all of you are really blessed by the Holy Spirit; what is the reason for being not united in heart and mind in knowing and teaching about him as promised in John 14:25-27? Why there are too many dissensions and factions among you considering you are all looking at the same Jesus Christ, reading the same bible and having the same Holy Spirit?


It is written in 2 Cor 11:1-6,

[indent][color="#FF0000"]1 I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. [/color]NIV[/indent]

Question: Do Apostle Paul really speak metaphorically as you have explained earlier in the above verse? Or He is speaking plainly that false teachers are preaching another Jesus different from the Jesus they are saying.[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

You aren't familiar with the word, 'heretic' are you?

The reason we are not 'united in heart' is because some of us. And yes, I am going to blame protestants directly for this, [b]'don't want'[/b] to be united in heart out of fear. Otherwise, they wouldn't have seperated from the Roman Catholic Church in the first place. You seem to think it is somehow our fault that The Christian denominations are not united? How can it be our fault when, after several councils, the Catholic Church insipitely set out to rid itself of corruption which originally lead to the seperation, and the Protestant Churches STILL do not want to unite with us? its not our fault the power and authority they feel they have gained after the reformation makes [b]them[/b] afraid to unite. We are blessed by the same God, but this God is not an idiot. He does not want seperate teachings going about, (heresies), which is essentially what protestants are, heretics. These Heretics, while Blessed by God, fervently believe that Roman Catholicism is inherently wrong about its assertion as the one true Church with the True teachings of the True Jesus of the Gospels. "He makes the Sun rise on Good men and evil men alike" THEY believe that the Catholic Church's teachings are corrupted.

Now this is where our very age comes into play. The Catholic Church's teachings, because they are so bloody old and link directly to the Early Church, (founded by Christ), CAN'T be corrupted because they haven't changed. You say Age doesn't matter, this is a lie on your part, if it didn't matter, as you say, none of the denominations would be argueing about WHEN they're translations and interpretations of the Gospel were made. Henceforth age is important, and many Protestants claim their churches were really successers of the Early Church despite a 1000 year gap. Be reasonable here. If age did not matter, your arguement can still go forward, but since it does matter, you cannot argue against the Chruch's claim to succeeding from the early Church because, quite frankly, its a historical fact that it did. Henceforth it is the Church Founded by The Historical Jesus and why it calls itself A Historical Religion. READ a history book, or at least several.

You think US deceived? Have you no idea of human nature? Because Protestants wanted to be free of the Catholic Church, they wanted to be free from the strict discipline, sound doctrines and teachings of the One True Church. It is them you should be argueing against. they're the ones deceived by their heresies.

Yes he is speaking metaphorically. Because if he was referring to an actual OTHER Jesus, he would've mentioned him at least more then once. Therefore, he was referring to heretical teachings attributed to Jesus which are so contradictory to Jesus' True nature, that they SEEm to come from someone else called Jesus. LIKE THE GNOSTICS FOR EXAMPLE.

Oh. Wait a minute. THERE WAS ANOTHER JESUS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE. He was called. [b]Bar-Jesus[/b], he was a Jewish Mage who was manipulating a king as his right hand man. He died, by the way. (Acts 13: 6-12) And he was not a teacher, just a corrupted evil fool who was manipulating the political infrastructure of his kingdom to his own will.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Galloglasses

[reyb]

[indent]But the question is – Do you accept that these Protestants are blessed by the same Holy Spirit as that of the Catholics since all of you confess that ‘Jesus is Lord’?
[/indent]

[CatherineM]

When my kids played little league, I did videotaping of their games for awhile. Then I stopped because I was only "seeing" the narrow field inside the camera. My human eye could instead take in the fullness of color and light and action that was taking place. Protestantism is like that. Yes, they worship the same Lord, but they only see a narrow, diluted vision. We are allowed to and blessed by seeing all his fullness of light.

[Galloglasses]

Yes. They are blessed by the same Holy Spirit.

But I do not accept that they are [b]lead [/b]by the Holy Spirit.

Case in point: The Westboro Baptist Church.

For the record, technically everyone's blessed by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean they accept the Blessings. "He makes the Sun rise on Good men and evil men alike" I know what you are trying to get at here, if we are all blessed by the Holy, Spirit, you think we should all just get along as simple as that. In such a case, you have no idea just how complex Theology is.

Oh, wait a minute, that isn't the question. THIS IS THE BLOODY QUESTION:
[i]"The subject of all faith, belief and controversies in Christianity and even other religion like Islam is Jesus himself. As some sayings of story- teller, the coming of Jesus is best story ever told in the history of humanity, may I ask, is there really a solid evidence of Jesus’ existence besides the Holy Scripture?"[/i]

And, like I have already proven through reason on your 'The Bible' Thread, Jesus did exist. The Jews, the Heretical Gnostics, and Islam recognise, not only Jesus' existence, but alos His own Mother, Mary's existence. As others before me have pointed out. Even SECULAR scholars acknowledge that Christ existed, Pliny the Elder makes an account of Him.

Your original question is answered, and your new question is moot.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1573834' date='Jun 17 2008, 11:11 AM']When my kids played little league, I did videotaping of their games for awhile. Then I stopped because I was only "seeing" the narrow field inside the camera. My human eye could instead take in the fullness of color and light and action that was taking place. Protestantism is like that. Yes, they worship the same Lord, but they only see a narrow, diluted vision. We are allowed to and blessed by seeing all his fullness of light.[/quote]

Werd.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Galloglasses

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573835' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:14 PM']Yes. They are blessed by the same Holy Spirit.

But I do not accept that they are [b]lead [/b]by the Holy Spirit.

Case in point: The Westboro Baptist Church.

For the record, technically everyone's blessed by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean they accept the Blessings. "He makes the Sun rise on Good men and evil men alike" I know what you are trying to get at here, if we are all blessed by the Holy, Spirit, you think we should all just get along as simple as that. In such a case, you have no idea just how complex Theology is.

Oh, wait a minute, that isn't the question. THIS IS THE BLOODY QUESTION:
[i]"The subject of all faith, belief and controversies in Christianity and even other religion like Islam is Jesus himself. As some sayings of story- teller, the coming of Jesus is best story ever told in the history of humanity, may I ask, is there really a solid evidence of Jesus’ existence besides the Holy Scripture?"[/i]

And, like I have already proven through reason on your 'The Bible' Thread, Jesus did exist. The Jews, the Heretical Gnostics, and Islam recognise, not only Jesus' existence, but alos His own Mother, Mary's existence. As others before me have pointed out. Even SECULAR scholars acknowledge that Christ existed, Pliny the Elder makes an account of Him.

Your original question is answered, and your new question is moot.
Werd.[/quote]

[indent]It is written in John 14:25-27

[color="#FF0000"]25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
NIV[/color]

Again, if I will follow your thought that the Protestants are ‘blessed’ but not ‘lead’ by the Holy Spirit, then the above verses are not working with them. You are simply saying, It works only to Catholics.

1 Cor 2:10ff

[color="#FF0000"]The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit , expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. [/color]

Again, the above verses do not apply to them since they are not ‘lead’ although ‘blessed’ by this same Holy Spirit. It works only to Catholics.

Is this what you are really saying of ‘blessed’ but not ‘lead’?[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

You have completely ignored human bloody nature? Yes, they are blessed by the Holy Spirit but there are other forces at work.

Satan and his temptaions for one. If they were being 'lead' by the Holy Spirit, they wouldn't have seperated from the Catholic Church in the first bloody place. They were tempted away by hersy. So, yeah, The Catholic Church is lead by the Holy Spirit, its probably the only Church that hasn't compromised, doctrinally, on its teachings. And even back when it was lead by corrupt Popes, these corrupt Popes never, not one of them, changed Church teachings when they were in the one position to do so.

Also, did it every occur to you that they are being Blessed by the Holy Spirit but reject His guidance? If it hasn't, and you haven't consider Satan and his temptations, the failure of Human Nature, the fact of Free Will to choose or not to choose to obey God. Then you are technically saying sin does not exist.

The sun rises on Good and bad men alike. Did it every occur to you that some of these men hate (don't hate, appreciate) the sun?

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573898' date='Jun 17 2008, 01:22 PM']You have completely ignored human bloody nature? Yes, they are blessed by the Holy Spirit but there are other forces at work.

Satan and his temptaions for one. If they were being 'lead' by the Holy Spirit, they wouldn't have seperated from the Catholic Church in the first bloody place. They were tempted away by hersy. So, yeah, The Catholic Church is lead by the Holy Spirit, its probably the only Church that hasn't compromised, doctrinally, on its teachings. And even back when it was lead by corrupt Popes, these corrupt Popes never, not one of them, changed Church teachings when they were in the one position to do so.

Also, did it every occur to you that they are being Blessed by the Holy Spirit but reject His guidance? If it hasn't, and you haven't consider Satan and his temptations, the failure of Human Nature, the fact of Free Will to choose or not to choose to obey God. Then you are technically saying sin does not exist.

The sun rises on Good and bad men alike. Did it every occur to you that some of these men hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) the sun?[/quote]

[indent]Okay suppose Roman Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ and in the Catechism, there is a teaching that ‘Outside of the Church there is no salvation’. Since we are talking about Protestants who are ‘blessed’ but not ‘lead ‘by the same Holy Spirit as that of the Catholics, - for them not to recognize the Catholic Church as the true Church of Christ is a ‘failure’ or ‘fall-away’ from the Truth.

Now, why then Apostle Paul said in Heb 6:4-6, it is impossible?

[indent]4[color="#FF0000"] It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [/color]NIV[/indent]
He says it is impossible….who shared in the Holy Sprit….if they fall away. [/indent]

[Galloglasses]

He is talking about the Saints. it is impossible. But then he says:

6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, [b]because to their loss [/b]they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. NIV

Here he is referring to those who have fallen away. They are to be brought back to Repentence because [b]to their Loss [/b]they are sinning.

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573936' date='Jun 17 2008, 02:08 PM']He is talking about the Saints. it is impossible. But then he says:

6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, [b]because to their loss [/b]they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. NIV

Here he is referring to those who have fallen away. They are to be brought back to Repentence because [b]to their Loss [/b]they are sinning.[/quote]

[indent]Please read it again and listen carefully to what Apostle Paul is saying. [/indent]

[Autumn Dusk]

Jesus was a good person. He said alot of good stuff. Many people wrote it down...but we only accept 4 versions...and they aren't all the same. WOW...thats factual.