What If...

[Resurrexi]

Yes, it does, but the Church often (though not always) follows Thomisitc theology.

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1352638' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:10 PM']Yes, it does, but the Church often (though not always) follows Thomisitc theology.[/quote]
Could you produce documentation of where the Church makes an official dogmatic stance on this issue?

St. Thomas himself does not give a definitive answer, but aknowledges that there are differing opinions:
[quote]I answer that, There are different opinions about this question. For some say that even if man had not sinned, the Son of Man would have become incarnate. Others assert the contrary, and seemingly our assent ought rather to be given to this opinion.

For such things as spring from God's will, and beyond the creature's due, can be made known to us only through being revealed in the Sacred Scripture, in which the Divine Will is made known to us. Hence, since everywhere in the Sacred Scripture the sin of the first man is assigned as the reason of Incarnation, it is more in accordance with this to say that the work of Incarnation was ordained by God as a remedy for sin; so that, had sin not existed, Incarnation would not have been. And yet the power of God is not limited to this; even had sin not existed, God could have become incarnate.[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1352649' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:21 PM']Could you produce documentation of where the Church makes an official dogmatic stance on this issue?[/quote]

Well, there's the fact that the two books placed on the altar at the Council of Trent were the Scriptures and Summa Theologiae... and yes, that actually happened. it's somewhere in the CE

[quote name='Socrates' post='1352649' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:21 PM']St. Thomas himself does not give a definitive answer, but aknowledges that there are differing opinions:[/quote]


[quote]For such things as spring from God's will, and beyond the creature's due, can be made known to us only through being revealed in the Sacred Scripture, in which the Divine Will is made known to us. [b]Hence, since everywhere in the Sacred Scripture the sin of the first man is assigned as the reason of Incarnation, it is more in accordance with this to say that the work of Incarnation was ordained by God as a remedy for sin; so that, had sin not existed, Incarnation would not have been. [/b]And yet the power of God is not limited to this; even had sin not existed, God could have become incarnate.[/quote]

Edited August 8, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Resurrexi]

By the way, here is the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia I was talking about:

[quote name='Catholic Encyclopedia article "St. Thomas Aquinas"']But the chief and special glory of Thomas, one which he has shared with none of the Catholic doctors, is that the Fathers of Trent made it part of the order of the conclave to lay upon the altar, together with the code of Sacred Scripture and the decrees of the Supreme Pontiffs, the Summa of Thomas Aquinas, whence to seek counsel, reason, and inspiration. Greater influence than this no man could have.

Before this section is closed mention should be made of two books widely known and highly esteemed, which were inspired by and drawn from the writings of St. Thomas. The Catechism of the Council of Trent, composed by disciples of the Angelic Doctor, is in reality a compendium of his theology, in convenient form for the use of parish priests. Dante's "Divina Commedia" has been called "the Summa of St. Thomas in verse", and commentators trace the great Florentine poet's divisions and descriptions of the virtues and vices to the "Secunda Secundae".
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm[/url][/quote]

[kateri05]

st. thomas is NOT the magisterium. just because he taught something does NOT make it the default teaching of the Church. the Summa does not equal dogmatic statements.

this applies to all things, not just this discussion.

<<gets off soapbox.>> sorry i work with a lot of thomists and St. Thomas is an awesome saint and Doctor of the Church and the Church is better for him, but it is SUPER important to remember that he is NOT the end all and be all of Church teaching and doctrine.

ok, i'm done now

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1352653' date='Aug 7 2007, 11:26 PM']Well, there's the fact that the two books placed on the altar at the Council of Trent were the Scriptures and Summa Theologiae... and yes, that actually happened. it's somewhere in the CE[/quote]

[quote]For such things as spring from God's will, and beyond the creature's due, can be made known to us only through being revealed in the Sacred Scripture, in which the Divine Will is made known to us. Hence, since everywhere in the Sacred Scripture the sin of the first man is assigned as the reason of Incarnation, it is more in accordance with this to say that the work of Incarnation was ordained by God as a remedy for sin; so that, had sin not existed, Incarnation would not have been. [b]And yet the power of God is not limited to this; even had sin not existed, God could have become incarnate[/b].[/quote]

Yet St. Thomas also says that God could have become Incarnate without sin in the world.

Whether He would have is open to speculation.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1352712' date='Aug 8 2007, 04:19 AM']st. thomas is NOT the magisterium. just because he taught something does NOT make it the default teaching of the Church. the Summa does not equal dogmatic statements.

this applies to all things, not just this discussion.

<<gets off soapbox.>> sorry i work with a lot of thomists and St. Thomas is an awesome saint and Doctor of the Church and the Church is better for him, but it is SUPER important to remember that he is NOT the end all and be all of Church teaching and doctrine.

ok, i'm done now [/quote]

But you have to admit that quite often the Magisterium often uses his theology more that the theology than others which makes him a good source if you'd like to argue a theological point.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1353138' date='Aug 8 2007, 06:46 PM']Yet St. Thomas also says that God could have become Incarnate without sin in the world.

Whether He would have is open to speculation.[/quote]

But it is "more in accordance with this [Scripture] ... that, had sin not existed, Incarnation would not have been."

[kateri05]

it is St. THomas's [i]opinion [/i]that it is "more in accordance with Scripture." you are free to disagree