Ufos, Demonology, And The Occult

[FattyBones]

"segregated, confused, and faithful"

First, a leap of logic: faith is the condition of not being confused. If you are confused, it is because you have little faith. That is not preaching, you can derive this from the meaning of the words. Faith = to beleive something with certainty. Confused = to not know what to believe.

Segregated maybe, but also charitable, moral, and hopeful and victorious during adversity. Judaism is one of the oldest religions in the world (Abraham was circumcised with a sharp stone, not a bronze knife -- that's how old.) and Christians dominate the world, economically and militarily (if that's a word). Muslims, who worship the same God, control the oil, and used to control the trade routes, also, they are maybe the fastest growing religion in the world.

---------

I have experimented with the occult, and with drugs, and I'd feel derelict in my Christian duty if I didn't join in saying these were bad. If you want a worst-case scenario, read any protestant fundamentalist site. Every time you seek an occult power, or invite an occult being to you, you are calling a demon.

There is an old Irish story about a pagan king who's family was Christian. He fell in love with a fairy who hated him for whatever reason (I think his army took their land or something, not the point). She said she'd "be with him" if he'd get all the Christians out of the house first. He does, and she is able to use her powers finally to the fullest, and causes the house to burn and hellhounds to attack him, and he and his pagan bodyguards die.

That's basically the point of the occult from the demonic perspective. It gets you away from God, where you are vulnerable to attack. Whether your fellow pagans do the attacking, or the devil does directly, either way you're screwed. One of the many benefits of God is that He protects you from magic and the devil. (He also protects against illness and other misfortunes if you ask Him to, that's a major reason why people pray.)

Occultists often use drugs to get in touch with the spirit world. The spirit world is not a place you want to be, for reasons stated above. Drugs mess up your reasoning skills, which leads you to do bad things out of stupidity.

As far as Aliens, I'd buy that they're demons. If they aren't real they are a lie, and who is the father of lies again? If they are real, i'm judging by the anal probing that they are obviously evil.

[carrdero]

[quote]Fatty Bones writes: First, a leap of logic: faith is the condition of not being confused. If you are confused, it is because you have little faith.[/quote]
If one is confused it is because one does not have enough understanding. When one does not have understanding, one requires knowledge not fatih.

[quote]Fatty Bones writes That is not preaching, you can derive this from the meaning of the words. Faith = to beleive something with certainty. Confused = to not know what to believe.[/quote]
And when the hope and expectancy of a certain belief that has become faithful is proven false and incorrect where does this leave one? Disappointed and once again confused. Faith is neither trust or Truth and if one cannot rely on it, why practice it? Is not the concept and conclusion of the core belief enough?

[quote]Fatty Bones writes: Segregated maybe, but also charitable, moral, and hopeful and victorious during adversity.[/quote]
One does not need faith or to belong to a group to become charitable or moral.
[quote]Fatty Bones writes: I have experimented with the occult, and with drugs, and I'd feel derelict in my Christian duty if I didn't join in saying these were bad. If you want a worst-case scenario, read any protestant fundamentalist site. Every time you seek an occult power, or invite an occult being to you, you are calling a demon.[/quote]

There is really no evidence that drugs and the occult are used by the entities perpetrating the UFO phenomenon.

[quote]Fatty Bones writes: There is an old Irish story about a pagan king who's family was Christian. He fell in love with a fairy who hated him for whatever reason (I think his army took their land or something, not the point). She said she'd "be with him" if he'd get all the Christians out of the house first. He does, and she is able to use her powers finally to the fullest, and causes the house to burn and hellhounds to attack him, and he and his pagan bodyguards die.

That's basically the point of the occult from the demonic perspective. It gets you away from God, where you are vulnerable to attack. Whether your fellow pagans do the attacking, or the devil does directly, either way you're screwed. One of the many benefits of God is that He protects you from magic and the devil. (He also protects against illness and other misfortunes if you ask Him to, that's a major reason why people pray.)

Occultists often use drugs to get in touch with the spirit world. The spirit world is not a place you want to be, for reasons stated above. Drugs mess up your reasoning skills, which leads you to do bad things out of stupidity.

As far as Aliens, I'd buy that they're demons. If they aren't real they are a lie, and who is the father of lies again? If they are real, i'm judging by the anal probing that they are obviously evil.[/quote]
If it is evil we are trying to discern.


[color="#000080"]Exodus
15:6
22:24
32:35
Leviticus
14:34
26:16-39

Numbers
16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
16:47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
16:48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.
16:49 [b][i]Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred[/i][/b], beside them that died about the matter of Korah.[/color]

I can’t speak for everyone, but I would likely prefer the anal probe.

Edited August 17, 2007 by carrdero

[FattyBones]

I would prefer not to be enslaved by the Egyptians. The plagues were justified retaliation. And that story is evidence for believers being victorious in adversity, is it not? Faith in itself is not necessarily good: the egyptians had faith in Ra. Believers in the God of Abraham have many observable advantages throughout history. Pagans have what? Fireworks, consumer electronics and a really cool way of fistfighting. People who beleive in God control the money and weapons. As your chosen story shows, having the wrong beleifs can be fatal.

You will not be disappointed if you have faith in something that is true. I have a lot of evidence for my beliefs, in the form of logical arguments and answered prayers. I doubt that my faith is misplaced.

People who have faith are not confused. The word confused denotes the condition of not knowing what to believe. Even if you are faithful to a wrong idea, you are still not confused.

It is true you don't need religion to be moral, but it helps alot.

The fact that drugs screw with you was not meant as evidence for UFO=demon, it was just a warning to those thinking of taking up the habit. But, many UFO people are involved in the occult. They meditate in crop circles and channel aliens.

Why don't you post your beleifs, so I can play devils advocate too? That might be fairer.

Edited August 18, 2007 by FattyBones

[jeffpugh]

Good call, FattyBones. I hope you don't mind if I try and get a foothold in this argument, too? You seem to be holding your end pretty well, though.

[carrdero]

[quote]FattyBones writes: I would prefer not to be enslaved by the Egyptians.[/quote]
It is difficult for me to understand the kind of life the Isrealites must have led during their enslavement but I do not see the alternative that they were offered to be that different.
[quote]FattyBones writes: The plagues were justified retaliation.[/quote]
I’m not quite sure how to respond to this.
[quote]FattyBones writes:And that story is evidence for believers being victorious in adversity, is it not?[/quote]
It is a tale of “out of the frying pan, into the fire”. The Isrealites just traded one powerful god for a more powerful, more wrathful God. A clear example of the Stockholm Syndrome. This "victory" cost too many lives, (some of them innocent) and lasted for 40 years with absolutely no favorable outcome for Moses. This situation could have been handled more considerately and more efficiently from an Almighty Being claiming omnipotence.
[quote]FattyBones writes: Believers in the God of Abraham have many observable advantages throughout history.[/quote]
Yes but many have not had the dubious honor of being asked by a Supreme Being to murder their son as a sacrificial offering.
[quote]FattyBones writes:As your chosen story shows, having the wrong beleifs can be fatal.[/quote]
As my story shows there is no choice or freedom that comes with that kind of believing and it is a familiar story; obey or die. Even with this "self-proclaimed god" continually in their sight, many followers of Moses remained unconvinced. I would suspect that this was in the way that this "god" behaved and not because of the believing capacities of what the Isrealites expected or hoped how a Loving benevolent Being would react. In other words it was a belief based on fear, not Love.
[quote]FattyBones writes: The fact that drugs screw with you was not meant as evidence for UFO=demon, it was just a warning to those thinking of taking up the habit.[/quote]
And this is good advice. I do not know how many young Phatmass members there are compared to the older generation but this is not a good habit for any Christian to consider no matter one’s age. I am just glad there are a few members available to share their experinces.
[quote]FattyBones writes: But, many UFO people are involved in the occult.[/quote]
You are most likely thinking of the “contactees”.

[b]Contactees differ somewhat from abductees in that:[/b]

Contactees usually are accepting of their situation and go willingly along with the entities.

Contactees do not have to physically see UFOs or any entities to still receive messages from sources claiming to be other-worldly.

Contactees usually feel they have been chosen, mostly claiming to be spiritually enlightened or altered by the experience. They usually consciously remember the prophetic messages and predictions for humankind that the entities have given them.

[b]Abductees differ somewhat from contactees:[/b]

Abductees do not embrace their visitations. The experience is terrifying for them and they feel more like victims. They are traumatized from their experience as opposed to feeling spiritually enlightened. They do not welcome repeated visitations.

Abductees’ captors do not inform them well, many are not given any information or prophetic messages or future predictions. If any conversation takes place it is usually suppressed with the experience and comes out through hypnotic prompting.

Abductees do not want the recognition, they shy away from the media and other people and usually withdraw within themselves until something triggers the memory or they seek professional assistance.
[quote]FattyBones writes:They meditate in crop circles and channel aliens.[/quote]

That’s nothing, if you think that is bizarre, I have read and researched some contactees who have actually offered animal sacrifices to these entities and have erected alters and burned incense and built wooden containers covered in gold to carry rocks and rods.
[quote]FattyBones writes: Why don't you post your beleifs, so I can play devils advocate too? That might be fairer.[/quote]
Phatmass doesn’t present too much of an opportunity for me to just list my beleifs which is why most members have only been able to get them in spurts or when these beleifs relate to a specific debate topic but if you are really interested and with your permission, I can send you a link through private messaging.

Edited August 18, 2007 by carrdero

[jeffpugh]

How doesn't phatmass allow you to properly present your beliefs? I'm intently listening. I know others are too.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1362113' date='Aug 18 2007, 05:58 PM']How doesn't phatmass allow you to properly present your beliefs? I'm intently listening. I know others are too.[/quote]
I am not insinuating that my beliefs are suppressed or unwelcomed on Phatmass but that the opportunity and time to present them are limited. If one notices, I try to keep my debates limited to only discussions where I could provide insight of what I know. Most of my other time is spent reading or learning other threads and familiarizing myself with the sight. My other time on Phatmass is spent cruising and contributing to The Open Mic and Muzic, Flicks and Media Lounge threads.

[Guest]

u've yet to really respond to me ??
you say you used to be catholic
how did you lose your faith ??
y dont you trust in the lord no more ??
y are you so nieve to believe satan doesnt exist ???
y are you on a catholic website if you have no faith in the lord ???
i pray that you are about to regain your faith
i was where you were
i was in the occult
GOD is good......give him a shot
experience how his love and his assurence for salvation feels....
its the best feeling in the world....Godbless bro

[carrdero]

[quote]Delivery Boy writes: u've yet to really respond to me ??
you say you used to be catholic
how did you lose your faith ??[/quote]
I didn’t misplace my faith, I transferred it for reasoning.
[quote]Delivery Boy writes: y are you so nieve to believe satan doesnt exist ???[/quote]
I think you might have read too much into that.
[quote]Carrdero writes: If I ever actually believed in the existence of a BEing as deceptive as Satan…[/quote]
I am not discounting the belief that a BEIng called Satan exists, I am reasoning the belief that Satan may not be as deceptive as some people understand this BEing to be. When we compare the acts of Satan to other deities in the Bible, no one racks up the body count bigger, better and higher than the BEing called Jehovah. Taunting and temptation from a mischievous imp I can handle but being in the line of a vengeful, wrathful, murderous God doesn’t really afford one any opportunity.
[quote]Delivery Boy writes:y are you on a catholic website if you have no faith in the lord ???[/quote]
I can’t stay away from The Open Mic and The Lame Boards.
[quote]Delivery Boy writes:i pray that you are about to regain your faith[/quote]
My beliefs do not require a support system.
[quote]Delivery Boy writes: i was where you were
i was in the occult[/quote]
I am not in the occult. Most of the researchers who investigate and examine the UFO Phenomenon, who document their findings and publish books to keep interested readers informed are also not occultists.
[quote]Delivery Boy writes: GOD is good......give him a shot
experience how his love and his assurence for salvation feels....
its the best feeling in the world....Godbless bro[/quote]
Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind.

Edited August 19, 2007 by carrdero

[FattyBones]

Out of the frying pan, into the fire? I admit that worshipping God has some apparent disadvantages, but they weren't slaves after they were emancipated -- they wandered in the desert and got free food.

Maybe you don't understand how bad it is to be a slave? Imagine the worst job you ever had, except you work sixteen hours a day, and you don't get paid. Sundays off? Nope. Labour day, Nope. Oh, and sometimes you get beaten and maybe even raped or killed.

Wouldn't you rather wander in the desert and get free food?


Back on topic . . .

As for the alien thing. Aliens scare the heck out of innocent people, then other people contact them looking for occult powers. That's sort of the same track that demons worked on when people believed in them. You haven't said anything to discredit what I said, you just divided UFO people into two groups.

Angel hair is hairy, and manna wasn't. Snow bears just as much resemblence as angel hair does. And, yeah, wierd stuff happens outside religion too. It is only miraculous when it comes from God, with a good purpose. If it comes from nowhere, to no purpose, it's just wierd stuff. If it comes from the other guy and serves a bad purpose, like the alien thing, it is demonic.

You say that you exchanged a belief in God for a belief in reason, but you profess a belief in reincarnation, that aliens are God, that God isn't interested in morality -- to name a few. How does reason guide you to a belief in reincarnation, for example? I'm not making fun, I really want to know. Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

You can PM me if you want, I'll try to figure out how to accept messages in a moment.

Edited August 20, 2007 by FattyBones

[carrdero]

[quote]FattyBones writes: Out of the frying pan, into the fire? I admit that worshipping God has some apparent disadvantages, but they weren't slaves after they were emancipated -- they wandered in the desert and got free food.[/quote]

[color="#000080"][b]Exodus 16:2[/b] And the entire assembly of the sons of Israel began to murmur against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness. 3 And the sons of Israel kept saying to them: “If only we had died by Jehovah’s hand in the land of Egypt while we were sitting by the pots of meat, while we were eating bread to satisfaction, because YOU have brought us out into this wilderness to put this whole congregation to death by famine.” [/color]

They were served “pixie-dust” and only after they “murmured” for it. It is clear that the sons of Isreal thought they had it much better where they were. The Isrealites also seemed to have been conditioned by these intelligent entities in sort of the way that we do with our pets when we give them treats.

As a sidenote it is also interesting to note that an all-knowing Jehovah seems to forget that people have to eat or to know that they were hungry before hearing (?!?!?!) their complaints.

[quote]FattyBones writes: Maybe you don't understand how bad it is to be a slave?[/quote]

Possibly but I can easily recognize when people are being exploited and manipulated and how people can be victimized because of their circumstances.

[quote]FattyBones writes: Wouldn't you rather wander in the desert and get free food?[/quote]
Would I be asked to commit murder for this?
[quote]FattyBones writes: Angel hair is hairy, and manna wasn't. Snow bears just as much resemblence as angel hair does.[/quote]

Like many aspects of the UFO Phenomenon, I am suspecting that these entities improved on the recipe.

[quote]FattyBones writes: And, yeah, wierd stuff happens outside religion too. It is only miraculous when it comes from God, with a good purpose.[/quote]

I am still trying to determine what good and miraculous purpose this God had for creating these people just to destroy them.

[quote]FattyBones writes: If it comes from the other guy and serves a bad purpose, like the alien thing, it is demonic.[/quote]
This phrase continues to be repeated yet researchers and scientists have not yet determined what the alien agenda is or whether these BEings or malevolent or benevolent. Over two centuries and with over a million documented encounters only a few occurances were reported where people have died in relation to their UFO encounters and many have never been satisfactorily concluded to have been caused by the phenomenon. This entity (or entities) that led the Isrealites out into the wilderness have enacted behaviors that can only be described as malevolent, evil, wicked and immoral by todays standards. If any other religion today imitated these events of wholesale slaughter, many people would abhor it, yet many readily believe and even glorify in these deeds calling it good and justifiable. It is at this time that I must ask, if you believe that the acts of the God entitled Jehovah are the behavior of a Loving, kind, benevolent BEing, what do you consider to be demonic behavior? What knowledge do you posses that these early Isrealites were indeed following a benevelont, Loving BEing as opposed to demonic entities?

Fatty Bones, please don’t think I am trying to pressure you but I am just trying to understand. I comprehend what you believe (that you believe that Moses and the Isrealites were led into the wilderness by the One True God) and how you believe (faithfully) now, I would just like to understand why.

[quote]FattyBones writes: You say that you exchanged a belief in God for a belief in reason,[/quote]
That is not true. I said that I transferred the practice of faith for the practice of reason.
[quote]FattyBones writes: but you profess a belief in reincarnation, that aliens are God,[/quote]
I profess a belief that we are all gods, that we begin existence as spiritual entities and choose ourselves to incarnate in physical existences. When we pass away in this existence, we may choose another experience, this opportunity would also be open to extraterrestrial entities.
[quote]FattyBones writes: that God isn't interested in morality – to name a few.[/quote]
From my understanding, knowledge and experience, GOD does not interfere with our physical lives and has no vested interest in human morality.
[quote]FattyBones writes: How does reason guide you to a belief in reincarnation, for example? I'm not making fun, I really want to know. Or are you just playing devil's advocate?[/quote]
I am not sure how the subject of reincarnation relates to the UFO phenomenon but from what I am to understand, a spiritual entity reincarnates for the experience and the purpose of a physical existence. The choice of this physical existence could be anything that can contain life and the choices are not exclusive to this planet. The purpose can be as varied as there are stars in the heavens. Not everyone chooses to reincarnate and there are some entities that have never incarnated "into" a physical existence. I believe that one of these entities that has never incarnated in a physical existence is GOD.

[color="#000080"]FattyBones writes: You can PM me if you want, I'll try to figure out how to accept messages in a moment.[/color]
[color="#FF00FF"]The error returned was:
You are not allowed to use the messenger feature on this board[/color]

You will have to go to my member profile, then look over to where it says "personal statement" on the right, click on the "http".

Edited August 20, 2007 by carrdero

[FattyBones]

I'm guessing that the Israelites were praying and complaining to get out of egypt the whole time they were there. God, in my experience, gives you what you ask for. He also is generally slow about things, giving just in time, rather than in advance.

You've probably heard the argument that God is not subject to human morals. A hurricane, a snowbank, or a dog usually isn't called evil. It's just humans and their works where it really applys, like "Microsoft is evil" (although they are really alot nicer than some other companies -- they give away stuff for free every day).

The other classic argument is a variant of the following. You're selling a house. Say you have a tree that's too dense. You cut it back. If trees feel at all, the tree probably feels sick and sore for a long period of time. Fortunately though, the tree now looks good to the next owners of the house, and they decide not to cut it down, like they were planning to. You saved the tree's life. Sometimes hardship has pleasant consequences.

As far as why I believe, the question of whether of not there is a God was one that was at the front of my mind for my whole life. I became an atheist, and engaged in alot of questionable behavior, until I became seriously ill. I always wondered why people believe. While hospitalized I was told that I probably would never fully recover. So I repeated the experiment that I learned in Sunday school and prayed to the God that I didn't believe in, on the off-chance I was wrong. Turned out that my prayers were answered, and I'm fully functional and in school, despite the fact, to quote my doctor "You should be on your knees thanking . . . God you can stand and walk, and do all the things that a normal person does." (the ". . ." is him checking whether I believe in God or not so he doesn't offend me)

I've prayed many prayers since then, and nearly all are answered, although rarely promptly, or in a manner that I would expect them to be answered. I've read the Bible, but as you can tell, I can't quote chapter and verse. Also, I've at many times thought that God was being mean, but things always turn out okay later. However, the question of whether God is good is not one I've had to deal with except in passing; I've learned to trust Him.

So that's the source of my faith, they call that "Anecdotal evidence" I suppose.

[Guest]

cardero

here's something God just shared with me

its way off topic....but i feel impelled to share it....

God knows everything.....the future the past and the present......

so

how can God be a loveing God then if he creates the devil and allows all these terrible things to happen ?? how can you believe and put your trust in such a God that would allow murder and tragedy ??

simple

the greatest gift he could give us.....

freewill.....

the choice to believe in him or reject him.......the choice to have faith and live forever and be forgiven of your sins...or the choice to reject him and be condemed and never remeber what it feels like to be with a loveing creator who loves you more then anything.......he created you in his image.....exhalted you above the angels.....

so back to the freewill........

if God knows who will love him and who will not love him and who will go to heaven and who will go to hell
then
how
is
this freewill ????

becuz

he knows allllllll........so he knows who's gonna do wut when and where......but that doesnt stop our freewill to choose.......it just means that God knows but we can still change our destiny at any time......

God told me that if he didnt know everything and know the future he would have never gave us freewill.......
y ?

becuz he loves USSSSSSSSSSSS TOOOOOOOO MUCHHHHHHHHHHHHH to ever chanch not haveing the chance to be with us forever and love us forever and give us everything that is good............

so if never given freewill.....then ya....all this stuff wouldnt be happening....the occult, demons, the devil...all of it......but man........what a gift from a creator who loved us enough to create us........and also gave us freewill to choose him or not ???? r u serious ??? praise God..........praise God for the chance to choose and feel and live......praise God for shedding his blood on a cross to redeem us so we can have freewill in heaven also where there is no sin................it dont get no better then that brother....dont turn your back on that....

so.........

because of freewill there is sin

because of freewill Jesus Christ had to come here and die to pay for our sins and enable us to be with God for forever......

i hope ur still reading.......

im asking you to give God a chance...you said you were catholic....go to God in prayer....he will come to you...I promice you bro..........Dont get led astray by all this crazy stuff......the devil is here bro.....like it or not....and his whole intention is to deceive the world through antichrist.........spirts who deny that Jesus was CHRIST and raised from the dead

this life is so much bigger then ufo's and all the crazy stuff.....please pray bro.....Godbless !!

Edited August 24, 2007 by Guest