Us Troops In Mortal Sin? Supporting Troops Also Sinful?

[Era Might]

[quote name='curtins' post='1370721' date='Aug 25 2007, 09:07 PM']But to answer the question- yes I believe the citizens should support the troops even if the Pope's opinion is different.[/quote]
My question is not related to what the Pope believes, but to what individual citizens believe. While a Catholic may believe that this is a just war, a Catholic may also believe that it is an unjust war.

Suppose you believed this (or any war) to be an unjust war. What do you believe is the appropriate response as a Catholic? That's the general question I'm trying to ask.

[curtins]

I could be completely wrong, but is it possible that there were at least some German and Japanese soldiers who believed they were honorably serving their country and doing their duty with valor and bravery, without knowing about and consenting to the attrocities?

[curtins]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1370732' date='Aug 25 2007, 10:24 PM']If a war does not meet the criteria of the just war principles set out by the Church, then it is not a just war. These principles are not opinions, but the teaching of the Church. Whether they are met or not is a matter that may have legitimate differences of opinion, but the principles themselves are Catholic moral doctrine.[/quote]

Yup, you're right- the criteria are legit, the difference comes in determining whether or not the criteria are met. I believe they have been met, others do not.


[quote name='Era Might' post='1370733' date='Aug 25 2007, 10:28 PM']My question is not related to what the Pope believes, but to what individual citizens believe. While a Catholic may believe that this is a just war, a Catholic may also believe that it is an unjust war.

Suppose you believed this (or any war) to be an unjust war. What do you believe is the appropriate response as a Catholic? That's the general question I'm trying to ask.[/quote]

Well I would believe a war is unjust if for instance we attacked a country that was utterly defenseless and had nothing whatso ever to do with anything that affected our foriegn policy (like lets say we invaded Jamaica) then I'd say that I do not support that war AND I'd put my money where my mouth is (unlike the left who 'support the troops' but trash the war effort) and say that I do not support the troops in that PARTICULAR mission/war. Same thing goes if we just started killing off civilians and committing atrocities (NOT isolated incidents- ie the orders are coming from high up to do this on a wide spread basis)

[Era Might]

I think you bring up a good point in your example because while an unjust war is an unjust war, there may be some wars that are more blatantly unjust than others.

But, in a war like this, where the United States has good will, but (assuming for the sake of argument) still does not meet the criterion of just war, how do you believe Catholics who determine that the war is unjust should respond? Should they not support the troops in the same way as the example you gave?

I think there is a real dilemma in this kind of situation. I'm not talking about rabid secularists who hate America and use the war as a pretext to advance their cause, but honest citizens who do not believe that it was just to invade Iraq, and maybe have a family member there. How do they obey their conscience and support the troops at the same time?

Getting back to the original post, I think the issue here is that there is not one Catholic answer to whether this war is just or not. A Catholic soldier may believe it is a just war, and he is free to believe that and serve in the war (as long as his decision is reasonably informed by the teaching of the Church). Thus, he believes he is fighting a just cause, and so of course he is not committing a mortal sin, because the Church has not forbidden anyone from believing the war is just.

However, his belief that the war is just does not necessarily mean that he is right. There is another legitimate view that the war is unjust. And so there is a tension here, because a Catholic may believe it is an unjust war, but also should recognize that a soldier has the freedom as far as the Church is concerned to come to a different conclusion.

So how can those two be balanced, respecting on the one hand the freedom of Catholic soldiers to fight if they believe the war is just, and on the other hand being a citizen of a nation that is engaged in an unjust war? People have to be able to make their views known as responsible citizens, but then they may be accused of being unpatriotic and not supporting the troops, which begs the question of what it means to support the troops.

[curtins]

Looking at only the Iraq war, if one believes that we were not justified going into Iraq, I would suggest they re-examine the facts and circumstances surrounding the invasion, the intel we had, the threat, etc etc. If they come to the same conclusion, I would ask them, would we be justified in leaving and letting thousands upon thousands die in a blood bath? Its like, ok whether you like it or not- we're in- whats done is done. What matters now is going foward. I would say then that that person could support the troops in their efforts to bring peace and stability back to the country and to hunt down terrorists who are killing innocent civilians.

[Era Might]

But that's a separate issue. Forget whether you believe the war is just or not. In general, how should Catholics respond who believe the war (any war) is unjust, assuming it is a war similar to the Iraq war, where America went with good will but did not meet the criterion of just war. These people cannot compromise their belief that the war is unjust, so how do they "support the troops" and obey their conscience?

[Paladin D]

[b]Off-topic note:[/b] This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, just a general message. We have a number of Phatmassers (and spouses/family of PMers) that are currently serving in the U.S. military. [b]Rick77[/b] enlisted in the Marine Corps and left for Boot Camp on August 13th, [b]IcePrincess'[/b] husband is in the US Army signal corps, and I'm currently going through the MEPS process to enlist in the US Army (active). I can't think of anyone else at the moment, but just keep this in mind when discussing the issue at hand.

[Socrates]

[quote name='XIX' post='1370716' date='Aug 25 2007, 08:03 PM']I believe it is appropriate to point out here that there is such a thing as regurgitated conservative tripe.[/quote]
I disagree, but that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Please note that I do not despise this liberal clown because he opposes the war in Iraq, but because of his statements against churches praying for parishioners serving in Iraq, etc.:
[quote]I wonder if your church is like mine. [b]Do they pray for our troops? Do they cheer when our soldiers return from the battlefront?[/b]
Do they ever pray tearfully for the country and lives torn apart by our invasion?

[b]Do they have the names and photos of your parishioners serving in the war on your walls and bulletins[/b], or are there names and photos of their innocent victims?[/quote]
The author of the letter then goes on to indicate that he regards such things as immoral because of the alleged immorality of the war.

I counter that it would be hateful and un-Christian to [b]not[/b] pray for our troops overseas.
A prayer list of parishioners serving in the military is in our parish bulletin, and, as I see it, only a madman or a Satanist could be opposed to such a thing.

Praying for our troops, and giving them similar support should have nothing to do with whether one agrees with the war or not. Even most anti-war liberals would agree with me on this - "I support our troops, but not the war."

Many enlisted in the military to serve their country before the war, and do not have the choice to simply desert. Others joined with the sincere objective to help people and improve the situation in Iraq. Many will testify that they have done good there and helped people. And those in the military are morally supposed to give their superiors the benefit of the doubt regarding the morality of a particular war - to hold every soldier and Marine in Iraq guilty of mortal sin simply for serving there is absurd.
If things had gone differently, I would have likely been fighting in Iraq. I would have certainly wanted all the prayers and support from back home I could get. I would not want geniuses like this bleeding-heart joker whining about my name being on a prayer list!

These young men are friends, brothers, sons, husbands, and fathers of people in our parish. What does this jackass want - for us to refuse to pray for them, or pray that some "insurgent" blow his head off, or that he end up tortured in some prison??

This is incredibly callous and insulting to those serving in Iraq undergoing hardships that civilians can barely imagine, as well as to their families.

Whether you agree with us being at war or not, should we not pray for the spiritual and material safety and well-being of our brothers fighting overseas?
To do otherwise can hardly be considered Christian.

This fool has let his fanatic politics blind him to basic Christian decency.

And like it or not, the situation now is that good can only come out of the success of our troops - both for us, and for the Iraq people. No good will come out of American failure or the triumph of our enemies. That would make the situation even worse.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Socrates

[Era Might]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1370820' date='Aug 25 2007, 11:08 PM'][b]Off-topic note:[/b] This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, just a general message. We have a number of Phatmassers (and spouses/family of PMers) that are currently serving in the U.S. military. [b]Rick77[/b] enlisted in the Marine Corps and left for Boot Camp on August 13th, [b]IcePrincess'[/b] husband is in the US Army signal corps, and I'm currently going through the MEPS process to enlist in the US Army (active). I can't think of anyone else at the moment, but just keep this in mind when discussing the issue at hand.[/quote]
Yes, there are probably a lot of Phatmassers who have family in the military (myself included). It's kind of sobering to hear about people younger than myself dying in Iraq. It really makes you step back and put life into perspective. If they're sacrificing their lives, what am I doing with my life?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1370958' date='Aug 26 2007, 12:32 PM']Yes, there are probably a lot of Phatmassers who have family in the military (myself included). It's kind of sobering to hear about people younger than myself dying in Iraq. It really makes you step back and put life into perspective. If they're sacrificing their lives, what am I doing with my life? [/quote]

It's sad to see the situation we're in, hopefully we're able to return our troops home safely in due time.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

It seems that there are two issues with this war that require separate answers.

1) Should we have gone into Iraq and was it a just war?
and
2) Should we stay in Iraq and what are the consequences for staying or leaving?

Saying that if we left then millions would die does not address how and why we entered the conflict. One can in good conscience say that we should never have gone into Iraq but we need to get out now. There are many anti-war people who have opposed this war from the start and believe getting out is the right thing to do. Unfortunately, there are many anti-war people who started out on the side of war and only changed for political reasons. They want to see us fail because it furthers their own cause. Every single troop death is a number on their scoreboard.

As for leaving, there are arguments either way. Who knows how long it will take to establish peace there. Tribal factions are a huge part of the culture and political landscape over there. Someone I know who has been over there likened the tribes to mafia or gangs. Expecting the tribes to work together to govern Iraq would be like getting the Crips, Bloods, and MS13 together to clean up Detroit. Will there be lots of killing if we left? Probably. But we're over there and there is still a lot of killing. The fact is that we're dealing with a part of the world that we don't really understand and acts in a very irrational manner. The Middle East is on or near the bottom of my list for places in the world I would want to live.

I hope that the Iraqi security forces get whipped into shape soon. They need to start taking care of themselves. I don't think people in that region value liberty terribly much and any democratic government will collapse quickly unless we stick around for a real long time.

As for supporting the troops, it's the best thing to do. The last thing we need this war to become is another Vietnam. I wasn't alive then, but I understand how bad the war was for veterans returning home. We should cheer when a soldier returns home because they fought in our Army and are at home alive.

[MichaelFilo]

While praying for people is always good, this second letter kinda showed how aware of the facts the responder was.
[quote]Mr. Williams does not mention that most of the civilians killed in the war have been killed by terrorists and insurgents of Iraq, not the U.S. military. These terrorists will continue to kill innocent civilians in Iraq with or without the coalition forces present [b]just as they did before the war[/b]. One wonders how many Americans they would kill if it weren’t for our military there trying to stop them?[/quote]

Really? Which insurgents in Iraq were going around killing people before the war? The same foreign insurgents in there now? That statement was pretty laughable.

[CatherineM]

My Grandfather served in WWI, My father in WWII, and I had one brother in the Army, Navy, and Air Force in Vietnam. My oldest foster son is a petty officer in the US Navy right now. I remember trying to get my father to tell me about what he did during the war. I knew he had be awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross, but I didn't know what for. He finally told me that he had sunk a Uboat that was trying to sink a troop carrier. He said that they had forced the sub to surface, and hoped they would surrender, and instead they manned their deck guns and began firing on the convoy and the covering air support. He said when they dropped the charges to destroy the sub, he was close enough to see the faces of the men standing on the deck. He told me that he doesn't regret anything he had to do in the war, he just regretted that it was necessary.

There's a lot of things in life that we end up regretting having to do. I firmly believe that the best way to support the troops is to bring them home.

[Anomaly]

I was a teen during Vietnam and had friends dads, and family fight there, die there, and some were POW. My father served in WW-II and was at the Normandy invasion and in Pacific serving the Navy. My wife's mom was in England, had her house bombed and her dad was a POW of the Germans for 8 years. I also have a co-worker I've known for 15 years who's a VietNam "boat person" who didn't get out until 3 years after the Communists took over. My family also sponsered a VN boat family that didn't get out until almost 5 years after the US withdrawl. My sister's in-laws have family in Iraq, with the latest one to escape Iraq getting out in May of 2000. My Dad's grandparents were immigrants and had siblings and family members die attempting to escape Poland and get to the US in the early 1900's.

Considering my background and the people I know, I can't concieve of it being moral to say Iraqi's are irrational, as a whole do not know or want freedom, and that US efforts in staying aren't worth it. People are people. The average person only wants to have a family, live life, feed and clothe their familys, and see thier children grow up and have families themselves. This is true in Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Poland, China, Malasia, Haiti, Cuba, Peru, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Zimbabwe, South Africa, France, Greenland, New Zealand, and the US.

When there's turmoil and war, it's the few who are in power that manipulate the average citizen who simply wants to live in peace, and they wage the wars. Abandoning the bulk of the Iraqi people to the many madmen who have guns and bullets is the epitome of callous immorallity. Believeing that the Arabic world are a bunch of backwards barbarians incapable of living in peace is unexcusably ignorant and dismissive of human dignity.

Although there is plenty of room to debate whether the US should have gone into Iraq, the fact is, we did, and the US has helped create the power vacumm that is allowing evil persons from within Iraq and outside of Iraq to wage war against each other, with the populace of Iraq as pawns and cannon fodder. I've sat and talked to people from VietNam that escaped brutal oppression where they watched parents, siblings, and friends raped to death, starved to death, imprisoned, tortured to death, ripped from their arms. I've talked to my grandmother and her kids and heard the stories of suffering and sacrifice and death that was endured to escape real horror to live here. I've sat with grown men who cried as they told their stories of escaping in crowded boats, being attacked by pirates, robbed, and left to drown with holes shot in their boats. I've talked with people who lived for years trapped in UN refugee camps while their parents, siblings and children died from disease, murder, starvation, and raids from fighters while the "peace keepers' stood around.

I know it's just my personal opinion, but I am saddened but not surprised that so many people want to abandon the Iraqi's, just as the people in Africa have been abandoned to death as political pawns because the people are just too backwards, uncivilized, and worthless to risk the lives of "civilized" people from the US or Europe. I think it's the devil's own lie to believe it's much more of a heinous crime to involve oneself in another's matters even if that other party is powerless in facing overwelming evil. I don't really think the Good Samaritan has to be pure in heart, and I think the US should try because we are stong enough to and may not be completely evil. Samaritans were not the moral religious pillars of society in Jesus' day. What about the 'good' people who walked by the wounded before hte Samaritan came along?

Instead of spending our efforts abandoning Iraqi's to evil people with guns, maybe we should spend our efforts keeping US efforts as moral as possible, keeping in mind, we are battling people who's tactics are exploding themselves on buses with women and children. I think the US is letting the thoughts of WHO we are battling to cause us to think about who we are fighting for. Here we may call them Joe "6-pack" and family. Is it really so different if it's Abul "Robewearer" and family? If we don't do it, who can or who will?

Edited August 29, 2007 by Anomaly

[CatherineM]

I agree that the reasons we went into Iraq are immaterial at this point in dealing with the mess that's there. I also believe that whether we are there 10 months or 10 weeks, when we leave there will be all out civil war. At that point the UN will be forced to help. They aren't now because the US went in without getting their approval, and figure we are getting what we deserve.

I think my biggest problem with what we did in Iraq is that we robbed the Iraqi people of their George Washington and Nathan Hale's. Had they as a people joined together and risen up to overthrow Saddam, they might have found the togetherness that they now lack. We stole from them the feeling of risking everything for freedom that our founding fathers experienced.

[knightec]

Support our troops.
Support our country.


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[Faith 1st]

These pictures show my brothers....Rene is in the first picture the first left one on the top...who served his 4 yrs on and was about to finish his 4 yrs off. In May 2003 he got married and was called to Iraq in Dec. of the same year. He left his wife who was 1 month pregnant with Robert...(he missed the entire pregnancy)
Rene was the first one in our entire family to enlist in the Marines when he was 19. At the age of 27 when he was in Iraq...he said that he was the oldest in his unit and that all the guys that they put him with were Alex's age (Picture #2).

The time that he spent there was horrible for our family. We did not know what was happening to him and we were scared! We learned the difference betwwen loosing a soldier and loosing a Marine...

I can tell you that my prayer life improved and I was talking to God on a daily basis and reconnecting with my faith. The church was the only place that I found confort. On those hard days when he was hurting for the pain that they were going through I reassured him that talking to God and praying would help him through....He NEVER went on the feild without his rosary and Prayed before and after his missions.

I don't know what he went through, he will not tell us or his wife....and I hope with all my heart that he has found peace with God.

Alex in the youngest in our family and followed in his brothers footstep. He enlisted and did not tell anyone until two weeks before leaving....he gave up his sign on bonus...because he wants to serve his country. He leaves in March for Iraq.

Supporting our troops should not be a question just or unjust....They are someones husbands, wives, son, daughters, brothers, sisters....leaving their families so that you can speak your mind and for the freedom of your children and grandchildren.

[Justin86]

Anyone who thinks that US troops are in mortal sin for what they are doing in Iraq needs to do some research on just war. Then again something tells me this guy really doesn't care about what the Church teaches but only wants to use the Church for his political gain. We can't pray for our troops? What? Last time I checked Catholics were called to pray for sinners not to snub them because we condem what they are doing.

[ironmonk]

The Vatican (I believe it was the Pope, but can't remember - read it a few years ago on Zenit) stated that soldiers do not have to worry and they are not sinning.

nuff said


God Bless,
ironmonk

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Both those letters are problematic, the second just as much as the first.

The chaplain bases his defence of the troops' presence in Iraq on two points:

1.) Saddam Hussein was a murderous butcher who killed up to 500,00 of his own people.
2.) The majority of killings in Iraq these days are committed by terrorists and insurgents, and these killings would still be going on even if the coalition forces weren't present.

The second point is frankly untrue. Iraq was a dictatorship prior to the war, but it wasn't unstable. People from other countries weren't streaming in illegally over the borders to fight other people. Sectarianism existed, but it was nowhere near so bloody or so violent. The invasion destabilised the country. To say otherwise is not honest.

As for the first point...Saddam Hussein was not the only ruthless tyrant in the world. Where was the rush to invade Zimbabe when Robert Mugabe began his reign of terror? Why did no one invade Uganda during the time of Idi Amin? What about the genocide in Rwanda at the hands of the Hutu government just over ten years ago? You need more than an evil government to justify the presence of troops.

My brother has served in Iraq twice. I prayed for him when he was out there, and I continue to pray for all the troops who are serving there now. But my prayer is worth nothing if it's dishonest. I cannot glorify the situation by making grandiose statements such as, "We should support our boys - they're out there protecting Great Britain!" The truth is that Britain was never under any particular threat from Hussein's regime, as we now know, and as a result of the war in Iraq there is a real shortage of British troops in Afghanistan - a place where they went out of actual necessity.

I pray for these men and women, but I'm under no rosy illusions about the situation. The second letter is just as abhorrent as the first, because it effectively denies the suffering of Iraqi civilians by making it sound as though they would be suffering even more if the invasion hadn't happened. Not true. Before the war you got squashed if you were a Kurd or a Shi'a marsh-Arab. Thanks to sectarian infighting everyone now has an equal chance of being squashed, and that's not the kind of equality that was originally planned. The invasion was handled in a botched-up and messy way. It's unfair to the troops and unfair to the Iraqi citizens to pretend otherwise.

Good prayer takes hold of everything, warts and all, and holds it before the Lord. Churches that have photos of soldiers looking tough and macho in the streets of Basra on their noticeboards but pray only half-heartedly (or not at all) for the faceless Ay-rabs in Iraq are not entering fully into prayer. It's as simple as that.

For these reasons, both of those letters made me extremely uncomfortable.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous