Harassment Of Homosexuals In The Military

[Anomaly]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1386445' date='Sep 16 2007, 03:17 AM']I dont know why people think this about me. I dont talk about it...i dont act like a flambouyant gay guy. I dont know how to answer your second question.[/quote]I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around the situation and why you think that it's special because you have SSA.

As was pointed out in other threads. The act of NOT behaving like an animal that is guided by hormones and desire to please their genitals, is perceived as 'odd', especially in an all-male, 18-21yo group. Your "harassment" seems to be no more then the grief any decent minded guy gets when he doesn't chime with the crowed when they're babbling on about 'doing' everygood looking woman they see. From your statement above, there is NOTHING you're doing that set's you apart as being gay or having SSA. The only thing is what you have done regarding the jibes, is complain that it's because of your SSA, when there is no way to know that without you telling them.

You've violated the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy first because you told them. You weren't targeted or teased because you were 'gay', you were targeted and teased because you acted like you had morals and didn't treat women like empty sex-objects. Join the club.

You had stated it wasn't right that only 1 party had to obey the DA,DT policy. I disagree with you. Even though I think you broke it first, that doesn't mean what they've done is now okay, although, you share some of the blame and responsibility, so that opens you up for punishment as well as them.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1386502' date='Sep 16 2007, 08:32 AM']I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around the situation and why you think that it's special because you have SSA.

As was pointed out in other threads. The act of NOT behaving like an animal that is guided by hormones and desire to please their genitals, is perceived as 'odd', especially in an all-male, 18-21yo group. Your "harassment" seems to be no more then the grief any decent minded guy gets when he doesn't chime with the crowed when they're babbling on about 'doing' everygood looking woman they see. From your statement above, there is NOTHING you're doing that set's you apart as being gay or having SSA. The only thing is what you have done regarding the jibes, is complain that it's because of your SSA, when there is no way to know that without you telling them.

You've violated the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy first because you told them. You weren't targeted or teased because you were 'gay', you were targeted and teased because you acted like you had morals and didn't treat women like empty sex-objects. Join the club.

You had stated it wasn't right that only 1 party had to obey the DA,DT policy. I disagree with you. Even though I think you broke it first, that doesn't mean what they've done is now okay, although, you share some of the blame and responsibility, so that opens you up for punishment as well as them.[/quote]


The truth is I have broken the "don't ask don't tell" policy 2 times since I have been in the Army. The first time was in basic training....drill sergeants found a letter that I was writing to my counselor (a christian counselor who helps people seek freedom from homosexuality). They confronted me about it and told me that they found the letter and that they were aware of my situation. If I remember correctly...they seemed to give me hints to take a "failure to adapt" and get out...but dont quote me on that.

The second time was in AIT. I talked to a openly gay soldier about it. I told him that i experience SSA but that I believed that it can be overcome.

Those were the 2 times that I broke the policy. Yeah I know, it was a mistake. Spare me the criticism. This stuff is not supposed to leave a training environment but its certainly possible that it did.

I know they thought those things about me in the context in which I speak of. I just can't tell you why people think this about me...I can only offer possibilities.

Prior to me telling you this....I dont know why you would have thought that i broke it first. I have not broken it one time since I have been at my first duty station.

I dont think that I deserve any special treatment nor do I think I am special because I have SSA. What did I say that lead you to believe this?

[Anomaly]

So it seems that the fag comments are just immature males trying to be hurtful because you are not a 'hormone controlled' animalistic male. Then you're harrassment has nothing to do with SSA or being gay, they're just rude, innappropirate, hateful comments because you're 'diffferent' because you have morals, not because of SSA.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1386532' date='Sep 16 2007, 09:54 AM']So it seems that the fag comments are just immature males trying to be hurtful because you are not a 'hormone controlled' animalistic male. Then you're harrassment has nothing to do with SSA or being gay, they're just rude, innappropirate, hateful comments because you're 'diffferent' because you have morals, not because of SSA.[/quote]

IL,

If Anomaly's analysis is correct, then maybe you should begin to rethink this as religious harassment instead. You may want to start lifting weights and explain that certain thing syou don't do for religious reasons, and finish with this phrase "Is there a problem with that?" - and do it in an authoratative tone of voice.

[Justin86]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1386521' date='Sep 16 2007, 11:29 PM']This stuff is not supposed to leave a training environment but its certainly possible that it did.[/quote]
It's [i]not[/i]?

Sorry, but if you claim to be attracted to your same sex you shouldn't be in the military. I don't want to shower next to a gay dude. I don't care if you find that mean, offensive or against equal opportunity. That's how it is.

In my opinion it is completely scandalous that the Army let you get away with this twice--I mean [i]twice[/i]??? I'm stunned. Congress should be investigating the Army for [i]that[/i] not for 18-21 year olds making fun of gays.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1386947' date='Sep 17 2007, 05:44 AM']It's [i]not[/i]?

Sorry, but if you claim to be attracted to your same sex you shouldn't be in the military. I don't want to shower next to a gay dude. I don't care if you find that mean, offensive or against equal opportunity. That's how it is.

In my opinion it is completely scandalous that the Army let you get away with this twice--I mean [i]twice[/i]??? I'm stunned. Congress should be investigating the Army for [i]that[/i] not for 18-21 year olds making fun of gays.[/quote]


Well I admit they should have taken action when they had the opportunity. And yes im sure that it would be hard to shower next to a gay dude.

I think the reason why they didnt take action was because of the nature in which I revealed this information. The interpretation of the "don't ask don't tell" policy is controversial. Under the Homosexual conduct portion of the policy....it says that the soldier cannot show a propensity to engage in homosexual acts. The controversy lies within the interpretation of "propensity". Does that mean that because the soldier has SSA that if that person is to have sex it would be with someone of the same sex? Or does it mean that the person can express SSA but at the same time reveal that he/she does not intend on acting upon it?It may be intrepreted that way since the very next sentence says..."the soldier can present evidence that he/she does not engage in homosexual acts and does not have a propensity or intent to do so".A commander can subject the person to punishment under the UCMJ in either case.

In my case I revealed that I had SSA, but I also revealed that I did not intend on acting upon those feelings.

I am glad that you did not try to rationalize why you think gays shouldn't be in the military. You did not make a moral issue out of it....rather you simply stated that it just makes you feel uncomfortable. I think it is as simple as that, and thats why I think most people don't want gays in the military. I think they use morallity to try to justify keeping them out.

My opinion is that morallity is not a reason to keep gays out of the military since we are all sinners. It is hypocritical to keep someone out because of a sin they commit since we are all sinners. Some people dont even engage in the sin.....why keep them out? Because it makes people feel uncomfortable showering or living with them? This is the only reason that I can find.

[Red Knight]

Regardless of what type of issue occurs in the military, there are steps that must be followed:

1. Chain of command, regardless of wheteher or not someone in your chain is involved. You MUST use the chain of command. That is an essential part of military life and when you break this rule, you lose all credibility with your fellow soldiers.

2. Inspector General, if you receive no action through the chain of command, take it to the IG. Their role is to assist the soldier when problems arise within the chain of command.

The last, and I mean LAST thing you want to do is contact a Representative or Senator. It may not be right, but that will blackball you. Especially if you didn't do the first two steps above.

I wasn't able to glean exactly what you did prior to the congressional, but I get the feeling you didn't do steps above.

So you have SSA, so what? The military life is difficult at the best of times. Being a 'sensitive male' only makes it harder. If they didn't teach you that at basic or AIT, then we failed to make it clear enough. In my opinion basic is too easy these days, and it was pretty easy when I went through it, but tougher than it is now.

It's pretty clear to me that your DI's were right about failure to adapt.

Let me tell you a story from my own experience. I don't like people to use the Lord's name in vain. I made it clear to those I work with that they can feel free to say pretty much anything they want, just not to take the Lord's name in vain. After reminding people a number of times, even the most hard core blasphemers stopped in my presence. Why? Respect.

stating clearly that you find something offensive and asking people to refrain from it, repeatedly, can get results.

Many people want to serve their country in the military but can't for various reasons. Find an other way to serve and suppport.

I'm gathering from your posts that the military is not the right fit for you. Seek a discharge and get out. Don't turn this into a political statement about SSA or homosexuality.

Red

[fides quarens intellectum]

sorry - i hadn't been in the debate table in a bit, so i just saw this one.

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381420' date='Sep 8 2007, 08:36 PM']If someone did have same sex attraction, they shouldn't be in the military.[/quote]

what?!


[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381731' date='Sep 9 2007, 11:46 AM']People who live the homosexual lifestyle have no business in the military.
That's like a straight guy staying in a girls dorm in college.[/quote]

just don't think we can equate SSA with living a homosexual lifestyle.


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 01:48 PM']As for weight-lifting being a way to prove that you are not gay, I don't understand it. Are there no gay men who lift weights? Are there no straight men who have no interest in weights at all?[/quote]




[quote name='ironmonk' post='1383202' date='Sep 10 2007, 09:58 PM']As for no homosexuals in the military.... I agree 100% with General Pace... a Catholic.

-------------------------------------
[url="http://www.catholicmil.org/html/article.php?id=557"]http://www.catholicmil.org/html/article.php?id=557[/url]

[b]No Surrender: Catholic Marine’s Beliefs Under Fire[/b]
Written by Paul A. Barra
02Apr07

— America’s top military officer generated a firestorm of criticism last week when he called homosexual acts immoral and said that the military should not condone them.[/quote]

i think it was clear that he was speaking out against homosexual acts (and adulterous heterosexual acts, and any other immorality, too). again, we can't equate SSA with actively living out a homosexual lifestyle.


[quote name='ironmonk' post='1384618' date='Sep 12 2007, 09:07 PM']People who live the homosexual lifestyle are too immoral for the military because they practice an abomination. Many people in the military fornicate, but fornication is not an abomination.[/quote]

oh really?


[quote name='Norseman82' post='1386461' date='Sep 16 2007, 02:22 AM']HUH???

Extra-marital sex - no matter if it's with your own half of humanity or the opposite - is a mortal sin. Does someone say to themselves, "oh, well, I'm in hell, but at least it wasn't for an abomination"? How can something be less of a mortal sin? It all has the same penalty.

As someone once said, hell is hot no matter who you sleep with to get there.[/quote]

thank you!


-------

i also noticed something - so, it's okay to toss words around like "fag" and "qwerty" on here, but people have to type things like "sh**" and my personal favorite, "carp" so that they're not edited by a moderator?

in the end, i'm sorry you're going through this, but as i am not a military person and am very ignorant on how it works/what it requires from soldiers/airmen/etc, i have no guidance/suggestions to offer. instead, only prayers.

Peace in Christ.

[Paladin D]

The *homosexual lifestyle* is a mortal sin, like any other mortal sin. Implying that it is somehow the most evil out of all the sins is inaccurate.

[b]EDIT:[/b] Want to make it clear that "homosexual lifestyle" and same-sex attraction (SSA) are two different things. SSA isn't necessarily a sin unless it's acted upon, in which it would fall under a "homosexual lifestyle".

Edited September 29, 2007 by Paladin D

[Maggyie]

[quote]i also noticed something - so, it's okay to toss words around like "fag" and "qwerty" on here, but people have to type things like "sh**" and my personal favorite, "carp" so that they're not edited by a moderator? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idontknow.gif)[/quote]

If you haven't noticed, the word "qwerty" gets turned into "qwerty" automatically by the phorum software. That's also how "carp" gets turned into carp. People aren't actually typing carp, they're typing the other semi-dirty word, and the software changes it. Just FYI.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1386960' date='Sep 17 2007, 09:36 AM']Well I admit they should have taken action when they had the opportunity. And yes im sure that it would be hard to shower next to a gay dude.

I think the reason why they didnt take action was because of the nature in which I revealed this information. The interpretation of the "don't ask don't tell" policy is controversial. Under the Homosexual conduct portion of the policy....it says that the soldier cannot show a propensity to engage in homosexual acts. The controversy lies within the interpretation of "propensity". Does that mean that because the soldier has SSA that if that person is to have sex it would be with someone of the same sex? Or does it mean that the person can express SSA but at the same time reveal that he/she does not intend on acting upon it?It may be intrepreted that way since the very next sentence says..."the soldier can present evidence that he/she does not engage in homosexual acts and does not have a propensity or intent to do so".A commander can subject the person to punishment under the UCMJ in either case.

In my case I revealed that I had SSA, but I also revealed that I did not intend on acting upon those feelings.

I am glad that you did not try to rationalize why you think gays shouldn't be in the military. You did not make a moral issue out of it....rather you simply stated that it just makes you feel uncomfortable. I think it is as simple as that, and thats why I think most people don't want gays in the military. I think they use morallity to try to justify keeping them out.

My opinion is that morallity is not a reason to keep gays out of the military since we are all sinners. It is hypocritical to keep someone out because of a sin they commit since we are all sinners. Some people dont even engage in the sin.....why keep them out? Because it makes people feel uncomfortable showering or living with them? This is the only reason that I can find.[/quote]Frankly, your self-righteous and selfish attitude is tiring. Morality IS a reason to keep gays out of the military. Military Conduct Rules already have Morals regulations. You continually rationalize and justify your behavior with technicalities and selfishness that defy reasonableness.
You are doing little not nothing to 'overcome' your SSA, because you keep bringing it up and making a big issue of it when it doesn't have to be. Just because Military enforcement of it's rules are imperfect, is not justification to claim it can't enforce any rules (because we're all sinners).
With your attitude, you should be kicked out of the military because you do little to nothing to comply and be part of the unit. Military is not normal or regualar society. People have guns and are expected to use them in tense and hostile situation where people who hate you are expected to use them against you. It's not a liberal or conservative thing. It's not harrassment. It's not picking on poor little you. It's your immature self asorbtion that refuses to accept the responsibilities and consequences of your own choices and actions. It's your childish and sophmoric attitude that believes others should meet a higher standard than you FIRST, THEN you'll comply with their regualations. Good luck with that.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1395448' date='Sep 30 2007, 09:21 AM']You are doing little not nothing to 'overcome' your SSA, because you keep bringing it up and making a big issue of it when it doesn't have to be. Just because Military enforcement of it's rules are imperfect, is not justification to claim it can't enforce any rules (because we're all sinners).[/quote]

IL,

I'd like to expand on anomaly's point here.

Now, you know I'm not one of those who makes light of harassment. At the same time, you talk about how you'd like to be married and have children some day. In all charity, maybe what you are going through is a wake-up call to get serious about that goal and get that part of your life in order. It will reap multiple benefits.

Who knows - maybe if your roommate sees you looking at the women on Ave Maria Singles they [i]may[/i] back off a bit to the point that life will be more bearable. Hey, even post the best picture of yourself in uniform (if it does not violate regulations) - some women are attracted to that! Maybe even some of the single ladies here on phatmass might swoon over you!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1395230' date='Sep 29 2007, 04:26 PM']The *homosexual lifestyle* is a mortal sin, like any other mortal sin. Implying that it is somehow the most evil out of all the sins is inaccurate.[/quote]
Don't know who "implied" that, but to clarify, homosexuality is regarded by the church as objectively the most serious of sexual sins next to bestiality.
(Rape can be worse though because in addition to being a sin against chastity, it is also a grave sin against justice.)

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1395448' date='Sep 30 2007, 09:21 AM']Frankly, your self-righteous and selfish attitude is tiring. Morality IS a reason to keep gays out of the military. Military Conduct Rules already have Morals regulations. You continually rationalize and justify your behavior with technicalities and selfishness that defy reasonableness.
You are doing little not nothing to 'overcome' your SSA, because you keep bringing it up and making a big issue of it when it doesn't have to be. Just because Military enforcement of it's rules are imperfect, is not justification to claim it can't enforce any rules (because we're all sinners).
With your attitude, you should be kicked out of the military because you do little to nothing to comply and be part of the unit. Military is not normal or regualar society. People have guns and are expected to use them in tense and hostile situation where people who hate you are expected to use them against you. It's not a liberal or conservative thing. It's not harrassment. It's not picking on poor little you. It's your immature self asorbtion that refuses to accept the responsibilities and consequences of your own choices and actions. It's your childish and sophmoric attitude that believes others should meet a higher standard than you FIRST, THEN you'll comply with their regualations. Good luck with that.[/quote]


Wow...i would like a second opinion on this one....you people really think im being selfish and rationalizing here?

I certainly dont see it that way.

[infinitelord1]

hey anomoly, what about people who dont live the homosexual lifestyle but experience SSA? In this case they are living their lives morally in the face of temptation. Sounds like you put them in the same box as active homosexuals.

While at my first duty station I never broke the Dont ask Dont tell policy....therefore I never deserved to be treated the way I was. I abided by the rules....they didnt...its as simple as that. Wanna make a moral issue out of straight people obeying the Dont ask Dont tell policy? Thats what im doing. Got any crappy comments now? I dont wanna hear them.

Edited October 1, 2007 by infinitelord1

[Anomaly]

You don't want to hear the truth.
You haven't answered repeated questions of what SSA activity you feel you are being prevented from doing.
It's been pointed out (again, repeatedly) that your mistreatment is the same as what hetero's may get if they don't go along with the typical 'horn-dog' mentality of most young men in today's society.
Really, your mistreatment had NOTHING to do with SSA until you made it known and made it an issue.
And your accusation: "hey anomoly, what about people who dont live the homosexual lifestyle but experience SSA? In this case they are living their lives morally in the face of temptation. Sounds like you put them in the same box as active homosexuals." is wrong, false, and just lashing out at me. I never said that, or even came close to intimating that.

We all get treated badly at times, and rarely 'deserve it'. Okay, you didn't 'deserve' how you were treated. Join the club. Your claims that it has to do with your 'SSA' is off-base and wrong, unless you aren't telling us the whole story.

So you got some 'fag' comments because you weren't going along with the 'horn-dog' attitude of the guys. Hello, lot's of us have said they've gotten the same comments and we don't have SSA. What makes you special, or makes those comments any more hurtful when directed towards you? People say mean things, so you want 'Teacher' to make the mean boys to stop picking on you? This isn't grammar school, you have to deal with it as an adult.

It's you that made it about SSA because it's YOU who broke the code and told others you have SSA. The 'fag' comments that were directed towards you had nothing to do with your SSA because it's the same comments said towards many guys who have morals that govern how they act and talk about women.

[Aloysius]

from personal experience: when one is struggling with this issue, they tend to become particularly sensitive to the common day to day gay joke (whether or not it is used directed at them). this is probably why Infinitelord reacted this way. sadly, it only serves to "out" him for real when he responds too sensitively to the daily fodder of 'fag' statements.

I remember one time I got really upset at a lot of my friends for continued jokes about homosexuals in general (wasn't even directed at me)... I was dealing with it so seriously, and to them it was a big joke ya know? I just had it in my mind that if they only knew the hell it puts people through, how could they laugh? ehh... looking back I know I was just in a really hyper sensitive emo-ish mood and am really glad I kept my indignation to myself.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1395293' date='Sep 29 2007, 07:35 PM']If you haven't noticed, the word "qwerty" gets turned into "qwerty" automatically by the phorum software. That's also how "carp" gets turned into carp. People aren't actually typing carp, they're typing the other semi-dirty word, and the software changes it. Just FYI.[/quote]

thanks for the explanation - i thought people were self-editing. i wish "fag" were changed by the software as well...

[Aloysius]

I was here at the fall of "queeer" to the fiddler. it was really quite a sad day in phorum history if I do say so myself, for it is a perfectly fine word in its proper context. it means odd, strange, pecuiliar.

and of course, what about those who like to smoke fags?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1395926' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:26 AM']You don't want to hear the truth.
You haven't answered repeated questions of what SSA activity you feel you are being prevented from doing.
It's been pointed out (again, repeatedly) that your mistreatment is the same as what hetero's may get if they don't go along with the typical 'horn-dog' mentality of most young men in today's society.
Really, your mistreatment had NOTHING to do with SSA until you made it known and made it an issue.
And your accusation: "hey anomoly, what about people who dont live the homosexual lifestyle but experience SSA? In this case they are living their lives morally in the face of temptation. Sounds like you put them in the same box as active homosexuals." is wrong, false, and just lashing out at me. I never said that, or even came close to intimating that.

We all get treated badly at times, and rarely 'deserve it'. Okay, you didn't 'deserve' how you were treated. Join the club. Your claims that it has to do with your 'SSA' is off-base and wrong, unless you aren't telling us the whole story.

So you got some 'fag' comments because you weren't going along with the 'horn-dog' attitude of the guys. Hello, lot's of us have said they've gotten the same comments and we don't have SSA. What makes you special, or makes those comments any more hurtful when directed towards you? People say mean things, so you want 'Teacher' to make the mean boys to stop picking on you? This isn't grammar school, you have to deal with it as an adult.

It's you that made it about SSA because it's YOU who broke the code and told others you have SSA. The 'fag' comments that were directed towards you had nothing to do with your SSA because it's the same comments said towards many guys who have morals that govern how they act and talk about women.[/quote]

Look, I know that those comments were directed at me in the context that I described. It had everything to do with my SSA. Those people suspected me of my SSA, and thats why they said the things they did. I didnt make it into anything. You can blame me for giving it away or whatever....you cant blame me for the choices that other people made that resulted in me being mistreated.

I dont understand why you percieve me as thinking that I am special. I would encourage others to do the same thing I did. The reason why I chose this course of action was because of the degree at which it was happening. If it were just every so often or just a few people then i would be able to see why writing a Senator is childish or flat out overkill. My situation was out of control and way too many people (most importantly superiors) were involved. Because of how big it was....it said a lot about the army as a whole....and now that i do more research into the subject....I am finding that many of the things I was going through is experienced by many others. All the "conspiracy" that some of you have accused me of is actually a reality for many others. I think my case is a good case because it shows that there is a possiblity that high ranking individuals are giving orders to push out people with SSA. Thats what gave fuel to my case, and thats why I posted this thread in the manner that I did. Take out those officers and this would have been a different topic. It would have been more like "how should I handle my situation?" or "what should I do in this case". I can only tell you what happened, and show you how strongly I think the way I do.

You know I could have handled it a lot differently than I did....I chose not to file a complaint with the Army. I knew they would have been forced to inflict severe punishment on those people since they were in the spotlight of a supporting senator. I also knew that if I filed the complaint I would have been showing them that I was unwilling to work with them on the situation. I know that sounds crazy, I really dont believe that they would have worked with me if I used the army complaint channel. It would have been worse for me then because I would have put the SSA idea into peoples heads without outside sources knowing what was going on. But at the same time I am telling you that a lot of people allready suspected it. It would have gone nowhere. It was either put up with it, get out, or make a move that would force them into cooperation making it more livable for myself. Im just trying to survive. Try not to look at this any other way. I want to stay....I couldnt go on like that anymore. The important thing is right now things are better. Im just watching their nexts moves and evaluating to see if I need to take further action. I think they realize that if they start trying to corner me again then I will make bigger political moves. But at the same time I continue to watch every move they make.

Service Members Legal Defense Network encourages writing congress on the matter for many reasons. I did not know about this organization prior to filing my congressional....but when I read there website im glad i did because i found a lot of common things in there.