The Types Of Habits For Various Communities

[Saint Therese]

I think there are some communites that have the abbreviated veil and habit, but are quite orthodox-such as the religous order of Sister Briege Mckenna. However there is a definite corollation between a "liberal" theology and the doing away with the habit. I think it sometimes reflects their views about the nature of women and their relationship to the authority of the Church.

[Veritas]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1377095' date='Sep 3 2007, 04:16 PM']No shortnun that question wasn't directed toward you....it was directed to the individuals who voted no to the third question. Anyway, I guess each of us are free to use our own words to describe communities. Whether it be positive, negative, traditional, conservative, and liberal. We all are free to use anywords we like[/quote]

+

This is a very interesting statement. Because, of course we are all free to use or misuse words as we like, but the question is, "Should we?" Are we helping or hindering understanding? Are we representing truth if we are not careful with our definitions?

The "logic" we use is interesting, isn't it?

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1377095' date='Sep 3 2007, 04:16 PM']No shortnun that question wasn't directed toward you....it was directed to the individuals who voted no to the third question. Anyway, I guess each of us are free to use our own words to describe communities. Whether it be positive, negative, traditional, conservative, and liberal. We all are free to use anywords we like[/quote]

I agree.

[ruso]

To see if we understand what happen after of conciliate the Vatican II, girls.
Many norms have that to change, only by cruel, for example, if you was religious and one of your parents were going to die, can to choose between going to the funeral or going to visit it, never to the two things.
But many congregations took everything very far, this good to help the poor men, for example, but you are religious that apostolate makes no sense outside the Church. Nowadays some congregations follow in this error, It is not a question of habits only. It is a question from fidelity to the Church and its lessons.

Who are not faithful, they disappear.

Cielo y tierra pasaran, mas tus palabras no pasaran.

Sky and earth happened, but your words did not happen.

[ruso]

And several congregations that if they are faithful, also would disappear.
I feel to be hard, but the congregations disappear and the Church continuous, until the time end.
It is our education and our faith.

[HollyDolly]

you are right.It really doesn't matter what habits the sisters wear,or whether they are conservitive or liberal,etc.

new communities are springing up in the Church all the time.Some will make it others not.
And some established communities will,die out. All for various reasons but mainly i guess because they are not attracting new members.
The Sisters of St.Elizabeth in Brookfield,Wisconsin joined with some Franciscan Sisters in Milwaukee.
The Vicentian Sisters of Charity in Bedford,Ohio planned to join with the Vicentian Sisters of Charity of Pittsburgh,Pa.
I can't find any mention of the Daughters of St.Rita of the Immaculate Heart of Mary,the Society of Christ Our king,
Cathecist Missionary Sisters of St.John,Congregation of Consolers of the Sacred Heart of Jesus,and several other communities who used to be around,but may no longer exist.
The Arrosian Canons,Order of Tiron,Order of Grandchamp,Order of Savignay,and several other communities of the past no longer exist.While there has been a revival of the brigettine Monks,no one has tried to revive these orders.
I think the Vallambrosians and the Monte Virgne Order are still around in Italy,but their numbers are smaller that in the past.

[sr_betsy]

[quote]The Vincentian Sisters of Charity in Bedford,Ohio planned to join with the Vicentian Sisters of Charity of Pittsburgh,Pa.[/quote]

The Vincentian Sisters of Charity in Bedford, Ohio merged with the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati. They branched from the Vincentian Sisters of Charity from Pittsburgh, PA.

BTW....Happy Feast of St. Vincent de Paul

sr betsy

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='HollyDolly' post='1394053' date='Sep 27 2007, 08:14 AM'] you are right.It really doesn't matter what habits the sisters wear,or whether they are conservitive or liberal,etc.[/quote]

I have to disagree with this. It definitely does matter if a community is "conservative or liberal, etc." Yes, I understand that these are general terms and can mean a variety of different things to various degrees. But generally speaking, when we use the word "liberal" to describe a community, we mean, one that is not fully in union with the mind of the Church, eg some communities that promote a New Age spirituality and are not centered on the Eucharist, etc.

Generally speaking, when we use the term "conservative," we are speaking of one that is orthodox, completely in union with the mind of the Church. And often in addition, one that keeps certain traditional ascepts of religious life, like a more contemplative focus (like the SMME), etc. As Fr. Corapi has said, one of the greatest heresies in the Church today is "activism." Our works have to be fueled by prayer. Many of what I would call "liberal" communities, have lost this. A sister (that btw, wears lay clothing) at my parish never comes to Eucharistic Adoration when we have it, and does not support it.

A few years back when I was first discerning I went on a discernment retreat where several different congregations were represented. Only one of them I would consider orthodox, the Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity. From several of the other sisters, I noticed things that were way off, eg one Superior said it doesn't really matter if you believe in the Immaculate Conception or not (really! and she said she did not believe it herself) other things - a general spirit of disobediece, feminism, in favor of women ordinations, etc. These communities I would describe with the term "liberal" and I don't think that is incorrect. They have a liberal interpretation of what it is to be Catholic, which they are not if they do not accept things like the Immaculate Conception! And all these communities I noticed at this retreat did not wear any habit - just the Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity.

So, yes, it does matter if a community is "conservative or liberal, etc."

[shortnun]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1395677' date='Sep 30 2007, 04:29 PM']A sister (that btw, wears lay clothing) at my parish never comes to Eucharistic Adoration when we have it, and does not support it.[/quote]
I do not think that your portrayal of this sister is fair, just, or necessary in your response to this conversation. Eucharistic Adoration is a [i]personal devotion[/i]. Would you say the same thing about another parishioner if she didn't attend weekly rosary or if he didn't come to Stations of the Cross on Lenten Fridays? Even if this sister has spoken out against Eucharistic Adoration, I doubt that anyone (including yourself) knows the entire story. Thus, I think it's best if she (including her clothes, personal devotions, etc) is kept absent from this conversation.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1395686' date='Sep 30 2007, 02:39 PM']I do not think that your portrayal of this sister is fair, just, or necessary in your response to this conversation. Eucharistic Adoration is a [i]personal devotion[/i]. Would you say the same thing about another parishioner if she didn't attend weekly rosary or if he didn't come to Stations of the Cross on Lenten Fridays? Even if this sister has spoken out against Eucharistic Adoration, I doubt that anyone (including yourself) knows the entire story. Thus, I think it's best if she (including her clothes, personal devotions, etc) is kept absent from this conversation.[/quote]

No, I would not speak out against anyone in my parish that does not attend a weekly Rosary or Stations of the Cross service, etc. I am not at all like that, and I totally understand I have no idea about the entire story of anyone's life - only God knows. Seriously, I am not at all like that.

But I was trying to give a general example of what some of the more liberal communities are like. There are a few sisters at my parish that are this way. I mention "a sister" to keep this a general reference, and am not mentioning any congregations or other details.

I understand that Eucharistic Adoration is a personal devotion, but it is something our Cardinal in particular is highly encouraging in the parishes in our diocese. To not support it, and even speak against it, is not in union with the mind of the Church.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

[quote][b]Do you think that the type of habit a community wears determines if they are Traditional, Conservative or liberal?[/b][/quote]
Yes, it more than often does - it is one external sign that can determine this. And again, I understand that these are general terms, and can mean a variety of things. But I believe what Marieteresa is generally saying here, without having to describe everything, is:

[b]Traditional[/b] - first of all, ones that are orthodox, ie completely in union with the mind of the Church - and in additional - ones that value and keep certain traditional ascepts of religious life like the full habit, use of Latin (for Roman Catholics) in the Liturgy - whether the Forma Ordinaria or Extraordinaria and Divine Office - for cloistered communities - ones that keep certain traditional customs that protect their life of enclosure, like grills in the parlor, etc.

[b]Conservative[/b] - first again, ones that are completely orthodox & similar to the description above, ones that "conserve" certain traditional ascepts of religious life, etc

[b]Liberal[/b] - ones that are not orthodox/have a liberal interpretation of Catholicism

As Fr. Corapi says, grey is the devil's favorite color. Religious communities that I would consider liberal, would be ones that are grey in certain areas of what the Church teaches.

[quote][b]If a community doesn't wear a habit do you consider them liberal?[/b][/quote]
Yes, in the vast majority of cases (and I do not mean individual sisters, but their communities - as I know several sisters that do not wear habits, that I would consider traditional - one that particularly loves the TLM and taught me a lot about it - who is sad about the current state of her religious community, and feels pressured to not wear the habit)

The present [b]Code of Canon Law[/b] in Chapter IV, [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P28.HTM"][i]The Obligations and Rights of Institutes and Their Members[/i][/url], requires religious to wear the habit of their particular religious institute/order (Canon 669) - among other things including Eucharistic Adoration, devotion to Our Lady and the Rosary, & the primacy of prayer for all religious (Canon 663)

[quote]Members are to make every effort to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice daily, to receive the most sacred Body of Christ, and to adore the Lord himself present in the sacrament.[/quote]
[quote]"I say: rejoice to be witnesses to Christ in the modern world. Do not hesitate to be recognizable, identifiable in the streets as men and women who have consecrated their lives to God and who have given up everything worldly to follow Christ. Believe that contemporary men and women set value on the visible signs of the consecration of your lives. People need signs and reminders of God in the modern secular city, which has few reminders of God left. So do not help the trend towards 'taking God off the streets' by adapting secular modes of dress and behavior yourselves!" ~Pope John Paul II, 1979[/quote]

There is only one community I know of personally that does not wear a distinctive habit, that I would not consider liberal at all, but rather, they are exceptionally orthodox - [url="http://www.apostlesofil.org/AilIndex.htm"]The Apostles of the Interior Life[/url] - because it is a particular charism of theirs to remain in appearance as lay people (similar to the community CA mentioned above). But this is definitely an exception from the rule, and one [i]which they have approval for[/i].

[quote][b]Is there a connection between communities wearing the full habit and those communities desiring TLM?[/b][/quote]
Yes, there definitely is. All the communities I've heard of that either have the TLM now, or desire it, wear a full habit.

Not to say that those with modified habits are not as good as those with full habits - seriously, not at all. But just in answer to the question - yes, there definitely is a connection, without a doubt, between communities wearing a full habit, and those desiring the TLM.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

shortnun is right though, in that we should not attack individual people on a personal level - that is very important. I apologize if I have done so

There is a difference however between judging someone's heart & making a judgement on someone's actions or what they say - if they are in conformity with the teachings of the Church or not.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

Just wanted to apologize again here for my critical remarks about a sister.

It's important to defend what the Church teaches, and not be afraid if people might disagree. But to attack people on a personal level, is never good. Thanks for pointing it out.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[johnnydigit]

i also found the topic slightly disturbing. i think that a person who is further along in their discernment is most likely to have sensed this from experience, while a newbie may not need to hear this information because it might influence them in a negative way (judging an order by their dress - which is the opposite of one of the very reasons for the habit!).

another misconception might be that those in full habits are more contemplative. we just can't assume. you have to find out the truth for yourself for each particular order. you may be surprised when you find out the reason the founder decided to go with their choice of habit.


anywho i guess for discussion's sake i would typically agree that those wearing traditional habits may be, well, traditional.. while those wearing non-traditional and modern habits may be, well, non-traditional and modern. just please take each one on an individual basis.

[Marieteresa]

wowzer, I can't believe that people are still voting in this poll....cool beans

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1429523' date='Dec 5 2007, 12:39 AM']wowzer, I can't believe that people are still voting in this poll....cool beans[/quote]

Indeed

And I also like the lack of logical connection between the statistics for the three questions

[VeniteAdoremus]

Reading back, I see that I voted but didn't comment "way back when"...

My answers: no, unsure, yes.

Unsure on the middle one because I try not to, but when I see unhabited sisters my first reaction is "liberal". I would like to say "no", but the fact is that I am not free of prejudice.

I think there is a common source in a community's spirituality that can lead to both desiring the TLM and wearing the habit. I don't think we will see many religious sisters in common clothes wanting the TLM as a community.

What I would be interested in as an additional poll question is the other side of #2: if a community wears the habit, do you consider them orthodox?

[InHisLove726]

LOL, I'm the one guilty of voting in this poll. "Johnny-Come-Lately" is my name. I have been reading old posts a lot lately. There is another poll about spirituality that I am guilty of resurfacing...

[TeresaBenedicta]

I'm sure there's the [i]possibility[/i] of there being solid, orthodox [i]orders[/i] (not individual sisters-- I think that's much more likely) that are unhabited. But honestly, I think that's pretty rare. Can anyone think of any? Perhaps something in foreign countries, would be my guess...

Although, I *think* this differs when it comes to men's communities.

But, usually when I see an unhabited sister, my first thought is "liberal." I'm trying to work on it... but it usually ends up being about right.

[VeniteAdoremus]

Well, we have one congregation... unfortunately, there aren't many left of them. They used to have a very peculiar veil, by the way:
[img]http://www.kapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/image004-2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/image047-2.jpg[/img]

I don't think they ever went beyond the Netherlands.

And unfortunately I needed to think for a while before I came up with them