The Cult Of The "santa Muerte"

[HS_Dad]

Not good.... The bishops in Mexico should speak out forcefully against this type of thing. It brings discredit to Catholicism amongst our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters.

Plus it is bad for the souls of practitioners.

[Mateo el Feo]

I'm a little confused, Budge. You claim "most were praising" this cult. Most who? Most Catholics? Most journalists? All I can find is rejection of this cult by the Church.

As far as your quote from "David Romo", I'll clean up your translation. He is the "primate Archbishop of the Mex-USA Traditional Church." He's not a Catholic bishop, though he might borrow the term "Catholic" in the same way that "Old Catholics" do. "Primate" means Romo is the top dog. He founded his own church...not unlike David Koresh or Jim Jones.

I found your first quote on the Univision website (from May 2005). Interestingly, you forgot to quote the paragraph which immediately preceeds your text:[quote]Sin embargo, esta organización no tiene nada que ver con el catolicismo y más aún, nunca mencionaron que su actividad consistía en orar por la intercesión de la Santa Muerte, que suele ser simbolizada con un esqueleto cubierto con una túnica.[/quote]
Google Translation with mods (I'm lazy):[quote]Nevertheless, this organization does not have anything to do with Catholicism and still more, never mentioned that its activities consisted of praying for the intercession of Saint Death, who is usually symbolized by a tunic-covered skeleton.[/quote]

As far as the second quote, I assume you are commending the priest's (and the archdiocese) rejection of the cult. Is that correct?

In any event, let me fix up your translation a little bit:

"Jesus conquered death, His enemy, the consequence and punishment of sin. How, then, are we going to call death "most holy"?

In short: we're talking about a cult which the Catholic Church rejects in no uncertain terms, including official statements which you have provided. Your post seems to indicate some level of acceptance of this cult by Catholics, but we have yet to see such proof.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='HS_Dad' post='1380139' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:03 AM']Not good.... The bishops in Mexico should speak out forcefully against this type of thing. It brings discredit to Catholicism amongst our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters.

Plus it is bad for the souls of practitioners.[/quote]Just to make sure you knew, the "Archbishop David Romo" quoted by Budge is not a Catholic bishop.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just some more interesting text from the original article (from the Foreign Military Studies Office of the US Army):

[color="#0000FF"][size=4]The Lord of the Rings[/size]

The [i]Santa Muerte [/i]cult appears to have little, if any, official organization. However, one personality is at the forefront of the cult. Monsignor David Romo Guillén, 47, AKA the Lord of the Rings ([i]El Señor de los Anillos[/i]) is the Archbishop and Primate of the so-called Mexican-U.S. Catholic Apostolic Traditional Church ([i]Católica Apostólica Tradicional México-USA AKA la Iglesia Católica Tradicionalista Mex-USA[/i]). Romo is a married father of five and a veteran of the Mexican Air Force, in which he claims to have served as an administrator. He is also the self-professed leader and guardian of the Santa Muerte cult. Since 2002, he has been leading masses at the National Sanctuary of Santa Muerte, located at Bravo 35 in the in Venustian Carranza delegation. Romo now boasts an attendance of 200-300 parishioners, mostly youths, at each mass. Many of these youths dress up in costumes for the occasion. The masses are held at midnight.

“Approximately 80 or 90 people [visit] daily, coming with their families, alone, or with companions. Likewise, we have an attendance of 200 or 300 persons twice weekly,” states Romo. He estimates that there are one million followers of Santa Muerte in Mexico.

Romo is also an ardent defender of the cult. [b]When José Guadalupe Martín Rábago, head of the Mexican Episcopal Conference (CEM) ([i]Conferencia del Episcopado Mexicano[/i]), and Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera [u]described the Santa Muerte Cult as Satanic[/u], Romo filed a defamation complaint before the Public Ministry (Ministerio Público).[/b] Martín stated that he would request the Interior Secretariat (SEGOB) (Secretaría de Gobernación), headed by Interior Secretary ([i]Secretario de Gobernación[/i]) Santiago Creel Miranda, to review the process of religious registration. Romo then stated that the devotion to Santa Muerte was not different from devotion to saints in other churches. He argued that Santa Muerte was a tool for evangelizing people in the marginalized sectors of society just as the Virgin of Guadalupe was a vehicle for converting Native Americans. At the time, SEGOB refused to intervene.[/color]

Again, the real picture shows a clear rejection of the cult by the Catholic Episcopacy.

[Mateo el Feo]

And some more from the Univision article:

[quote]No obstante, acepta que "el culto a la 'Santísima Muerte' ha cobrado a lo largo de los últimos años numerosos adeptos...[pero] ningún católico [romano] debe tener devoción a esa grotesca imagen que representa fundamentalmente todo aquello contra lo que Cristo luchó", apuntó finalmente el escrito del cura católico.

La decisión del gobierno mexicano se dio a raíz de que un sacerdote disidente del grupo pidió, el año pasado, que se investigara a la asociación religiosa, que considera a la Santa Niña Blanca como una servidora de Dios.

A lo que Romo comentó que la Secretaría de Gobernación se ha convertido en una oficina más del Vaticano.[/quote]Translation:[quote]However, he (i.e. padre Sergio Román) accepts that “the cult to the "Santísima Muerte" has received numerous followers in recent years… [but] no Roman Catholic should have devotion to that grotesque image that represents, fundamentally, all that against which Christ fought”, concluded the Catholic priest in his article.

The decision of the Mexican government occurred as a result of the request of a dissident priest of the group , the last year, that the religious association should be investigated, that considers to Santa Niña Blanca like a servant of God.

To which Romo commented that the Secretariat of Interior has become one more office of the Vatican.[/quote]So it's a Vatican conspiracy that the Mexican Government is taking action against this cult.

Budge, would you agree with Romo's Vatican conspiracy theory?

[Budge]

Hey I was being nice on this one saying I had found a Catholic cleric AGAINST IT. {and already said that other guy sounds like he is from another group]

Go reread my post.

[Mateo el Feo]

I read your post. You made it sound like he was the exception to the rule. Let me quote you:[quote]I did go try and find articles AGAINST this stuff, most were praising, but hey Ill be FAIR, I found at least one priest criticizing it in Mexcio so here you go.[/quote]I'll repeat my request. Show me proof that "most were praising" this cult.

I think it's funny that you and David Romo share the same conspiracy theories about the Vatican being out to get you.

[Budge]

Hmm Im surprised he hasnt had an invitation yet.

I found out Benny Hinns been there a few times.

[Winchester]

[url="http://pollak.thomasnet.com/item/back-up-alarms/ly-adjustable-back-up-alarm-107db-97db-12-24-volts/41-723?&forward=1"]Back up alarm[/url]
Here's a convenient link for ya, Budge. Maybe it will enable you to feel safe enough to back up when you should.

[Budge]

Dont you know how to use google winchester, youre so lazy...

[url="http://www.bennyhinn.org/resources/pope.cfm"]BENNY HINN VISITED VATICAN[/url]

[quote]Pastor Benny Joins Dignitaries at the Vatican
for Pope John Paul II Memorial Service

Pastor Benny recently joined dignitaries from around the world in Rome, Italy, to mourn the death of Pope John Paul II. At the invitation extended by a liaison to the Vatican, Pastor Benny participated in a private mass at St. Peter's Basilica for members of the Vatican staff who worked closely with the pontiff. Just a few feet from the body of the Holy Father lying in state, Pastor Benny joined in an inspiring service of music, liturgy, and eulogies of the man who led the Catholic Church for over twenty-six years.

Pastor Benny also appeared from the Vatican live on CNN News as a special contributor. [u]Of particular interest to CNN was Pastor Benny's proximity to the papacy brought about by two separate meetings with the pope in October 1987 and again at an intimate gathering in 1995 at the invitation of John Cardinal O'Connor.[/u]

Pastor Benny also appeared on-location from the Vatican on CBN's 700 Club with Chris Mitchell who asked Pastor Benny about the pope's influence in the world and among the Christian faith. Pastor Benny remarked that "the pope was a man who was guided by a love for the Lord Jesus Christ and whose legacy will be marked by an intense passion for evangelism." Pastor Benny also said that "the Pope's influence will have a lasting impact on Eastern Bloc nations where he helped open the way for the Gospel to be preached in that region."

Be watching This Is Your Day! for special on-site programs from the memorial service of Pope John Paul II and a special guest from inside the Vatican.[/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

So, when Budge loses an argument, she starts talking about Benny Hinn. What was #10 on her list of "Catholic tactics"? Hmmm...let's review:[quote name='Budge']* 10: Babbling technique

Remember when you were a kid. If you closed your eyes, danger would go away.
This technique is a variation on that theme. When backed into a corner, begin babbling about anything remotely related to the topic on hand and the opponent may forget that you were ever engaged in a debate in the first place. With all the other fine Apologetic techniques available, this one is usually not advised.[/quote]Just to remind you, Budge, it's time for you to prove your claim that "most were praising" the Santa Muerte cult. As usual, I end up wondering whether this falsehood is a result of your ignorance or an attempt to spread another anti-Catholic lie at us.

[Budge]

Where did I say most were praising it?

None of them are putting a stop to it.

Wouldnt some excommunications put an end to it pronto? [at least remove this stuff from YOUR churches, theyd all be forced to go to OUTSIDE churches]

Whats the use of having all these bishops and rest if they are all "helpless"?

I bet if some priests got married theyd be out the next day, but some parisioners go worship some demon, they whine and complain and let them stay in the church.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:36 PM']Where did I say most were praising it?[/quote]I've quoted you numerous times. Please don't feign ignorance.

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:36 PM']None of them are putting a stop to it.[/quote]What in the world are you talking about? The leader of the cult thinks there's a Vatican conspiracy trying to stop him.

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:36 PM']Wouldnt some excommunications put an end to it pronto?[/quote]Again, I ask the question: are you lamenting that the Catholic Church doesn't formally excommunicate enough people?

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:36 PM'][at least remove this stuff from YOUR churches, theyd all be forced to go to OUTSIDE churches][/quote]The cult has its own churches, outside the Catholic Church, and has registered itself with the Mexican government as its own distinct religion.

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:36 PM']Whats the use of having all these bishops and rest if they are all "helpless"?[/quote]Helpless to do what? We've got cardinals and bishops quoted explicitly denouncing the cult as incompatible with Catholicism. What more do you want?

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:36 PM']I bet if some priests got married theyd be out the next day, but some parisioners go worship some demon, they whine and complain and let them stay in the church.[/quote]Still trying tactic #10?

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1380982' date='Sep 8 2007, 12:26 PM']So, when Budge loses an argument, she starts talking about Benny Hinn. What was #10 on her list of "Catholic tactics"? Hmmm...let's review:Just to remind you, Budge, it's time for you to prove your claim that "most were praising" the Santa Muerte cult. As usual, I end up wondering whether this falsehood is a result of your ignorance or an attempt to spread another anti-Catholic lie at us.[/quote]

All falsehoods, whether out of genuine misunderstanding or outright malice (in the case of Budge, my money is on the latter) come from the fallen one.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380904' date='Sep 8 2007, 11:18 AM']Dont you know how to use google winchester, youre so lazy...

[url="http://www.bennyhinn.org/resources/pope.cfm"]BENNY HINN VISITED VATICAN[/url][/quote]
My back up alarm had nothing to do with Benny Hinn, everything to do with your translation and conclusions from your translation. Draw a map on your hand or something!

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381049' date='Sep 8 2007, 03:36 PM'][b]Where did I say most were praising it?[/b]
None of them are putting a stop to it.

Wouldnt some excommunications put an end to it pronto? [at least remove this stuff from YOUR churches, theyd all be forced to go to OUTSIDE churches]

Whats the use of having all these bishops and rest if they are all "helpless"?

I bet if some priests got married theyd be out the next day, but some parisioners go worship some demon, they whine and complain and let them stay in the church.[/quote]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379934' date='Sep 6 2007, 08:22 PM']Actually I can read Spanish. Not perfectly....but I go to foreign websites all the time for news including Spanish ones, some German, and French. Dont normal people do this, there are all sorts of fun European websites out there. I was downloading smilies off a German one the other day.

My Spanish isnt the best, but I can get the general gist. I did go try and find articles AGAINST this stuff, [b]most were praising[/b], but hey Ill be FAIR, I found at least one priest criticizing it in Mexcio so here you go.
I hope the first dude is not one of yours, for your sake.

The second guy, that is an obvious question.[/quote]

Could you please back this up with some facts? Names, quotes in context, etc....

[ruso]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379934' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:22 AM']Actually I can read Spanish. Not perfectly....but I go to foreign websites all the time for news including Spanish ones, some German, and French. Dont normal people do this, there are all sorts of fun European websites out there. I was downloading smilies off a German one the other day.

My Spanish isnt the best, but I can get the general gist. I did go try and find articles AGAINST this stuff, most were praising, but hey Ill be FAIR, I found at least one priest criticizing it in Mexcio so here you go.
I hope the first dude is not one of yours, for your sake.

The second guy, that is an obvious question.[/quote]
I wonder that type of Spanish understands Budge, she in another thread put a document in Portuguese saying that was Spanish.
Here the Spanish spoken goes in
España
Cualquiera lo diria amiga mia, tu comprension del español es peor que la mia del ingles, nunca habia visto una capacidad como la tuya para sacar frases de su contexto.
Argentina
¿Se podria saber porque sos vos tan pelotuda?
Mexico
Orale mi hijita, orale, no se me aburra y dele bronca a esos pendejos papistas.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='ruso' post='1382759' date='Sep 10 2007, 05:24 PM']España
Cualquiera lo diria amiga mia, tu comprension del español es peor que la mia del ingles, nunca habia visto una capacidad como la tuya para sacar frases de su contexto.
Argentina
¿Se podria saber porque sos vos tan pelotuda?
Mexico
Orale mi hijita, orale, no se me aburra y dele bronca a esos [b]pendejos papistas[/b].[/quote]
tsk, tsk....

[ruso]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1382790' date='Sep 11 2007, 01:11 AM']tsk, tsk.... [/quote]
Pendejo = Silly

Only is a phrase of animate for Budge.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ruso' post='1382833' date='Sep 10 2007, 08:11 PM']Pendejo = Silly

Only is a phrase of animate for Budge.[/quote]Outside of Spain, that word is quite strong...certainly stronger than "silly"!