Shake Off The Dust From Your Feet. ...

[Starets]

I also respect Jack Chick. It was through reading one of his tracts that I began the process of becoming Catholic in the first place. i found an historical inaccuracy in one of his tracts.

He claimed in one of his 80's tracts that the sign Constantine had his soldiers paint on their shields wasn't a cross but the "ankh" symbol. he even said that archeological evidence backed him up. so I did a bit of fact checking. I looked up the relevant section of K S Latourette's History of Christianity, which is one of the standard reference works on the subject, even if a bit dated. turns out that yes there was some shields with the "ankh" symbol but that the vast majority of the shields did indeed have a cross painted on them. That got me thinking. If he can bewrong about something that is so easy to doublecheck, maybe he's wrong about other things.

Then of course I found out that his main source of information about Catholicism in the first place, Alberto Rivera, was a fraud.

There were many other steps along the way, and many years passed between that and my reception into the Chruch, but that started the process going.

[Budge]

[quote]turns out that [b]yes there was some shields with the "ankh" symbol[/b] but that the vast majority of the shields did indeed have a cross painted on them.[/quote]

So he was right about some of the shields having an "ankh" symbol?

Seems that would speak more for him then against him.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379286' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:01 PM']I think its sad how you pawn eveyrone off as a "nutjob" that you disagree with.

Also if someone is sharing their sincere beliefs about a religion that is not LYING even if you believe said beliefs are wrong.[/quote]
Well, I never thought I'd live to see you speak in defense of the founder of a blatantly pagan cult/extortion ring such as the "Church of Scientology." (Though sadly, with your posts, I suppose nothing should surprise me anymore).

You yourself have had much harsher things to say about those whose beliefs [i]you[/i] disagree with - specifically Catholics, including the Popes.
Your criticism of me for calling the late Mr. Hubbard a "nutjob" (though "con man" is probably a more accurate description) is about as hypocritical as they come.

[quote]Hey I only post from articles and admit they are wrong about things. The Vatican has them over for interfaith pow-wows , thats definitely YOKING TOGETHER.

I still think the very fact the Catholic Church is deeply involved with a UU founded interfaith organization {WCRP} is of deep concern.[/quote]
Again, we've been over this before. This "yoking together" and "deeply involved with the UU" talk is your own accusations, which have been shown to be lacking in substance.
I don't beleive the UU is right about much of anything, so again your accusations concerning our beliefs are baseless.
And when I defend against your anti-Catholic attacks, I use Scripture, facts, and common sense. I don't go digging up some atheist-secularist rant against "fundamentalist Christians," though we all know they're quite easy to find these days.

[quote]You think you follow the same Jesus the four gospels teach about, I have some more hope for the less gung-ho Catholics who are more proto-Prots, but all of you who bow to the wafer and believe it is Jesus, you are following a false christ.

And if your standing on any other Rock but Jesus Christ, youre on sinking sand, no matter how great of a man Peter was.

[b]1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[/b][/quote]
Again, been there, done that.
It is quite clear both linguistically, and from the context of the passage (Matt. 13:16:19), that Christ gives Simon the new name "Peter" or "Rock," (a re-naming always has great significance in the Bible), and that he is the "Rock" upon which Christ builds his Church, entrusting Peter personally with the Keys of the Kingdom.
(This has already been argued in-depth on other threads, so look one up if want to debate this further.)
Jesus Christ, of course, remains the true Head of His Church.

[quote]Nothing like Catholic Masses through history and today...

no Latin, no ceremony, everyone breaking bread together...
Well that wasnt til the 1960s, so....before hand it did have to be said in Latin...[/quote]
Your own assertions, again.
As for Latin, that only applied to the Latin Rite. There were (and remain) a number of other ancient Rites of the Church, with Liturgies said in Greek and other languages, whose masses were always recognized as valid by the Church.
The first masses would have been in Aramaic or Hebrew. No knowlegable Catholic claims they were in Latin.
And if you truly study the Mass, much of it has its roots in Old Testament Jewish worship - the Mass being the perfect fulfillment of the Law.

Here you only betray your own ignorance.

[quote]Who cares if its in another language, the fact of the matter is, its a word used to cover, what is being done.[/quote]
You'd have to show where this word was being used, but I'd bet it was being used to clarify rather than confuse, as some words have more precise meaning in the language in which they were originally used than in English.
It seems you're just grasping for anything you hope to be able to use as a weapon of accusation.

[quote]Well it wouldnt be the Vatican just bored person here.
She still hasnt answered my question as to what religion she is?

It is very interesting to me how her confusion is so willingly tolerated here, none of you ever seem to correct her even as to Catholic teachings.[/quote]
I've argued with and corrected Dairy plenty of times myself, though I must admit more often than not I can't figure out what in tarnation she's trying to say.
If you have an issue with Dairygirl, take it up with her, and stop blaming everyone else.
This discussion of Dairygirl is irrelevent to the issues here, and is just diversionary babble.

[quote]Theres no Magisterium in the Bible either. {Jesus preached call no man MASTER {Magisterium}
Im sorry you dont see scripture as the main authority you should invest yourself in....love for Gods Word is a fruit of salvation.

The Catholic Church's biggest curse to the world is chaing scripture away from people's hearts.[/quote]
You are the one who claims that Scripture Alone can be used as the basis for any doctrine, so the burden of proof is on you to show where this doctrine of Sola Scriptura is found in Scripture.

This "chasing scripture away from people's hearts" talk is nonsense - bait and switch tactic, I see.
We Catholics have provided plenty of Scripture here which you have ignored or tried to "explain away" when it contradicts your own personal beliefs.

[quote]Name them? You think that the world loved true Christians and made them all "famous"? The real saints are those who died unknown all but to God. Rome has advanced the deceivers for centuries.

Even today most of the celeb pastors and more even outside of Catholicism are wolves in sheep's clothing, I doubt that has changed much. Why do you trust in people, that won the adulation and love of the world when Jesus taught the complete opposite.

Look at the Pope, cover of Time magazine, loved by the world also. Thats doesnt bode well.[/quote]
So you've admitted you cannot name one single non-Catholic "true Christian" from the first centuries of the Church's history, nor can you provide any form of evidence of their existence.
I guess those Evil Papists wiped out any trace of their existance as soon as the Bible was finished, along with all the Leprechauns and flying unicorns.
An argument with zero evidence to support it is weak indeed.

And most of the famous early Christians (whom you dismiss as "deceivers) were hardly "loved by the world", but suffered painful deaths as martyrs (by pagan Rome, nonetheless).

Being famous and known by the world is not necessarily the same as being of the world, or "loved by the world" either.
Jesus Christ was a pretty famous guy, as were John the Baptist, and St. Paul.

And the Popes, while famous, are frequently attacked by secularist liberals for their religious and moral teachings, as surely you must be aware.

(But it seems you want to have it both ways - when secularists vehemently attack and hate Catholics, that is proof of how evil Catholics are, but then you turn around and attack Catholics for being "loved by the world." - Again, no consistancy whatever; just whatever is handy at the moment to bash the Church with.)

Edited September 7, 2007 by Socrates

[jeffpugh]

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

This passage actually refers back to Moses striking the rocks on the desert, bringing forth lifegiving water. Jesus has referred many times to himself as living water. I know this, because I used to hang around some prots who would emphasise this and send around tracts and stuff. It's good stuff, full of hope. I think I still have one kicking around. I should see how sound it is before I say anything more either way though...


And so, if prots are "yoked to rome" because of our interest in interreligious dialogue, then does that make Budge unyoked to the Word if she's associating with Atheists to try and bring us down? Sounds about right to me.

[Budge]

Associating with atheists?

Because I quoted from an article?

Thats yoking?

You dont even know what "unequally yoked" even means do you?

[Budge]

[quote]his passage actually refers back to Moses striking the rocks on the desert, bringing forth lifegiving water. Jesus has referred many times to himself as living water. I know this, because I used to hang around some prots who would emphasise this and send around tracts and stuff. It's good stuff, full of hope. I think I still have one kicking around. I should see how sound it is before I say anything more either way though...[/quote]

hmm scripture says that the Rock is Christ, and Rome...Peter.

Im going with scripture.

Its not just "good stuff", its true!

[jeffpugh]

Well, there is two (possibly more) paradigms to the rock. The rock of the desert which issued livegiving water in the desert, and Christ the rock who issued life giving grace in the desert of sin. Then there is the rock in which the Church is built on. Wouldn't be the same rock as the flowing water. Wouldn't really make sense in that context, especially since it's been split open. You know, WATER came from Christ's side when he was split with the spear. Speaks volumes.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]hmm scripture says that the Rock is Christ, and Rome...Peter.

Im going with scripture.

Its not just "good stuff", its true![/quote]

Budge,

God is not the [b]only[/b] one who is referred to as the rock. So which scripture verse are you going with???

Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, you who seek the Lord:[b] look to the rock [/b]from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug. Look to[b] Abraham your father [/b]and to Sarah who bore you; for he was but one when I called him, that I might bless him and multiply him. (Isa 51:1-2)

Abraham is also called the [b]rock,[/b] as he is a [b]father figure[/b] to Israel. He was called by God, just as [b]Peter.[/b]

Wouldn't you know it, there goes that [b]father[/b] phrase!

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

What a quibble.

I know God is referred to as the Rock over 90 times in KJV alone.

So what does that tell you?

[Paladin D]

You know what's so amusing about all of this is?

None of us have converted to heresy because of Budge; infact, it's had the opposite affect. Our faith in Jesus Christ is getting stronger and we're becoming more determined with every post she makes.

Keep posting Budge, you're serving the Roman Pontiff and the Holy Mother Church well.


[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/PaladinD/Benedict-salute.jpg[/img]

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380873' date='Sep 8 2007, 10:41 AM']What a quibble.

I know God is referred to as the Rock over 90 times in KJV alone.

So what does that tell you?[/quote]

It tells us that Jesus is not the [b]only[/b] father figure. Someone as Abraham was chosen/appointed to LEAD JESUS PEOPLE.

Just as Jesus chose Peter.

[b]Feed [/b]and tend my [b]sheep,[/b] is what Jesus commanded Peter to do.

John20:15-17
15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”
He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
[b]Jesus said to Peter, "Feed My lambs."[/b]

16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”
He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
[b]"Jesus said to Peter, Tend My sheep. [/b]

17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”
And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”
[b]Jesus said to Peter, “Feed My sheep". [/b]

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

You have no faith in Jesus Christ,

your faith is in that guy in the picture you posted.

I have noticed that the Catholics here do not care about other Catholics.

They took down a thread I put up about some disabled and old nuns being thrown off a cheap property in Cal to pay off some sex scandals.

Anything that makes the hirelings look bad, got to rip it down.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380900' date='Sep 8 2007, 11:14 AM']You have no faith in Jesus Christ,

your faith is in that guy in the picture you posted.

I have noticed that the Catholics here do not care about other Catholics.

They took down a thread I put up about some disabled and old nuns being thrown off a cheap property in Cal to pay off some sex scandals.

Anything that makes the hirelings look bad, got to rip it down.[/quote]

Is that your response, Budge to the scripture verses??? Hmm....

Catholics have faith in every word of Jesus, Budge.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380900' date='Sep 8 2007, 12:14 PM']You have no faith in Jesus Christ,[/quote]

You have no faith in Jesus Christ, only in the Deceiver, [b]Satan[/b].


[quote]your faith is in that guy in the picture you posted.[/quote]

And you are serving him well.


[quote]I have noticed that the Catholics here do not care about other Catholics.

They took down a thread I put up about some disabled and old nuns being thrown off a cheap property in Cal to pay off some sex scandals.

Anything that makes the hirelings look bad, got to rip it down.[/quote]

I don't know who took the thread down, nor have I read it.

If your claim that "Catholics do not care about other Catholics" is true, then obviously you never heard of the [b]Knights of Columbus[/b]. Here's some statistics to hurl your way:

- The Knights of Columbus have [b]1.7 million members[/b] in the United States and in a handful of countries.
- Total contributions to charity at all levels reached [b]$143,816,004[/b] in the year 2006.
- Volunteer hours by Knights for charitable causes grew to [b]68,270,432[/b] in 2006.
- [b]393,807[/b] Knights of Columbus blood donors during the year 2006.
- Knights made more than [b]6 million visits[/b] to the sick and bereaved.

And the kicker...

- Cumulative figures show that during the past decade, the Knights of Columbus has donated nearly [b]$1.25 billion to charity[/b], and provided in excess of [b]593 million hours of volunteer service[/b] in support of charitable causes.


[size=6][b]Let me ask you this Budge...[/b][/size]

What are you doing?






[size=5][color="#0000FF"][b]In service to One, in service to all.[/b][/color][/size]

[size=5][color="#FF0000"][b]Charity, Unity, Fraternity, Patriotism.[/b][/color][/size]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/PaladinD/eomed.jpg[/img]

Edited September 8, 2007 by Paladin D

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1380897' date='Sep 8 2007, 11:10 AM']You know what's so amusing about all of this is?

None of us have converted to heresy because of Budge; infact, it's had the opposite affect. Our faith in Jesus Christ is getting stronger and we're becoming more determined with every post she makes.

Keep posting Budge, you're serving the Roman Pontiff and the Holy Mother Church well.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/PaladinD/Benedict-salute.jpg[/img][/quote]

Yes, P and Budge is losing ground on all her "claims." BG45 has even pointed this out in one of her posts.

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

[quote]I don't know who took the thread down, nor have I read it.

If your claim that "Catholics do not care about other Catholics" is true, then obviously you never heard of the Knights of Columbus. Here's some statistics to hurl your way:

- The Knights of Columbus have 1.7 million members in the United States and in a handful of countries.
- Total contributions to charity at all levels reached $143,816,004 in the year 2006.
- Volunteer hours by Knights for charitable causes grew to 68,270,432 in 2006.
- 393,807 Knights of Columbus blood donors during the year 2006.
- Knights made more than 6 million visits to the sick and bereaved.

And the kicker...

- Cumulative figures show that during the past decade, the Knights of Columbus has donated nearly $1.25 billion to charity, and provided in excess of 593 million hours of volunteer service in support of charitable causes.


Let me ask you this Budge...

What are you doing?[/quote]

BIG WHOOP.

Write a check then youre done...

Just more American claims of consumerist charity, put acouple hours in at a soupl kitchen for the year and send 5 dollar check.

Unimpressed.

The Masons do a lot of charity work too as well as the Mormons.


So what?

Do the Knights realize they have lost all their possible rewards in heaven [if they were actually saved Christians] for their good works by advertising them to the dime?

This is why I dont share any good works here that I do...thats biblical, dont you folks know that...

[Budge]

Oh for rest of thread.

Your Popes have about as much to do with Peter {the apostle in the Bible] as much as coagulated milk has to do with cigarrettes.
[b]

"Why did PETER not know HE was the 1st Pope of the entire body of Christianity?"[/b]

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, [u]a servant and an apostle[/u] of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:


Just "a servant and apostle" as Peter describes himself.

Contrast that HUMBLE language with the ARROGANT assertations of the Pope throughout history, that they are the VICAR [replacement of - representative of] Christ himself.

Interesting, huh?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381051' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:40 PM']BIG WHOOP.

Write a check then youre done...

Just more American claims of consumerist charity, put acouple hours in at a soupl kitchen for the year and send 5 dollar check.

Unimpressed.[/quote]

Now kids, this is what you call a [b]cop-out[/b]. This individual's favorite pass time is to preach the message of Satan and spread hate in the disguise of love, claiming it's Christ message. However, when there are 1.7 million [b]Christian men[/b] who are making the world a better place by practicing what Jesus preached by helping the poor, clothing the naked, and etc, it goes against her beliefs.




[quote]Do the Knights realize they have lost all their possible rewards in heaven [if they were actually saved Christians] for their good works by advertising them to the dime?[/quote]

It's wonderful to spread the news how effective Christ is working through the labor of our hands, making this world a better place for the glory of Christ.


[quote]This is why I dont share any good works here that I do...thats biblical, dont you folks know that...[/quote]

I never would've known that. You seem to find it [b]Biblical[/b] to make known of your hatred though. Quite contradictory I would say.

[Budge]

[quote]However, when there are 1.7 million Christian men who are making the world a better place by practicing what Jesus preached by helping the poor, clothing the naked, and etc, it goes against her beliefs.[/quote]

You misunderstand, I want people to help the poor, cloth naked, but do a bit more then just write a check to some behemoth organization where the money will probably go for overhead then to actually help anyone.

Huge charities have become big businesses and something is lost in that way.
[quote]It's wonderful to spread the news how effective Christ is working through the labor of our hands, making this world a better place for the glory of Christ.[/quote]

Couldnt that be called showing off?

Dont you know its unbiblical to brag of your works? or even to TELL ANYONE THEM?
I cant remember the exact verse, but Jesus speaks of those using works to make themselves look good..."They have their reward"

I dont hate anyone. I hate that powerful people like your bishops abuse the weak. I hate people being taught false doctrine. I hate people being taught a works based gospel that obliterates the true gospel of JEsus Christ.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381117' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:26 PM']You misunderstand, I want people to help the poor, cloth naked, but do a bit more then just write a check to some behemoth organization where the money will probably go for overhead then to actually help anyone.

Huge charities have become big businesses and something is lost in that way.
Couldnt that be called showing off?

Dont you know its unbiblical to brag of your works? or even to TELL ANYONE THEM?
I cant remember the exact verse, but Jesus speaks of those using works to make themselves look good..."They have their reward"

I dont hate anyone. I hate that powerful people like your bishops abuse the weak. I hate people being taught false doctrine. I hate people being taught a works based gospel that obliterates the true gospel of JEsus Christ.[/quote]

Does anyone noticed how more and more Budge is twistinig scripture to suit her hatred for the Catholic Church and the 99% of bishops who are evil or anyone including big businesses and or charities who are "supposedly showing off."

Budge you need a [b]vacation[/b] from all your hate and gnashing of the Catholic Church or anything that does not conform to the authority of 'your' word.