Luke 10:16

["Kyrie eleison"]

Luke 10:16

16
Whoever listens to [b]you[/b] listens to me. Whoever rejects [b]you[/b] rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Do protestants believe that Jesus is stating these words?

And if they don't believe that Jesus is speaking these words, then who is?

Who is the [b]you [/b]that Jesus is referring to in this scripture verse?

[Budge]

The apostles.

Your Popes, Bishops, Cardinals and priests are not today's apostles.

Apostolic succession is one of Rome's most insidious teachings.

Gal. 1:8 But though we, or [b]an angel from heaven[/b], preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The real apostles were pretty serious about those warnings.


And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; [b]that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,[/b] that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.1Co 4:6

Right here the apostles are pointing to scripture as more binding then following men.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]The apostles.

Your Popes, Bishops, Cardinals and priests are not today's apostles.[/quote]

Are you agreeing that Jesus is speaking in Luke 10:16 and that he is speaking to his apostles and giving them authority and then denying his promises to them in Matthew 28:20?

Matthew 28
16 [b]"The eleven disciples[/b]" went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you[b]. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." [/b]

Would you please make up your mind...

[quote]Apostolic succession is one of Rome's most insidious teachings.[/quote]

Jesus Christ made provision to pass on the authority from generation to generation, to this day...

Psa 109:8, [b]"...[/b][b]May another take up his duties."[/b]

Acts 1:20, [b]"...And his ministry let another take."[/b]

"You have not chosen Me, [b]but I have chosen you, and have appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should[/b] [b]REMAIN[/b]...," Jn 15:16.

Acts 20:32, "And now I commend you to GOD and to the Word of His grace, [b]who is able to build up and to give the inheritance among all the sanctified.[/b]

All of these scripture verses point to the passing on of the baton.

[quote]Gal. 1:8 But though we, or [b]an angel from heaven[/b], preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The real apostles were pretty serious about those warnings.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; [b]that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,[/b] that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.1Co 4:6

Right here the apostles are pointing to scripture as more binding then following men.[/quote]

Budge can you tell us when God's promise to his apostles ceased to exist, as the apostles continued to pass on their AUTHORITY in apostolic succession by the laying on of the hands.

Acts 19:6, " and [b]when Paul LAID HIS HANDS on THEM, the Holy Spirit came upon them[/b], and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy."

God did not give his apostles authority and promises to be with them till the end of time and not make provisions for this authority to continue.

God is not the author of confusion.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]QUOTE
Apostolic succession is one of Rome's most insidious teachings.[/quote]

Budge,

The 'Laying on of hands' IMPARTS authority and leadership in the Old Testament, just as in the New T. and in no way is Rome's insidious teachings.

Num 27:15-23, Then Moses said to the Lord, [b]"May the Lord, the GOD of the spirits of all mankind, set over the community a man who shall act as their LEADER IN ALL THINGS, TO GUIDE THEM IN ALL THEIR ACTIONS; THAT THE LORD'S COMMUNITY MAY NOT BE LIKE SHEEP WITHOUT A SHEPHERD." [/b][b]And the Lord replied to Moses,[/b] [b]"Take Joshua, son of Nun, a man of spirit, and LAY YOUR HANDS UPON HIM. Have him stand in the presence of the priest Eleazar and of the whole community, and COMMISSION HIM before their eyes. Invest him with some of your own dignity, that the whole Israelite community may OBEY him.[/b] He shall present himself to the priest Eleazar, to have him seek out for him the decisions of the Urim in the Lord's presence; and as He directs, Joshua, all the Israelites with him, and the community as a whole shall perform all their actions[b]." Moses did as the Lord had commanded him.[/b][b] Taking Joshua and having him stand in the presence of the priest Eleazar and of the whole community, HE LAID HIS HANDS ON HIM and gave him his COMMISSION, as the LORD HAD DIRECTED THROUGH MOSES."[/b]

Jesus never leaves his sheep without a visible shepherd. Moses the shepherd (LEADER) of Jesus people imparted the passing on of authority by[b] the laying on of the hands[/b] and the whole community was to OBEY him, by the COMMAND of JESUS.

We are following the words of Jesus.

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[BG45]

If I might, before dinner, add something regarding Apostolic Succession? The Apostle Matthias was touched upon in one of your quotes "Kyrie Eleison", but if I might expound on that quote to provide some context?


[quote]"In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as a guide for those who arrested Jesus--he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms: 'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."[/quote]
ACTS 1:15-26

["Kyrie eleison"]

BG,

Apostolic authority has been passed down by laying on of the hands (ordination) in unbroken succession through the Bishops of the Church fo overr two thousand years, in that the Bishops of this day are the voice of Jesus Christ through the Apostles.

Every Catholic Bishop can show his line of spiritual descent, all the way back to the Apostles.

Acts 20:28, "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as Bishops, to rule the Church of God.

This line was broken during the reformation when Luther broke away from the Catholic church.

[Anomaly]

How do you explain those who rejected Judas? Jesus picked him and sent him.

How about those who reject Lefebvre, Mahoney, Law, or "Tiny" the Dutch Bishop?

Edited September 9, 2007 by Anomaly

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1381647' date='Sep 9 2007, 09:25 AM']How do you explain those who rejected Judas? Jesus picked him and sent him.

How about those who reject Lefebvre, Mahoney, Law, or "Tiny" the Dutch Bishop?[/quote]

Jesus went on to commission his apostles to preach and teach, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit and promising to be with them till the end of this age. Matthew 28: 18-20. Those who are chosen or who are called to be in his church have a free-will, they are not exempt of tempation or sin.

Despite the betrayal or sins of Judas, or any priest or bishop in Jesus time and present, the word of the gospel has been be preserved and propogated, to this day.

Bishops are to care for the souls of the faithful and if they deviate from the teachings of the church they will be checked and warned and by their actions could be excommunicated, until then we are under their care, unlike those in protestantism, they break off if they disagree. They find another church who they agree with or start their own church. I have even heard of those on protestant boards who say they are so fed up that they only believe in their "own" interpretation of the word of god.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1381667' date='Sep 9 2007, 11:51 AM']Jesus went on to commission his apostles to preach and teach, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit and promising to be with them till the end of this age. Matthew 28: 18-20. Those who are chosen or who are called to be in his church have a free-will, they are not exempt of tempation or sin.

Despite the betrayal or sins of Judas, or any priest or bishop in Jesus time and present, the word of the gospel has been be preserved and propogated, to this day.

Bishops are to care for the souls of the faithful and if they deviate from the teachings of the church they will be checked and warned and by their actions could be excommunicated, until then we are under their care, unlike those in protestantism, they break off if they disagree. They find another church who they agree with or start their own church. I have even heard of those on protestant boards who say they are so fed up that they only believe in their "own" interpretation of the word of god.[/quote]
Generalizations that aren't applicable.
So you think everyone should have held their tongues in check regarding the Dutch Bishop? I'm asking where do YOU draw the line? Those who followed LeFebvre would argue they don't want to disagree with the Church, it's that other Bishops were disobeying what the Church was teaching.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1381673' date='Sep 9 2007, 11:00 AM']Generalizations that aren't applicable.
So you think everyone should have held their tongues in check regarding the Dutch Bishop? I'm asking where do YOU draw the line? Those who followed LeFebvre would argue they don't want to disagree with the Church, it's that other Bishops were disobeying what the Church was teaching.[/quote]

As a Catholic I am bound by the teachings of the church, just as priests and bishops. I am not above them. Of course, we as the faithful have our opinions. In the case of calling God allah, I personally don't have a problem with that. Muslims believe in the ONE ALMIGHTY GOD, who is the CREATOR of HEAVEN and EARTH and the church acknowledges allah. Where do I draw the line? God is in charge of the Church and I have faith and trust that God is leading his Church, his Bride, into all truth and will clean out his church in due time, not in my time, but his time, as his ways are not my ways.

I stand on his word that he promised to be with his apostles till the end of this age, regardless of sins of the church. I am here for the long haul.

["Kyrie eleison"]

In the OT the temple was cleansed , 2Chron 29:16

As the temple in the New Testament, and by Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 21:12-13.

"So now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone. For if this plan or work, is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it. Else perhaps you may find yourselves fighting even against GOD.."
Acts 5:38-39

Jesus promised that the gates will not prevail against it, the church founded by Christ on Peter, the rock and the apostles and I a faithful follower of Christ, believe in his promises.
Matthew 16:18

[Anomaly]

ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
What does it mean, "the gates of hell will not prevail against it?"
Explain that.
Does it mean bishops will be perfect?
Does it mean we have to obey bishops when they're not?
How much can a Catholic disagree or disobey and still be a Catholic?
What is the 'carp' limit that a Catholic must accept? A polka mass? Disallowing Latin Mass? 24 'Extraordinary Eucharistic Minsisters at every Mass? Railing against making illegal immigrants obey the law? Using hard-core lawyers to prevent paying sex scandal vicitims? Shuffling priests? Spending 1/2 billion on a new Cathedral when the Diocese is bankrupt? Performing same-sex couple blessings? Creating another 'felt and banner' religious education program? Selling indulgences to build a new parish hall? Protesting against rules that disallow gay men from being priests? Seminaries that only graduate people with sibilant lisps? Etc., etc., etc.

Love it or leave it? How much to love? What to leave? Which priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope? Is it clear if you have a Master of Catholic Canon Law and Theortical Theological Application Degree? Does it depend on what the definition of "is" is?

[Paddington]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1381096' date='Sep 8 2007, 06:44 PM']Luke 10:16

16
Whoever listens to [b]you[/b] listens to me. Whoever rejects [b]you[/b] rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."



Who is the [b]you [/b]that Jesus is referring to in this scripture verse?[/quote]

This verse actually applies to when a girl rejects me.

[jeffpugh]

[Dismas]

In an answer to Anomaly's questions:

It means that the Bride of Christ, that is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church cannot be utterly vanquished. Bad things can happen, sometimes horrific things. Entire regions may be lost to the heathen, but even so, the Church will stand.

Nope, imperfect sinners each and every one - starting with Peter.

You must obey your pastor in all things but sin. Likewise with your bishop. Likewise with the reigning Pope.

You may disagree with many things, so long as your position does not contradict defined dogmas of the Church. You may disobey any command that would be sinful.

I don't personally know, as that's up to Jesus. I do know that "carp" wagon isn't close to full.

If it's the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Jesus, then endure it for and with Him. After all, Jesus has to, and I'm not sure Jesus likes polka.

Sure, that cross you have to carry just got ten pounds heavier, but nowhere near as heavy as the world. Take it on the chin and offer it up.

Yup, then you get to turn your cheek so you can watch as 95% of the people receiving Jesus are received into people's hands. Perhaps if your blood isn't boiling over yet, perhaps you should kneel down and kiss the sinful priest's hands and place your head upon them, just like St. Francis.

That face of yours is sure getting bruised. Offer it up. If Cardinal Mahoney really does bother you, it is your right as an American citizen to move to Lincoln, Nebraska.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Better to suffer with a clean soul than to let the scandal bring you to sin.

Keep your kids close. At least Jesus is still in that tabernacle.

It's a grotesque monument to the vanity and the architectural cult of "Gosh aren't I clever". Poor Jesus is within that thing. Looks like some brave soul will have to sit through Mass and perhaps a holy hour or two to keep poor Jesus company.

You can rebuke your bishop for committing such an objective evil. He might not listen, even if you use that old phrase from Anathasius regarding the pavement in Hell. You don't have to bear witness to it, as it is not a sacramental marriage. He's still your bishop, and unless you move, you have to deal with it.

If that's what it takes to get your kids First Holy Communion and Confirmation, yes. It doesn't mean you can't go through the CCC with the kids on the side. I'd actually admire such courage.

Don't buy 'em. After all, you can get a plenary indulgence once a day just for doing a daily "Stations of the Cross". I'd recommend this one too, so would the souls in Purgatory.

You don't run the seminary, so it's not your sin.

Pray for the priests. The prayers of the Faithful are the armor of the priesthood. Just ask the Cure.

Love Jesus. Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Obey your mama, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Benedict XVI first. Your bishop second. Your priest third.

Actually, I prefer weekly confession, daily Mass, the Hours, a Holy Hour, the Rosary and don't skimp on reading the Scriptures. If things are still not clear, I'd suggest a silent retreat in the care of an orthodox Order (I'm going to Marytown, IL later this year). If you still can't figure things out, I might suggest joining Fr. Corapi as a hermit.

Oral sex is still sex. Illegal land deals are still illegal, no matter how much you "don't recall". A double-tap to the back of the skull is never suicide without the help of lots of pulleys.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1381736' date='Sep 9 2007, 01:02 PM']ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
What does it mean, "the gates of hell will not prevail against it?"
Explain that.
Does it mean bishops will be perfect?
Does it mean we have to obey bishops when they're not?
How much can a Catholic disagree or disobey and still be a Catholic?
What is the 'carp' limit that a Catholic must accept? A polka mass? Disallowing Latin Mass? 24 'Extraordinary Eucharistic Minsisters at every Mass? Railing against making illegal immigrants obey the law? Using hard-core lawyers to prevent paying sex scandal vicitims? Shuffling priests? Spending 1/2 billion on a new Cathedral when the Diocese is bankrupt? Performing same-sex couple blessings? Creating another 'felt and banner' religious education program? Selling indulgences to build a new parish hall? Protesting against rules that disallow gay men from being priests? Seminaries that only graduate people with sibilant lisps? Etc., etc., etc.

Love it or leave it? How much to love? What to leave? Which priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope? Is it clear if you have a Master of Catholic Canon Law and Theortical Theological Application Degree? Does it depend on what the definition of "is" is?[/quote]

Anomoly,

Jesus set the foundation and Jesus gave authority to certain apostles, some more than others, such as Peter, whom Jesus gave the keys to bind and loose.

'He who hears hears my apostles, hears me, he who rejects my apostles, rejects my church on which I founded, on my apostles, and when you reject my church, I gave authority, you reject me.

What Luke 10:16 ASSURES US that the church is free from teaching heresy, so when the Pope speaks in matters of faith and morals, he is speaking as Christ would and with His authority.


Paul acknowledged the authority given to the Apostles in 2Cor 10:8, "For even if I boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord has given for your upbuilding, and not for your destruction, I shall not be put to shame."

Jesus gave authority to 72 other disciples in Lk 10:1-12, and told them He sends them forth as 'lambs in the midst of wolves'. He told them to shake the dust off their feet from the towns that do not receive them.

"...that you should set right anything that is defective and should appoint presbyters (priests) in every city as I myself directed you to do," Titus 1:5. Paul commands them to make new priests.


We are commanded to OBEY our superiors (priests, Bishops, and the Pope) and to be subject to them, as they keep watch as having to render an account of our souls, Heb 13:17.

As I stated earlier, I as a Catholic believe in this authority that Jesus gave his apostles and this authority has been passed down from generation to generation, to present day. Our church can trace it's succession all the way back to the apostles.

Does this mean that they are perfect? No.

Does this mean that every priest and bishop will not be free from sin? No.

What it does mean is that Jesus founded a church on his apostles and gave them authority, and Jesus made sure that this authority would be propagated throught the centuries. Regardless, of their shortcoming/sins, great and small the "polka dances", his hierarchy has UPHELD the teachings of Jesus, as Jesus promised he would REMIND THEM of EVERYTHING that he has TAUGHT THEM and NEVER LEAVE THEM ORPHANS.

The gates of hell will not prevail against it.


Speaking to his apostles and [b]only[/b] to his apostles in John 14

[b]16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you ALWAYS,
17 [/b][b]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. [/b]
19
In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
Judas, not the Iscariot, 11 said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
25
"I have told you this while I am with you.
[b]26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and REMIND you of all that (I) told you. [/b]

Anomoly, You still haven't answered the initial question regarding Luke 10:16. and what does this command of Jesus mean to you and when did this command cease to exist and by whose authority?????

[Anomaly]

It's Anomaly, 1 o and 2 a.

As I've pointed out, your question is too ambiguous. What do YOU mean by 'rejecting' a Bishop? What do YOU identify as the parameters of Bishop authority that cannot be rejected? You had said that Bishops aren't perfect. But are you saying they are to be obeyed when they are being sinful?

Edited September 10, 2007 by Anomaly

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1382726' date='Sep 10 2007, 04:44 PM']It's Anomaly, 1 o and 2 a.

As I've pointed out, your question is too ambiguous. What do YOU mean by 'rejecting' a Bishop? What do YOU identify as the parameters of Bishop authority that cannot be rejected? You had said that Bishops aren't perfect. But are you saying they are to be obeyed when they are being sinful?[/quote]



If what the bishops or priests institute are within the teachings of the church and their authority and it is not a sin, we are obliged to obey. In the end the Pope exercises full and immediate universal authority.

["Kyrie eleison"]

“If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15-17)

[BG45]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1381605' date='Sep 9 2007, 03:32 AM']BG,

Apostolic authority has been passed down by laying on of the hands (ordination) in unbroken succession through the Bishops of the Church fo overr two thousand years, in that the Bishops of this day are the voice of Jesus Christ through the Apostles.

Every Catholic Bishop can show his line of spiritual descent, all the way back to the Apostles.

Acts 20:28, "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as Bishops, to rule the Church of God.

This line was broken during the reformation when Luther broke away from the Catholic church.[/quote]

Kyrie (hope you don't mind the abrieviation,

I had a lovely reply thought out, supported in depth by Scripture. However, I told myself before hitting reply, I should do something that would take "just a minute". That was five hours ago...so please forgive the sloppiness of this.

Isaiah 22:22 is a passage which speaks of Eliakim, whom is given "And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open." It goes on to describe a nail/peg that will hold him up, only to be cut down later; a temporary giving of authority.

Matthew 16:19 sounds awfully familiar after the reading of Isaiah 22:22, "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.""

Interestingly, whereas the authority is in a way revoked in the case of Eliakim in a few short verses, the authority given unto Peter is not; at least as far as I can tell in a reading of Scripture. Now I know by this point I'm probably getting from some a "This has nothing to do with the quoted text", but it does in a way. It's a paltry, on my part, defense of the Apostolic Succession in which I have never believed in, but am willing to admit that it (Apostolic Succession) makes a good deal of sense both Biblically in and a Historic context.