Mother Teresa And Universalism

[thessalonian]

I was listening to a radio program on Protestant radio on Saturday that had a segment on Catholicism. Not good of course. Many misrepresentations. But I found one part downright odd. There is a quote spread all over the internet about Muslems being good Muslems and Hindu's being better Hindu's by Mother Teresa. Protestants use this to claim she was universalist. This guy, Ron Carlson, was asked "Was Mother T a universalist? Answer: "She definitely was". But what struck me as odd was that later he said that he heard Mother T say "I hope I have done enough good to get to heaven" and that she was living in a works righteousness system. (i.e. you have to do good to get to heaven, i.e. not everyone goes to heaven). Now isn't universalism that EVERYONE goes to heaven? Last I checked it was. Wonder if these folks actually listen to what they say and think about it? In truth it was just a bashing of Mother Teresa.

The debate is is this a contradiction? Was Mother T a Universalist? How about it Budge. I think you've made this same statement before.

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

u·ni·ver·sal·ism /ˌyunəˈvɜrsəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[yoo-nuh-vur-suh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. universal character; universality.
2. a universal range of knowledge, interests, or activities.
[b]3. (initial capital letter) the doctrine that emphasizes the universal fatherhood of God and the final salvation of all souls. Compare apocatastasis (def. 2). [/b]

[N/A Gone]

Thes,

sometimes...ok, often in protestantism using the term universalism in a negative sense is not the theology that all can be saved, rather it is the idea that any system can bring about salvation. Saying that Islam can be used to achieve salvation, or Hindu in the case of your post.

It undermines the mental acceptance action of the converstion experience. Someone cant say "I believe in Jesus christ" if they have never heard of him. Yet the idea of theosis, or even grace does not exist in a fundamentalist theology. And it is even worse if they are calvinistic. Look at the current debate on "anoynomous christian theory" for a good example.

but, in a nutshell. You are speaking of a different type of univeralism. Moltmann and HVB have wrote about your type.

[thessalonian]

Show me a dictionary with their type in it?

[N/A Gone]

I have an undergrad in theology from a protestant bible college and that is what we were taught.

BS Gen Ministry(pastoral leadership)
BS Biblical/theological studies.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Revprodeji

[thessalonian]

Looks like the more proper term they might use is inclusivism. Looking online I see no dictionary that says what she allegedly taught was universalism.

[url="http://www.spreadinglight.com/theology/dictionary/inclusivism.html"]http://www.spreadinglight.com/theology/dic...nclusivism.html[/url]

I know of your background Rev. They can't change the english language because they feel like it. Universalism means everyone is saved and if that is the case then they are contradicting themselves by saying she was worried about her salvation.

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I could be wrong, but I believe Budge is on vacation again.

[N/A Gone]

[quote]They can't change the english language because they feel like it.[/quote]

You know that is the basis of much of protestant theology. Right? Revisionist language is a major issue. Words get their meanings changed in order fit an individual angle. sacrament/church/keys/etc the list goes on.


[quote]Universalism means everyone is saved and if that is the case then they are contradicting themselves by saying she was worried about her salvation.[/quote]

I have read Moltmann (protestant theologian that has written about universalism) and the Hans Von Balthasar "Dare we Hope" I understand the theology and I bounce back and forth on it. Leaving it up to grace.

My point is, under my usage of the word "universalism" the quote from the radio makes sense. Under the real def of the word the quote makes no sense. Hence the contradiction.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1383414' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:49 AM']I could be wrong, but I believe Budge is on vacation again.[/quote]

yes. She was raptured. Kirk Cameron came in the taxi cab

[Archaeology cat]

One of my acquaintances, who does a lot of mission work, likes to quote that statement by Mother Theresa (note: this is a charismatic Protestant I'm speaking of). His interpretation of it is that you teach the people to be the best (Hindu, Muslim, etc) they can be, but in so doing they will realise that it isn't enough and will come to truly worship God. It's an interesting take on the quote. Just my, slightly off-topic, $0.02.

Oh, and no, using the dictionary definition, Mother Theresa would not be considered a universalist, I don't think.

[thessalonian]

Rev we need to put you in a dark room with loud music and just start over with a clean slate.

[N/A Gone]

ouch,

WHy is that? Although with open theism I agree. I cant shake that still. Maybe I should open that up again?

My protestant theology grew into catholicism. I think any protestant that is true to himself in growing as a christian in understanding will grow into catholicism unless bound by any outside force. Ala a denomination.

[N/A Gone]

DP

Edited September 11, 2007 by Revprodeji

[adt6247]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1383452' date='Sep 11 2007, 12:21 PM']ouch,

WHy is that? Although with open theism I agree. I cant shake that still. Maybe I should open that up again?

My protestant theology grew into catholicism. I think any protestant that is true to himself in growing as a christian in understanding will grow into catholicism unless bound by any outside force. Ala a denomination.[/quote]
I'd like to amend that. Anyone who is genuinely exposed to Christ's church who honestly and prayerfully seeks the truth as their first priority will end up Catholic.

[thessalonian]

I was only kidding rev. we luv ya.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1383468' date='Sep 11 2007, 11:37 AM']Anyone who is genuinely exposed to Christ's church[/quote]

I was not exposed to an actual catholic church until near the end of my decision to convert. Authority issues, patristic writings and a quote from Sean (l_d) pretty much did it for me.

Authority issue- many different denominations all claiming something different, the idea that my salvation was dependant on either finding the right guru among the gurus or using my limited intel with an ancient book really worried me. It got to the point that if I was not catholic I would have been a pseudo agnostic. Similar to Anomaly. Not angry because people have sinned, but rather convinced that we have all screwed up theology beyond the point of knowing truth.

Patristics-Augustine mostly, but otherwise knowing the depth of the theology, the importance of unity and the sacraments.

L_D, while attempting to spank me on open theism. Wrote



[quote]...I believe that something that is true is intrinsically rational. Even though the ultimate subject matter of Christian theology is beyond our threshold of reason, theology as such exists in a continuum and thus conforms to the structures of rationality. The intrinsic relationship between truth and reason, even truths of faith and natural reason, is not severed.
Now since Christianity is not merely a set of postulates but is in fact a historical reality rooted in actual historical events, it follows logically to my mind that Christian belief as seen through a historical context must have an essential continuity otherwise it can rightly be described as absurd.
Therefore, a doctrine or system of theology which fundamentally undermines the historical continuity of christian belief cannot coexist with the assertion that Christianity is true. One might be able to suggest that their particular brand of Christian belief is true, but then they are speaking of a personal system of belief, not a revelation which transcends the individual and is rooted in historical events. As disrespectful as it may sound, I see persons such as Dr. Boyd to be less like Christian teachers and more like gurus who happen to use the Bible.

Just so you know there is much more I have to say regarding this point. I hope that it has been made sufficiently nonetheless...[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think it's funny that amoungest the in the knows of christianity, that someone like mother teresa can become the source of heated debate. step back and look at the situtaion protestants.... it's mother teresa for God's sake. only shows how far some people are willing to go to argue their position when it's really absurd to anyone who's looking on.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i disagree with L_D's post from rev though. a personal belief system it may be, but that doesn't mean it doenst contain much truth, even organic truth.

[thessalonian]

Both of these individuals that were saying that Mother T was a universalist have Dr. before their names. Dr. Jason Carlson and Dr. Ron Carlson. Makes you wonder what kind of Doctorates protestants are putting out if they don't even know the english language. By the way rev, this was on Jan Markell's show. If anyone wants to listen and send her a comment it's at:

[url="http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/"]http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/[/url]

September 8, 2007 - Hour 2
Dr. Ron Carlson, Jason Carlson,

Ron can be reached at:

'ron@christianministriesintl.org' and jason at 'jason@christianministriesintl.org'

The email addresses are public.

They did the old resacrificing Christ in the Eucharist and Catholicism is works based salvation as well tap dance distortion.

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[LouisvilleFan]

Okay, this thread devolved into Protesting bashing and hardly addressed the original question. How should we respond to these quotes that are allegedly from Mother Teresa? I liked the interpretation offered by Archaeology cat. Maybe that's not how Momma T intended it, but I suspect that she had to be careful about the subject of evangelism considering her presence in a mostly Muslim and Hindu society. Plus, most of these people they ministered too were probably too sick to be concerned about their religious affiliation. Their ministry was focused on showing Christ's love through their presence and caring, rather than preaching.

Another possibility is that she never said these things. Has anyone even verified these are true quotes?

When someone raised this question over on Relevant Magazine, I responded with a number of quotes related to the Eucharist and other things that left no room for doubt about her Catholicism, just to show that whether the quotes are true or not, they are almost surely taken out of context.

However, I wasn't able to find out specifically when (or if) she said these things. Not that it's keeping me up at night, but it would be nice to know for future reference

Edited September 11, 2007 by LouisvilleFan