Another Works Thread

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, granted it'd be cooperating with God's grace. as they said in trent...

[quote]Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man[/quote]

and as cathos always say... justification is a process.

so while i attempted the best i coudl to explain it... these two questions linger somewhat.

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

[Mercy me]

I really have never understood this whole argument. To me it is simple, the more we love the Lord the more we want to please him. He has told us how to do by serving others. Service flows from the love of the Lord but it is by His grace that we are redeemed.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1530082' date='May 15 2008, 11:44 PM']I don't believe in once saved always saved, necessarily. i mean, if you define one who falls away as not saved to begin with, then sure, whatever. but there's many who fall away, and that's in the bible.

but, how is you catholics response to these two issues:

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

i answered them the best i could, but they seem like weak points in your argument.

OSAS and justification, are two different things, but are related, so keep this in mind in deciding how to respond.

perhaps analogies are in order. i bet a lot could come down to an inherent difference of opinion abotu which analogy is better.[/quote]

I don't either.

It's the parable of th seeds really.

There are those who first believe, but because they're hearts weren't properly made ready, the seed only had very little roots to it, and when conflict arises, what growth they did receive is obliterated, and they leave the faith.

And there is also people who believe, and get caught up in the world and the things of the world, and serving God becomes just another one of those things for them, not really giving their entire lives to Jesus. Such luke warm Christians/Catholics will find that their faiths will be eventually tested, and they are either going to leave the faith, or not - like the first type!

And then, there are those who have good soil and no love for this world, and the plants they grow are outstanding. Those individuals will be saved from the moment they believe to the moment they die, because they see through all the illusions.

You see, personally, I hate (don't hate, appreciate) this world order. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) how things get nit picked to create division. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) how the economic system of the world has been set up, like the federal reserve and central banks and income tax system. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) how people are playing God more and more. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) the things of this world, and I only love God, because he knows what is best for me and all of humanity! I don't even think I know what's best for me anymore, so I always go to him when I am making decisions, just to get his input on that, because I am just a man who can make huge mistakes!

So, I am not a once saved always saved.

[dairygirl4u2c]

very respectable. especially when that's a hot christian doctrine.

i mean... i remember that one passage... "to deceive even the elect, if that were possible". so i might be able to say, if you weren't saved to begin with, then that's who fell away. but, it seems more straightforward, to say, they seemed and probably were saved.... but then they decided not to be any more

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1531661' date='May 17 2008, 04:49 PM']very respectable. especially when that's a hot christian doctrine.

i mean... i remember that one passage... "to deceive even the elect, if that were possible". so i might be able to say, if you weren't saved to begin with, then that's who fell away. but, it seems more straightforward, to say, they seemed and probably were saved.... but then they decided not to be any more[/quote]

I think the whole thing boils down to, many are called, but few are chosen. I think all of the called were at one time believers, but they fall away because they haven't emptied themselves yet. The whole problem is pride.

Why do I need to do this, why do I need to do that.

Now some people might say to me, you don't even go to church, so I shouldn't say anything because I have a beam in my eye. Its the fact I trust so few people saying they are Christians anymore. There will be many professing they are Christ (or of Christ - i.e. Christians) who are really ravening wolves. I know I am not, because I don't call anybody to live as I live, but to at least rely on the spirit to tell them how to live, instead of following the whims of men. This can only come from emptying yourself. You can't trust your own sense and your own thoughts in this world any more, because there is so much B. S. out there! This whole evolution/theistic evolution vrs. 6-day creationism ideas is case in point. We have been bombarded by lies about how God created everything for so long, we have come to accept it as truth. . .

If God is not the author of confusion, why did he say he created the world in 6-days, and not 15 billion years? Why didn't he just outright say that? Why did Moses, who was moved by the holy spirit said there was a day and night in each day of the 6-days of the first chapter of Genesis? Millions of years have lots of days and nights, not one morning and one evening!

So, we have an impass, because there are people who see things much differently than other people, because there are those who have emptied themselves, because I know I am not smart enough to figure it all out, so I rely on the holy spirit to help me understand the very essence of things, and there are others who are - I am so smart, God made me smart, and you're just dumb!

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't think it's wrong that you don't go to church necessarily. i'd think you'd should go sometimes, if you found the right place. i had been thinking about that today. there's something to be said about going, even if you don't feel like it, when you should, but there's also something to say about just going through the motions etc pointlessly.

btw, i disagree with you about evolution, but i do not think it's fully proven enough to say it's like the earth is not the center of the galaxy (as many christians once insisted was the biblical answer) or even super close to that, just proven a whole lot more than most creationists have a shadow of a doubt about. i have a bunch of web info if you care to see it.

[dairygirl4u2c]

anyways, i feel this is being ignored by catholics.


well, granted it'd be cooperating with God's grace. as they said in trent...

QUOTE
Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man


and as cathos always say... justification is a process.

so while i attempted the best i coudl to explain it... these two questions linger somewhat.

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

[dairygirl4u2c]

also in case you've given up on the other evolution threads that i see you were referring to and talking in, now that i have just looked,,, i would recommend this. just take a look, that's all:

[quote]inks for things on traisitional fossils

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html[/url]

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html[/url]

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/[/url]

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/[/url]

[url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html#ch05"]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html#ch05[/url]

[url="http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Exti...ans-62131.shtml"]http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Exti...ans-62131.shtml[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution[/url][/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1530707' date='May 16 2008, 07:10 PM']well, granted it'd be cooperating with God's grace. as they said in trent...

and as cathos always say... justification is a process.[/quote]

Well, Trent didn't come up with it. That's just part of Tradition.

When have Catholics taught that justification is a process? I thought sanctification was the process following justification.

The way I see it, we can call it whatever we want, as long as we're going to Heaven.

Edited May 19, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[dairygirl4u2c]

just talking to cathos talk about it, i hear process a lot, but also...
[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22justification+is+a+process&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a"]http://www.google.com/search?q=%22justific...lient=firefox-a[/url]


[quote]This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. (Council of Trent, 6th Session, ch. Vii)[/quote]
[url="http://ffaideas.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/catholic-doctrine-of-justification/"]http://ffaideas.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/c...-justification/[/url]

Edited May 19, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]We now come to the different states in the process of justification.[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm[/url]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Since our Divine adoption and friendship with God is based on perfect love of God or charity (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13; James 2:17 sqq.), dead faith devoid of charity (fides informis) cannot possess any justifying power. Only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man, and this even before the actual reception of baptism or penance, although not without a desire of the sacrament (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. iv, xiv).[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm[/url]

i am not sure about the wording of this, how it says "before baptism", but, it does say works justify. and i think they've said that you are justified at the beginning of the process.

so again... how can one become more justified when one already is? looking at the encylopedia closer... it must be like i said about dung v. the person, cause that's pretty much what they said:

[quote]In order to exclude the Protestant idea of a merely forensic absolution and exterior declaration of righteousness, special stress is laid on the fact that we are justified by God's justice, not that whereby He himself is just but that whereby He makes us just, in so far as He bestows on us the gift of His grace which renovates the soul interiorly and adheres to it as the soul's own holiness (Trent, l. c., cap. vii: "Unica formalis causa [justificationis] est justitia Dei, non qua ipse justus est, sed qua nos justos facit, qua videlicet ab eo donati, renovamur spiritu mentis nostrae: et non modo reputamur, sed vere justi nominamur et sumus, justitiam in nobis recipientes unusquisque suam"). This inner quality of righteousness and sanctity is universally termed "sanctifying (or habitual) grace", and stands in marked contrast to an exterior, imputed sanctity, as well as to the idea of merely covering and concealing sin. By this, however, we do not assert that the "justitia Dei extra nos" is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formal cause of justification (causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God's own holiness.[/quote]

i guess... a person is just for heaven, or at least purgatory purposes, but until and during they are interiorly made clean in sacification, full justification is not completed.

Edited May 20, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c