Lust, Pornography, And The "pornification" Of Women

[Innocent]

Dear Catherine,

The situation you describe is very sad. But here, our neighbourhood does not have such visible signs of the effects of depravity yet. So it is difficult for people to understand the realities you face each day.

Yours in Christ,
Innocent

[Innocent]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1387794' date='Sep 18 2007, 09:36 PM']I actually draw a comparison in my book to the way modern society currently views mental illness and depression. Because we cannot support God or religion or any sort of absolute good, we are entirely handcuffed in our ability to make people better. All we can do is treat symptoms. After all, if we cannot agree on what makes us happy (ie the purpose of existence) then how could we ever truly help others?

It's pretty much the same issue with pornography and lust. No one wants to declare absolutely that the root behaviors are damaging, only the results. It's kind of like boycotting bullets, yet having no problem with people have guns. [/quote]

These passages remind me of the first chapter in GKC's [i][url="http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/socialcommentary/WhatsWrongWiththeWorld/chap2.html"][color="#ff0000"]What's Wrong With the World?  

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[/url][/i][url="http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/socialcommentary/WhatsWrongWiththeWorld/chap2.html"]
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[thessalonian]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1387827' date='Sep 18 2007, 12:13 PM']Dear Thessalonian,

I think it's great that your'e teaching your chldren about purity so young.

If you ever talk to a friend about this, what would you say?

Yours,
Innocent[/quote]

That would of course depend on who the person was. Whether they were Christian or not. But in general I would point out the dignity of the human person needs to be raised up from where it is at. That men primarily and woman as well use women for their own gain. That love is having the best interests of the other person in mind and therefore lust is contrary to love. When man and woman were created in the garden they were naked and unashamed so nakenedness is not wrong in and of itself. The human body shows the glory of God for we are made for eachother. But we are not made to use eachother but to love eachother in a mutal way, thus our bodies compliment eachother and are a gift to one another. "This one at last is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". Adam and Eve were in the state of orignial innonce in the garden, where lust was not a part of their valueing eachother for the gift that they were to one another. But when sin entered Adam and Eve became lustful and so they covered themselves up in order to protect their bodies from degradation due to lust and objectification. We must stuggle against these tendancies in ourselves and use the cross and the redemptoin of Christ as our source of grace to overcome them (through the sacraments) so that men and woman can truly love one another. In this manner love can truly be realized and the marital act can be a mutual pleasure, rather than a personal gratification that leaves one or the other fealing used.

That would be the gist of what I would try to get accross. JP II's Theology of the Body does not even allow for lust being okay in marriage. The scriptures say "any man who lusts after a woman has committed adultery in his heart". It does not say "any married man" but "any man" and so we can assume that lust in marriage is not good. Man and woman were meant to be together in a mutual and loving monogomous relationship. We see what has a happened to the world when this concept of relation of the sexes has been degraded. STD's, contraception, abortion, children in single parent homes, higher crime, increase in pornography, ie. sexual addiction. Society is very wounded right now and needs to be healed. The truth will set us free.

Blessings

[Innocent]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1387847' date='Sep 18 2007, 11:01 PM']That would of course depend on who the person was. Whether they were Christian or not. But in general I would point out the dignity of the human person needs to be raised up from where it is at. That men primarily and woman as well use women for their own gain. That love is having the best interests of the other person in mind and therefore lust is contrary to love. When man and woman were created in the garden they were naked and unashamed so nakenedness is not wrong in and of itself. The human body shows the glory of God for we are made for eachother. But we are not made to use eachother but to love eachother in a mutal way, thus our bodies compliment eachother and are a gift to one another. "This one at last is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". Adam and Eve were in the state of orignial innonce in the garden, where lust was not a part of their valueing eachother for the gift that they were to one another. But when sin entered Adam and Eve became lustful and so they covered themselves up in order to protect their bodies from degradation due to lust and objectification. We must stuggle against these tendancies in ourselves and use the cross and the redemptoin of Christ as our source of grace to overcome them (through the sacraments) so that men and woman can truly love one another. In this manner love can truly be realized and the marital act can be a mutual pleasure, rather than a personal gratification that leaves one or the other fealing used.

That would be the gist of what I would try to get accross. JP II's Theology of the Body does not even allow for lust being okay in marriage. The scriptures say "any man who lusts after a woman has committed adultery in his heart". It does not say "any married man" but "any man" and so we can assume that lust in marriage is not good. Man and woman were meant to be together in a mutual and loving monogomous relationship. We see what has a happened to the world when this concept of relation of the sexes has been degraded. STD's, contraception, abortion, children in single parent homes, higher crime, increase in pornography, ie. sexual addiction. Society is very wounded right now and needs to be healed. The truth will set us free.

Blessings[/quote]

Dear Thessalonian,

Your approach might work with a Catholic (or even a non-Catholic Christian) but my non-Christian friends would simply say, "Why should I accept the Judeo-Christian worldview of morality as a starting point?"

It might be helpful in such cases, to be able to show, starting from a purely secular point, why the TOTB is correct, similar to the way in which CS Lewis justified Xianity in his [i]Mere Christianity, [/i]in many places[i] [/i]using inductive reasoning. Or one could try the approach
he used in his [i]The Abolition of Man[/i], and try to show the confluence of teac
ings on sexual and mo
al ethics that are similar in most relig
ons and even in the works of famous personalities not explicitly religious - A Tao of Sexual Morality, so to speak.

I'm trying to work on this approach.

What do you think of this idea?

Yours in Christ,
Innocent

Edited September 18, 2007 by Innocent

[thessalonian]

As I said, my approach is a general one and some of it I would not be as direct about on a person as you describe. But these things are natural to man, so while you might not use Christian terms and the name of Jesus or the Bible you can appeal to man's sense that woman and man are complimentary to one another. You can appeal to the aethesists or non-christians sense of right and wrong that the person who they are lusting after for their personal pleasure is as much entitled to respect and being valued as a human being as he or she (your friend) wants to be valued as a human being. Lust and pornography do not exhibit these values. They are about self gratification. I would hope that your freind would not want to be the subject of such a magazine or picture that was robbed of its humanity and merely used for it's external characterists, with no concern for the internal person. Almost every culture holds to the golden rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" so this kind of an appeal should be effective with non-christians.
So while I might not go in to the garden story, the complimentarity of man and woman as a natural order most certainly can appeal to all. The natural tendancy of man and woman, whether religous or not, to form relationships that go beyond sex and fullfill the need for companionship and love demonstrate that the use of the human body as a sexual object alone hinders the value of the other aspects of the relationship and the need for love. If one controls lustful passions they can have fullfillment in other areas of the relationship that they might not otherwise if sex is the end of the game. Having sex as the end usually involves manipulation. Something that is damaging to a companion relationship that is the natural desire of every man and woman that I have ever known.

Is that any better?

Edited September 18, 2007 by thessalonian

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1387825' date='Sep 18 2007, 10:10 AM']Papa,

What is the APA? I googled for it and got "American Psychological Association". Is that right?[/quote]

You are correct. They have linked damaging behavior in women - sleeping around just for the sake of it, depression, etc. - to the pervasiveness of pornography and a highly-sexualized view of women in our culture.

Of course, the sad truth about the APA is that they are very much a pawn of left-wing politics these days so it's always surprising to hear them say [i]anything[/i] about pretty much anything controversial.

[Innocent]

Dear Thessalonian,

Yes, what you have said is very helpful. Thanks.

Yours in Christ,
Innocent

[Innocent]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1387932' date='Sep 19 2007, 01:03 AM']You are correct. They have linked damaging behavior in women - sleeping around just for the sake of it, depression, etc. - to the pervasiveness of pornography and a highly-sexualized view of women in our culture.

Of course, the sad truth about the APA is that they are very much a pawn of left-wing politics these days so it's always surprising to hear them say [i]anything[/i] about pretty much anything controversial. [/quote]

Yes, I see your point. That a left-leaning orgainsation agrees about the effects of pornography could be used as a starting point for a discussion. Do you have any of their oline reports bookmarked? If so, could you please provide the links? Thank you.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Innocent

[Innocent]

I got the following two pages with a quick Google search:

[b][url="http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/901289765.html"]Depression and Pornography[/url][/b]

[b][url="http://overcome.byu.edu/Articles/Cline.asp"]The Pornography Trap[/url][/b]

They are written by sources that are not explicitly Catholic and could be good starting points.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Innocent

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1387566' date='Sep 18 2007, 04:47 AM']Has any of you tried to convince a friend (especially a non-religious friend) that pornography and lust are "not OK" and that they are actually harmful?

Has any of you had success doing this?[/quote]

I was trying to do this today, oddly enough. Last night I discovered a porn DVD in the house of a really close male relative whom I look up to a lot. This relative is converting to Catholicism from high-church Anglicanism and I was painfully shocked to accidentally come across this DVD in his house. The cover was so graphic that I hastily turned it over so I wouldn't have to look at it...and there was an even more disgusting picture on the back. I felt sick. I confronted him over it and received a thousand apologies and a lot of garbled excuses for having it in the house. It was horrible.

I rang up a good friend to talk things through, as I felt like crying by this point. My friend was shocked and sympathetic, but deep into the conversation remarked that he didn't have a problem with porn 'in the abstract'. He added that he would be very upset if he found that somebody in his family used it, though.

I didn't understand him. Porn isn't just abstract; it's always particular and specific for some poor person, no matter whether it's the consumers of porn or the porn 'stars' themselves (many of whom were abused as children). This industry isn't ethical. It's heavily influenced by abuse, and porn itself is effectively stylised rape - the invasion of a person's privacy and the trivialising of their bodies. Non-religious people's attitudes to porn are often very jumbled and confused. How can it be right for one person and wrong for another?

[Innocent]

I am sorry to hear of this painful incident. This only shows how widespread this epidemic is. Pornography and lust are destroying a good many Christians, and we must really do something about it.

It is a good sign that your relative apologised and did not try to defend his possession of the DVD. What he did was wrong, but have more pity than anger for him. I hope he is not yet addicted to it and that it is an isolated incident.

If your relative is willing to let you help him, you could offer to be his "accountability partner" i.e., to check up on him regularly to prevent him from accessing porn.

[thessalonian]

CatholicAnonymous,

I personally don't know how a non-catholic could get over the addiction of pornography. I will only say that I have more experience that I would like in this area. If he is becoming Catholic he will have access to the graces that can help him overcome his sin. It would be hard for someone who has not been through such an addiction to understand the great struggle involved. Have compassion for him as long as he is repentent. Jesus did not call the woman caught in adultery a tramp. He desires mercy rather than justice. He came to redeem us and so this friend is an opportunity to show the power of God as is our porn addicted culture. I was reading JPII's Theology of The Body last night. In it he says the problem with mankind is that they do not put the body at a high enough value. They do not understand what being made in the image and likeness of God means. That the body is SACRED! Therefore as Chrisopher West says we are willing to go to the dumpster (porn) for what we need. Christ through the cross can redeem mankind and restore them to that image and likeness of God. This is possible for someone like your friend who is willing to repent. Pray of him. He has a difficult road ahead of him but the truth will set him free.

Again, go to www.christopherwest.com for help for him. I highly recommend the intro to Theology of the Body for him.

[Innocent]

I came across these two articles today:

[url="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=502"]A New Sexual Revolution: The Case for Modesty[/url]

[url="http://www.fortifyingthefamily.com/Modesty_Revisited.html"]A Return to Modesty[/url]