Very Good Apologetic Webpage

[mark4IHM]

"It just kills me... they argue that the Mass should be in Latin as it was for hundreds of years..."

In the document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, the Second Vatican Council declared:

"The use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites."

So it appears "they" (traditionalists?) were not the only ones arguing the Mass should be in Latin. Which raises an interesting question: are those going to vernacular Masses disobeying Vatican II?

[mark4IHM]

I'd be willing to place money on the fact that Church numbers, etc. declined not because of VII, rather because of the things going on outside of the Catholic Church. Like Roe v. Wade and the sexual revolution to name just two. VII was a great thing, and it's true fruits, I believe, have yet to be seen.

Dear Jake,

I agree with you that the true fruits of the Council have yet to be seen (though we may differ on the conclusions we draw from this). I also agree that the Church has been adversely affected by the general godlessness and immorality around her, a condition that is all the more awful because it is occurring in a de-Christianized world.

But I don't think that's the whole story, for the decline of religious life within the Church is too dramatic for the Church not to bear some of the responsibility. I say this in all charity, speaking objectively. And the statistical decline of religious life within the Church is simply horrendous. For instance, the number of priests has declined from 58,000 in 1965 to 45,000 today. Fifteen percent of American parishes are priestless, compared with 1 percent in 1965. Annual ordinations of priests have fallen from 1,575 in 1965 to 450 in 2002. Seminary enrollment has dropped 90 percent since 1965. Two thirds of the seminaries that were open in 1965 are now closed. In several European countries the percentage of Catholics attending Mass is in the single digits.

Popes Paul VI and John Paul II (and Cardinal Ratzinger) have attributed the decline to a "crisis in the faith" within the Church itself, and it is difficult to disagree. Prior to the Council the Church in America was growing. After the Council it abruptly began shrinking; this began before Roe v. Wade.

My purpose in citing some of these statistics(there are many more) is constructive. It seems the only way to begin to arrest the decline is to find out exactly what is causing it. The popes themselves seem to be looking within the Church for solutions, and in this I heartily support them.

[Donna]

Jake, I was used to the New Rite of Mass (so to speak) before I became Catholic. This is because as a Lutheran, I had attended the "traditional" Lutheran worship service (there are often children's, contemporary and traditional services each Sunday).

There are few differences between the Lutheran worship service and the New Mass.

But, it was at a series of Latin Masses (while Lutheran) that I was given to understand and fall in love with the Real Presence (among other graces). It's odd: At roughly 30 years old, "coming home" to something I'd never known.

I encourge you to maybe look at a Missal with the old rite in it; therein you will see, basically, the same Mass that formed many saints.

* * * * * *

Lex orandi lex credendi: the law of prayer is the law of belief. Our faith is formed and sustained in no small way through the liturgy itself. Every Catholic rightly concerned about abuses in the New Mass I doubt are based on old habits dying hard, or a rigid legalism.

Pope Pius XII said something to the effect that it would not be right to return to the Apostolic Mass. We forget that this Latin Mass's delopment had occured in an organic way, over centuries. Especially the Canon was safeguarded for doctrinal reasons.

For anyone interested "The Reform of the Roman Rite" by Msgr. Klaus Gamber is informative.

P.S. To view the Lutheran liturgy:

a) "elca" Google search (click on first entry).

B) At ELCA home page under "search", type in "liturgy".

c) Click on Page 2, #17, ("FAQ: Biblical Roots of the Liturgy").

[Katholikos]

Nevermind I just found out the site is TRaditional and opposes the Vatican II church.

Is this the web site of the person who recently signed on as katoliko at phatmass?

With such similar names (both mean Catholic), I've been concerned that someone might get us confused, so I've started signing my posts --

JMJ Jay (Likos)

Katholikos

[Anna]

Good idea, Likos!

When I first saw the name "katolico" I thought, "uh, oh! This is gonna get confusing!"

Katolico, maybe dUSt would let you re-register with a different sn, for us simple folk?

Pax Christi. <><