Annullments

[friendofJPII]

Take the poll and please leave comments below.

Edited October 1, 2007 by friendofJPII

[photosynthesis]

I question the validity of a lot of Catholic marriages that happen today. It has nothing to do with the current rite of Matrimony... or the reforms of Vatican II, but many people going into marriage these days intending to use contraception. I only know one person whose marriage was annulled and that was because her former husband never really wanted children. If you don't want children, you don't really want to be married.

Edited October 1, 2007 by photosynthesis

[CatherineM]

I did some work for the Defender of the Bond. That's basically the prosecutor in the marriage tribunal. I did some of the legwork/back ground for the priest who served as Defender. I got to interview people like the person's ex and the ex-inlaws. Some of the cases were really sad. I never had to investigate cases that were automatic like ones where a Catholic had not been married in church. These were cases where they were claiming that they had been too immature to marry or that their ex had defrauded them in some way. I never had a case where the party seeking annulment said that they had been the one to defraud their ex. This isn't like a criminal case where people had to talk to you. I had doors slammed in my face, got cursed at and hung up on. One former mother in law was screaming at me that I was trying to make her grandchildren illegitimate (that's not what happens). I was left thinking that people get married too young, too easily, and give up too quickly.

At the beginning I didn't think any marriages should be granted annulments. At the end though, I understood how people could get married without really understanding what that meant. If they didn't fully understand, then it wasn't a proper bond. I actually married a man who had been granted a divorce. His first wife had promised to convert, and after they married she changed her mind, and started taking birth control. Even after all that, he didn't want to get divorced. He actually hid on a friend's couch to avoid the guy trying to serve him with divorce papers. He finally realized that trying to force her to stay married to him wasn't going to work. It took him a long time to trust again, and he wasn't about to date someone who wasn't Catholic again. We went through a bunch of hoops to make sure before marrying.

I learned alot about marriage working at the tribunal. I learned that the sacrament may be perfect, but the humans involved aren't. It's important to not be judgmental, and to take people where they are, not where we'd like them to be.

[friendofJPII]

It seems that everyone who applies for an annullment get one; almost to the point where ppl think it's a "sure thing." I know of no one who was denied. I understand that there are some clear-cut cases, but if the Church makes it too easy to remarry, married couples won't try to work it out, imo.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1395840' date='Sep 30 2007, 10:50 PM']I question the validity of a lot of Catholic marriages that happen today. It has nothing to do with the current rite of Matrimony... or the reforms of Vatican II, but many people going into marriage these days intending to use contraception. I only know one person whose marriage was annulled and that was because her former husband never really wanted children. If you don't want children, you don't really want to be married.[/quote]

So if a couple plans to contracept, but still want kids their marriage is invalid? Then I would venture to say that most Catholic marriages celebrated today are invalid, since most generation X and Yers either aren't even aware that is againt Church teaching. Priests are silent on the topic.

Edited October 1, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Falcon]

I have applied and recieved one in a matter of 7 months. My case, I felt, was cute and dry. I has since been remarried in the church. The mother of my child, not allowed to call her my ex-wife for we were NEVER married, now must meet and receive counciling from the church Vicar prior to er being allowed to remarry. Do I believe in the process. Absolutely.

[thessalonian]

My first marriage was anulled. My first wife did not want children. I do not believe that the grave sin of contracepting or intending to use it invalidates a marriage as long as the couple intends to have children. I have never heard of that as a valid reason for an anullment and I have studied them quite throughly. I know some people who do pre-marital instruction at a good parish.. It sounds like 2/3 of the people going through the training don't really have a clue about what marriage is about. Nor do they fully understand the depth of the committment. I have my doudts that most marriages in this contry are valid contracts simpy because of the lack of committment that society socializes people with. Most people do not truly understand what it is to be a gift to one another but rather are looking at marriage from the standpoint of what can I get from it.

Blessings

[XIX]

I think very few marriages are actually valid to begin with, so it doesn't surprise me that the Church hand out annulments like they're name tags.


Wow. That's harsh. But that's what I think.

[adt6247]

[quote name='XIX' post='1396075' date='Oct 1 2007, 04:54 PM']I think very few marriages are actually valid to begin with, so it doesn't surprise me that the Church hand out annulments like they're name tags.
Wow. That's harsh. But that's what I think.[/quote]
I think it's bad, but it's hard for us to judge. Remember, 75% of annulments that have been granted in the US, and then contested by the other party to the Vatican, are overturned.

[friendofJPII]

if you recieved an anullment, how long did it take, if you don't mind my asking...

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1396097' date='Oct 1 2007, 03:40 PM']if you recieved an anullment, how long did it take, if you don't mind my asking...[/quote]

four months, but mine was cut and dry: a baptized Catholic (myself) and a non-Catholic.

i do have a friend who was not granted an annulment: she had kids, so the Tribunal wanted to do interviews. No way that's ever going to happen.

Personally, i thank God for my annulment - knowing that the Church which has the authority to bind and loose has decreed i was never married brings a lot of peace/freedom/healing.

[CatholicCid]

The last poll question should have a "I do not know anyone who has applied for an annulment" as a simple "no" or "yes" inflates the results.

[friendofJPII]

"Jesus, have mercy on me, a whiner!"

I love it, did you make that up or steal it from a conference?

Edited October 1, 2007 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

What's the average time? a year? I must confess that I am in love with a man who is divorced without an annullment, actually he is not officially divorced yet, they just filed. This is so difficult, I feel like I am to attached to break it off, yet I do not feel peace in my heart or in prayer. I've been to confession 4 times and only one priest had enough guts to tell me the truth. One priest said the relationship was fine, that I was not sinning, and to tell him all the good things I've done to help humanity instead. The rest said to "search my heart!" I didn't mean for this to happen, I've been a rather orthodox, Catholic young adult for some time now after my conversion, and now I'm in a real pickle. I love this man, he loves me. But I also know that I'm aiding and abieting someone in the act of adultrey. (we are not having sex but still....)

Phatmassers, help! I need some encouragement to do what I know I need to do.

Edited October 1, 2007 by friendofJPII

[CatherineM]

JP - Of all the annulment cases I was involved in, the simple paperwork ones where a Catholic wasn't married in the church, or they married someone who was divorced without an annulment (usually for a former protestant), they were finished in 6 months or less. Where interviews were required, it could take a lot longer depending on how cooperative the other parties are. If you do the paperwork quickly, track down all the documents yourself and submit them timely, you can trim a bunch of time off the process. I have seen annulments denied, but that only happened in cases where both parties were Catholic, went through all the pre-marriage classes and counseling, and still divorced. The other cases were protestants or former protestants. They aren't required to be married by a priest, so that kind of eliminates a whole line of reasons.

I can't tell you what is in your heart, but I will tell you what a priest I really respected told me. My parents weren't married until they were in their 60's. They were together for over 30 years, had a bunch of kids and grandkids, but never married because my father had been divorced. It was a war time thing, back in the day when you had to agree to convert to marry in the church. His first wife signed all the papers, but once the war was over she decided she didn't want to be a Catholic or be married to one. His annulment would have been a rubber stamp, but he was too stubborn to do it. I was worried about his soul. He died when I was still in college. My pastor told me that it isn't the divorce or the remarriage that gets you in trouble, it's the sex. My parents hadn't been intimate since his heart attack when I was 10 (thank you very much mom for sharing that), so I could rest that he died in a state of grace. He told me that he had couples before that couldn't get annulments. He said that the church tries to handle those people with compassion at the parish level. In some cases they literally go to confession on Saturday and then to mass on Sunday for the rest of their married life. If you PM me with the particulars of his first marriage, I can better tell you how long and how likely his annulment might be, if I handled a case similar.

[friendofJPII]

"In some cases they literally go to confession on Saturday and then to mass on Sunday for the rest of their married life. "

Yes, but then wouldn't the sacrament of penance be invalid? In order to receive absolution you must have firm purpose of ammendment....if you know you are going to commit and confess the same sin next Sat, what's the point? And I was under the assumption that we are not supposed to even date until the annullment is granted. Is that true? I've heard differing opinions..I suppose it is different story if the couple is already in a psuedo-type marriage with children (we would be breaking up a family here) rather than a couple that just wants to start dating.

I will PM you with the particulars based on what he told me, which is of course-one sided but could be helpful. thanks.

Edited October 2, 2007 by friendofJPII

[CatherineM]

That was my first thought too that the confession wouldn't be valid, but the priest basically told me that the church is a hospital for sinners, not a waiting room for saints, and sometimes priests kind of give people who made mistakes when they were young a break and a clean start. Priests have a lot of leeway in the confessional. As for dating, it kind of depends on what you consider dating. If you are just providing companionship to each other at this point, I don't think it is adultery, but that is something that you should take up with your priest. If he says it's okay, then it is okay.

[XIX]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1396190' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:32 PM']"Jesus, have mercy on me, a whiner!"

I love it, did you make that up or steal it from a conference?[/quote]
It just came to my head during Adoration. It's kinda true, especially with regards to internal complaining.

[prose]

[quote name='XIX' post='1396075' date='Oct 1 2007, 02:54 PM']I think very few marriages are actually valid to begin with, so it doesn't surprise me that the Church hand out annulments like they're name tags.
Wow. That's harsh. But that's what I think.[/quote]

Me too.

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1396192' date='Oct 1 2007, 06:39 PM']What's the average time? a year? I must confess that I am in love with a man who is divorced without an annullment, actually he is not officially divorced yet, they just filed. This is so difficult, I feel like I am to attached to break it off, yet I do not feel peace in my heart or in prayer. I've been to confession 4 times and only one priest had enough guts to tell me the truth. One priest said the relationship was fine, that I was not sinning, and to tell him all the good things I've done to help humanity instead. The rest said to "search my heart!" I didn't mean for this to happen, I've been a rather orthodox, Catholic young adult for some time now after my conversion, and now I'm in a real pickle. I love this man, he loves me. But I also know that I'm aiding and abieting someone in the act of adultrey. (we are not having sex but still....)

Phatmassers, help! I need some encouragement to do what I know I need to do.[/quote]

You sound like a friend of mine. I pray for her all the time. Hopefully God has a positive plan for you and your partner.

Encourage him to be prepared for the annulment. To have his papers and information together. Pray with him. Remain chaste in your relationship.

Got has called us to love each other, and by that it means doing constantly whatever is best for each other. Remember that. If doing what is best for your partners sould is to pray for and with him, and to help him through this, than do it. If it is to back off, do that. Keep what is best for him in your heart, and expect the same from him. If he isn't doing what is best for you, then it isn't love.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1396192' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:39 PM']I need some encouragement to do what I know I need to do.[/quote]
Take some time away from your relationship with this man and pray. In the eyes of the Church, he is a married man, joined to his wife until death. No matter how ridiculous the circumstances of their marriage seem to him (or you), an annulment is not guaranteed. A married person must take special care to guard his or her heart and remain faithful even when their spouse is unfaithful. Unless this man is granted an annulment by the Church, he is called to live out his married vocation.

Try to see him the way the Church sees him. Being in love changes how you see a person, and that is a good thing. However, our emotions must always be guided by right reason, and we must be careful not to let our emotions take us places where our minds would dare not go.