Christianity And Islam

[SaintOlaf]

Hey All,

I recently went to see the movie "The Kingdom" with a friend of mine. The movie was pretty decent, it had some good action sequences and was well made, though I was a bit concerned with the over-all message of the film. This message was fairly clear, I think, to everyone and consisted simply of both sides telling their loved ones that "We're going to kill them all". Obviously the "American" response from the film does not cut it, killing them all would simply be genocide and cannot be tolerated.

My question then is how should we as Christians interact with Muslims? How can we attempt to co-exist with this radically different culture and religion in peace and harmony? Should we even attempt to live in peace with them, or am I just making a broad assumption based on certain militant groups and sects of that culture?

Here is some food for thought on the issue, from the CCC:
[indent]841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/indent]

I appreciate your thoughts and encourage dialog on this, as it's something that I personally have struggles with and look forward to reading your posts.

God Bless!
~Paul

[adt6247]

Our relationship with Islam should be not much different than that with other non-Christians and heretics: we must make every attempt to convert them, for the sake of their souls, and our own. If they propagate teachings that are contrary to Christ's own church, then they lead souls toward hell. We are responsible for evangelizing to our neighbor, through both word and deed. If it comes to it, we must fight and die to defend our church, as was done justly in the crusades, as we attempted to take back the lands that the bloodthirsty Mohammedan hordes conquered from both the eastern and western churches.

That being said, I think that though militant Islam is a threat, it isn't nearly as great a threat today as relativism. The heresy of modernism is the 800lb. gorilla in the room that most conservative Christians tend to ignore.

[beatty07]

I really wondered at what seemed to be implied moral equivalence in that last scene. I took Fox's characters' comment as referring to "all of them responsible for killing our friend and actively trying to kill more of us." And the terrorists comment as pretty clearly meaning "all the western infidels." As though the intention to kill those who are trying to kill you is the same as the intention to kill men, women and children indiscriminately to make a point or whatever. Maybe they're just giving the audience credit to realize that, or maybe they really think it's the same?

The difficulty is that we can't really define Islam. I mean, there's such a thing as the "real" Christianity, and most of us on phatmass agree that it's easily defined at least in fundamentals. That's because it's true and guided by the Holy Spirit. Islam, well, isn't. So who gets to say what the "real" Islam is? The "religion of peace" people or the "relentless war on all infidels" people?

I wonder what exactly it means to be included in God's plan of salvation... that could be interpreted pretty widely. Need it be more than what follows from "God wills that all be saved?"

Yeah, we've got to try to live in peace with them. We can never give up on that. But we also can't ignore that some will continue trying to kill as many of us as possible, even in the face of seeming futility, believing that God is on their side and will eventually ensure their victory and the establishment of global sharia.

Edited October 5, 2007 by beatty07

[mortify]

Hi Paul,

I'd like to see the movie, seems pretty good from the previews, but I think getting along with Muslims begins with being good Christians ourselves and then finding similarities between us. Muslims also seek our conversion, so we should keep that in mind, but I think there is nothing more powerful than expressing the Love of Christ.

[CatherineM]

I live in a neighborhood with a lot of Muslims, mostly Somalian immigrants. They are hard working, devoted to their children, not interested in the materialism of fashion or fancy cars. I ride everywhere on the bus with them, shop in their ethnic grocery store (the best goat ever), and eat in their restaurants. Frankly, I feel like I have more in common with them, values wise, than a lot of Christians I meet. We have a lot of common ground. We need to focus on those areas. I agree modernism is a threat, but I feel that fundamentalism of any sect or creed, is a bigger one.

[beatty07]

That would certainly provide a nice counterpoint to the whole "taking religion seriously leads to bloodbath" schtick we get on TV.

[Catholic Fanatic]

muslims who deny what they know to be true, namely Jesus Christ, will burn in hell.

[mortify]

I just spoke with a Catholic lady that worked for thirteen years as a nurse in Saudi Arabia, and I couldn't believe how repressive that society is. There are no masses, no priests, no missionaries, you can't bring a bible or rosary with you, nor can you preach, any of these can send you to jail.

[SaintOlaf]

[quote name='mortify' post='1398984' date='Oct 7 2007, 05:45 PM']I just spoke with a Catholic lady that worked for thirteen years as a nurse in Saudi Arabia, and I couldn't believe how repressive that society is. There are no masses, no priests, no missionaries, you can't bring a bible or rosary with you, nor can you preach, any of these can send you to jail.[/quote]

Bringing the gospel to Muslims can be a very life threatening task, though I still think it needs to be done. The most important thing I think (from my recent reading) is that LOVE is really one of the only things that can win Mulsims over to Christ. To show them friendship, when you are their sworn enemy is such an amazing testimony. My parent's church (fundamentalist baptists) supported a missionary to Pakistan for a number of years. He and his wife were recently martyred for their missionary work in Islamabad. I pray that God will raise up another such as this man and his wife, willing to die to bring the good news to the Muslim countries.

[url="http://thin-edge.org/2007/09/06/tragic-murder-of-arif-and-kathy-khan-in-pakistan/"]http://thin-edge.org/2007/09/06/tragic-mur...an-in-pakistan/[/url]

[mortify]

Thanks for your input Olaf, btw, realized you're becoming Catholic, welcome Home!

[Didacus]

Peace sells, but who's buying?

[bmb144]

Um....sorry but I disagree just a little. If your living your life and expressing your beliefs by how your life is lived, it does and will show and isn't that the best place to start?

Convert or burn doesn't work

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='mortify' post='1398984' date='Oct 7 2007, 10:45 PM']I just spoke with a Catholic lady that worked for thirteen years as a nurse in Saudi Arabia, and I couldn't believe how repressive that society is. There are no masses, no priests, no missionaries, you can't bring a bible or rosary with you, nor can you preach, any of these can send you to jail.[/quote]

No missionaries, no priests, no masses (except at the British Embassy, if somebody dies. I don't know about the other embassies). Rosaries and Bibles are fine, providing you aren't using them for missionary purposes. The law defines them as 'items for personal worship', which is legitimate.

[quote]muslims who deny what they know to be true, namely Jesus Christ, will burn in hell.[/quote]

I've yet to meet a Muslim who says, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, true God and true man, and saviour of the world...but I reject Him anyway." I'm not so sure how speculation on salvation and judgement is relevant to the topic at hand, either.

[quote]I live in a neighborhood with a lot of Muslims, mostly Somalian immigrants. They are hard working, devoted to their children, not interested in the materialism of fashion or fancy cars. I ride everywhere on the bus with them, shop in their ethnic grocery store (the best goat ever), and eat in their restaurants. Frankly, I feel like I have more in common with them, values wise, than a lot of Christians I meet.[/quote]

I know what you mean. Our Catholic chaplaincy has been trying to stop the university students' union from distributing free condoms in various college libraries for years. The only other group that seems remotely concerned that contraception is being handed out in the study centres like scrap paper and spare ballpoint pens is the Islamic Society.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Starets]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' post='1398911' date='Oct 7 2007, 04:05 PM']muslims who deny what they know to be true, namely Jesus Christ, will burn in hell.[/quote]
I've found by experience that threats of eternal Hellfire lose their effectiveness after a while. I remember once in my teens where I was told I was going to Hell because I was Catholic and on the same day told I was going to Hell because I wasn't Catholic. It did not scare me into or out of anything. It simply made me more disillusioned.

[SaintOlaf]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1399565' date='Oct 8 2007, 09:48 PM']I've found by experience that threats of eternal Hellfire lose their effectiveness after a while. I remember once in my teens where I was told I was going to Hell because I was Catholic and on the same day told I was going to Hell because I wasn't Catholic. It did not scare me into or out of anything. It simply made me more disillusioned.[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head here, threats of hellfire really do nothing to help the situation. Either the person gets offended by your condemnation or they just become indifferent to the possibility of hell (which can lead to much more serious, atheistic views).

We are told to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, the overall message of the Gospel is Love. God loved us so he gave us a way to escape that eternal damnation. I think that's where the focus needs to be when witnessing to these groups, even if it seems to not get us anywhere, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='SaintOlaf' post='1399569' date='Oct 9 2007, 02:52 AM']I think you hit the nail on the head here, threats of hellfire really do nothing to help the situation. Either the person gets offended by your condemnation or they just become indifferent to the possibility of hell (which can lead to much more serious, atheistic views).

We are told to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, the overall message of the Gospel is Love. God loved us so he gave us a way to escape that eternal damnation. I think that's where the focus needs to be when witnessing to these groups, even if it seems to not get us anywhere, the Lord works in mysterious ways.[/quote]

I think people lose their fear of Hell because they can't see a clear connection between Hell and lack of love. Only somebody who already knows God can have a true fear of Hell, because Hell involves the loss of God. How can you fear the loss of a love that you have never acknowledged? Is it possible?

Paradoxically, if you are firm in your knowledge of that love it won't be mention of Hell that urges you back when you stray. It will be the awareness of divine forgiveness. It's never fear of damnation that takes me to Confession. It's, "I have hurt myself and my Church and I need my Abba to make us better."

I am afraid of Hell only because I know that I have the twisted power to take myself there. Fear of Hell comes with heightened self-awareness - as does love of God, for which our selves were made. This should be our guiding principle no matter who we are interacting with. I understood this for the first time when I realised that I have some unfortunate prejudices against homeless people. I was shocked to discover that the beggar in the Cambridge marketplace can speak six languages fluently and is a specialist in Etruscan history. I had always pigeon-holed the homeless as being, well, not very bright, and had adjusted my kindness and my conversation accordingly.

Mother Teresa was right when she said, "If you judge people you have no time to love them." We need to be able to go to people without judging them. Otherwise we become hateful at worst and condescending at best. "You're a Muslim, a member of a religion that I consider to be intrinsically violent and evil (no, don't speak, I know your religion better than you do) and yet I'm actually having a conversation with you (I said don't speak!) out of my great charity. Now you can look away from your false religion and know what real love is, all thanks to me!" Evangelism and interfaith dialogue can very easily become exercises in self-glorification if we're not careful.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[beatty07]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1399800' date='Oct 9 2007, 07:30 AM']I think people lose their fear of Hell because they can't see a clear connection between Hell and lack of love. Only somebody who already knows God can have a true fear of Hell, because Hell involves the loss of God. How can you fear the loss of a love that you have never acknowledged? Is it possible?

Paradoxically, if you are firm in your knowledge of that love it won't be mention of Hell that urges you back when you stray. It will be the awareness of divine forgiveness. It's never fear of damnation that takes me to Confession. It's, "I have hurt myself and my Church and I need my Abba to make us better."

I am afraid of Hell only because I know that I have the twisted power to take myself there. Fear of Hell comes with heightened self-awareness - as does love of God, for which our selves were made. This should be our guiding principle no matter who we are interacting with. I understood this for the first time when I realised that I have some unfortunate prejudices against homeless people. I was shocked to discover that the beggar in the Cambridge marketplace can speak six languages fluently and is a specialist in Etruscan history. I had always pigeon-holed the homeless as being, well, not very bright, and had adjusted my kindness and my conversation accordingly.

Mother Teresa was right when she said, "If you judge people you have no time to love them." We need to be able to go to people without judging them. Otherwise we become hateful at worst and condescending at best. "You're a Muslim, a member of a religion that I consider to be intrinsically violent and evil (no, don't speak, I know your religion better than you do) and yet I'm actually having a conversation with you (I said don't speak!) out of my great charity. Now you can look away from your false religion and know what real love is, all thanks to me!" Evangelism and interfaith dialogue can very easily become exercises in self-glorification if we're not careful.[/quote]


nominated for post of the year. Do we have post of the year?

[Apotheoun]

Lack of judgment is no virtue, and religious indifferentism is a heresy condemned long ago by the Church.

That said, making proper judgments about the Islamic religion (i.e., in connection with the falsity of its teachings) is a part of evangelization and interreligious dialogue. For example, one does not have to be an adherent of the religion of Muhammad in order to know that its teachings on various theological issues are false and heretical, e.g., its doctrine of absolute predestination to either heaven or hell, its doctrine that Allah positively causes and creates all human actions (both good and evil), its denial of the divinity of Christ and the doctrine of the incarnation, and its rejection of the revealed dogma of the Trinity. Moreover, any religious discussion that ignores the theological differences between Christianity and Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is ultimately pointless, because dialogue of that kind is not founded upon the truth about God that is revealed only in the person of Jesus Christ, the sole savior of mankind.

[adt6247]

[quote name='In His Light' post='1399262' date='Oct 8 2007, 06:53 AM']Convert or burn doesn't work [/quote]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1399565' date='Oct 8 2007, 09:48 PM']I've found by experience that threats of eternal Hellfire lose their effectiveness after a while. I remember once in my teens where I was told I was going to Hell because I was Catholic and on the same day told I was going to Hell because I wasn't Catholic. It did not scare me into or out of anything. It simply made me more disillusioned.[/quote]
It doesn't matter what works -- what matters what is true. There is no salvation outside the church, regardless of what other people believe. Our salvation is purchased through the sacrifice of Christ. If we do not choose to cooperate with this most precious gift, we will perish in the eternal fire.

If that's not the avenue that you use to preach, then fine. I personally try and use example and reason. To anyone who already believes in a benevolent creator, it isn't hard to convince that we are a wicked, fallen race deserving of hell...

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'd phrase it as we are not deserving of God's grace, ie hell.
only cause some would say we deserve fire and rimestone. but that's not what exactly the case. that might be a result of none of God's grace but. there would be much wrongs that would occur without God's grace.