Simple Question

[thessalonian]

Yes Jesus is my savior. I am on easy street right now though. I have food and clothes and warmth. I have to believe it if I become cold and homeless or stand before a Moslem firing squad. He will be my savior then as well and will give me sufficeint grace if he puts me through such a trial to endure it. But I must continue to recieve his grace in order to endure and to continue saying Jesus is my savior. So your conclusions about our saying that phrase are wrong. Jesus is my savior. But he will not force me to be saved.

[GodChild]

God has given all of his love - he expects nothing less in return ... If you "believe" your saved and have a loud mouth - quick to proclaim your "holier than thou" saved-ness but you don't obey the command of God which is perfect Love. Your loud mouth, your Bible quoting and your "belief" will NOT save you. Love MUST be repaid with love - as God loves you - you must love Him & in this you are saved because love to such a degree, to such perfection is possible only with God's help

Is God my Saviour? Yes - only God is my savior but I am not "saved" by believing in Him, I am saved by loving Him

Cause believe me - it is easier to "believe" with a intellectual acknowledgment - with a "what do I get out of this" belief that many protestants adopt. Oh I'll believe in Jesus cause I get my bum out of hell and hey, its a 'free' gift - with no effort on my part

As opposed to true "belief" in God - which isn't mere belief but true faith. And faith that saves - true faith - only exists if it is a living faith - borne, sustained, beginning, ending, depending on the "grace" of God - His Merciful Love - and thankfully received and lived out in my life through little insignificant "works" which I do to show God I am thankful for His mercy and that I love Him. I am not saved by works - God's mercy alone saves me - but I try to do good "works", love manifested in action, to obey God and please Him. There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".

Love is repaid with Love alone - Much love has been given, much is expected in return

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401204' date='Oct 12 2007, 04:56 PM']There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".[/quote]

That reading came up at Mass last week. "We are but unworthy servants; we have done only that which was our duty."

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401204' date='Oct 12 2007, 11:56 AM']God has given all of his love - he expects nothing less in return ... If you "believe" your saved and have a loud mouth - quick to proclaim your "holier than thou" saved-ness but you don't obey the command of God which is perfect Love. Your loud mouth, your Bible quoting and your "belief" will NOT save you. Love MUST be repaid with love - as God loves you - you must love Him & in this you are saved because love to such a degree, to such perfection is possible only with God's help

Is God my Saviour? Yes - only God is my savior but I am not "saved" by believing in Him, I am saved by loving Him

Cause believe me - it is easier to "believe" with a intellectual acknowledgment - with a "what do I get out of this" belief that many protestants adopt. Oh I'll believe in Jesus cause I get my bum out of hell and hey, its a 'free' gift - with no effort on my part

As opposed to true "belief" in God - which isn't mere belief but true faith. And faith that saves - true faith - only exists if it is a living faith - borne, sustained, beginning, ending, depending on the "grace" of God - His Merciful Love - and thankfully received and lived out in my life through little insignificant "works" which I do to show God I am thankful for His mercy and that I love Him. I am not saved by works - God's mercy alone saves me - but I try to do good "works", love manifested in action, to obey God and please Him. There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".

Love is repaid with Love alone - Much love has been given, much is expected in return[/quote]

[Starets]

Now, jesussaves, why should i believe in "Once Saved always Saved"?
enquiring minds and all that!

[OneForTruth]

PAPA:

I would like to address the scriptures that were brought up as they bring to the table some discussion. First off - who will come to Christ and be saved?? The elect and the elect alone. The details of that discussion would be in another thread...BUT...I will add here now...

Joh 6:44 "[b]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him[/b]; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, [b]that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."[/b]

The elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world...that, one day, they would hear the gospel, repent, and believe on Christ as Lord and Savior. Once done - they are justified by faith apart from works and have the future prospect of being glorified...

Ro 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these [b]whom He justified, He also glorified[/b].

The elect of God must AND WILL persevere to the end as Matthew 24:13 says. This was the first scripture brought to light earlier in this thread...We are exhorted to do so and told that we WILL do so if, indeed, we are of "the called"...

Heb 3:14 For we [b]have become partakers of Christ[/b], if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Please note...persevernce is given as an evidence in this case and not a condition, "have become" being the key phrase. Those who have been chosen WILL persevere. Let's go on to another referenced verse...

Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

This is a warning, correct? What is the purpose of the warnings of scripture? I would argue that the warnings have the purpose of keeping the elect. God makes a decree (Craig will be saved - I have chosen him)...BUT...the conditions that are given for salvation must actaully take place, right? This is the "paradox" that we struggle with...God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. It is very well illustrated in this case...

We have a decree that Paul had received in Acts 27 regarding a dangerous situation that they are found in...a storm on the sea and the following exchange takes place...

Ac 27:21 When they had gone a long time without food, then Paul stood up in their midst and said, "Men, you ought to have followed my advice and not to have set sail from Crete and incurred this damage and loss.
22 "Yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, [b]for there will be no loss of life among you[/b], but only of the ship.
23 "For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
24 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, [b]God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.'[/b]

God has planned this to be so and it will take place - because God has said that this would, in fact, happen...BUT...Paul then says later on...

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 [b]Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.[/b]

If God's decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place and has been foreordained by God...He said - DON'T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. We are warned as these were warned. Without these wanrings, we are prone to becoming proud and haughty which is the warning in Romans 11...this is necessary for the keeping of the elect. Fear is a component of saving faith...

Jer 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and [b]I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me[/b].

The elect will not turn...they will be saved.

(cont'd)

[OneForTruth]

Phil 2:12 was brought up...

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

What is salvation in this case??? It is sanctification. Again - we are to fear God there is no doubt about that. This healthy reverence and awe of God will work for our advantage in that we will become holy and pure and righteous outwardly as God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure...

Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The work wrought in us from God needs to come out in our behavior. This is what it means to "work out" salvation. This is not teaching salvation by works and it is not implying that the elect can fall away. Keeping the elect requires God putting fear in their hearts (Jer 32:40).

Another passage brought up...

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

This is referring to false teachers and we are told a few times in 1 John that they were never born again...

2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, [b]does not have God[/b]; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, [b]but they were not really of us[/b]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; [b]no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him[/b].

This takes on the idea of practicing sin...nobody who is born of God will practice sin...1 John 5:18 is in the context of the "mortal sin verse" - 1 John 5:16. One who has been born of God will NOT fall away utterly.

Rather than being overcome by the world (2Peter 2:20-22)...those born of God will overcome the world...

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

This brings us to Hebrews 10:26-29...

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Again...from teh scriptures passages in 1 John...this is not a JUSTIFIED believer that has fallen away. The fact that it mentions this..."...has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified..." does not mean what you think it means...the word sanctified can be referring to Christ (John 17:19) and it can also be looked upon as a sanctification that was only perceived through the knowledge of the person falling away but not a reality. The interpretation that I hear from other Catholic people is overshadowed by Hebrews 10:14...

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Once true sanctification begins, it will continue (although the just man falls seven times but God upholds him with His hand). The justified WILL BE glorified...they WILL BE raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(cont'd)

[OneForTruth]

Phil 2:12 was brought up...

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

What is salvation in this case??? It is sanctification. Again - we are to fear God there is no doubt about that. This healthy reverence and awe of God will work for our advantage in that we will become holy and pure and righteous outwardly as God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure...

Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The work wrought in us from God needs to come out in our behavior. This is what it means to "work out" salvation. This is not teaching salvation by works and it is not implying that the elect can fall away. Keeping the elect requires God putting fear in their hearts (Jer 32:40).

Another passage brought up...

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

This is referring to false teachers and we are told a few times in 1 John that they were never born again...

2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, [b]does not have God[/b]; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, [b]but they were not really of us[/b]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; [b]no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him[/b].

This takes on the idea of practicing sin...nobody who is born of God will practice sin...1 John 5:18 is in the context of the "mortal sin verse" - 1 John 5:16. One who has been born of God will NOT fall away utterly.

Rather than being overcome by the world (2Peter 2:20-22)...those born of God will overcome the world...

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

This brings us to Hebrews 10:26-29...

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Again...from teh scriptures passages in 1 John...this is not a JUSTIFIED believer that has fallen away. The fact that it mentions this..."...has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified..." does not mean what you think it means...the word sanctified can be referring to Christ (John 17:19) and it can also be looked upon as a sanctification that was only perceived through the knowledge of the person falling away but not a reality. The interpretation that I hear from other Catholic people is overshadowed by Hebrews 10:14...

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Once true sanctification begins, it will continue (although the just man falls seven times but God upholds him with His hand). The justified WILL BE glorified...they WILL BE raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(cont'd)

[OneForTruth]

Matthew 7:21 was also brought up...this only stregthens our position...

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Those who take part in the church and experience the same graces that the elect do by the working of the Holy Spirit (from the outside)...hearing the word of God...being around other Christians...tasting the heavenly gift through knowledge/understanding etc...and then fall away (or, in some cases, remain until the last judgment)...NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN. He never knew them. They were not chosen of God - they were not of the sheep.

Another reference:

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, [b]is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

How true...keeping commandments is not something the elect need to do - they WILL do it as explained in verse 3. We know that we are in Him is we keep His commandments...this is one test to give yourself if you are making certain of His calling and choosing you (2 Peter 2:10). Verse 4 continues to strengthen our position...that people who do not give evidence of salvation are LIARS and the truth is NOT in them. They are bad fish caught up in the dragnet of the gospel invitation (parable of the dragnet - Matthew 13).

ALSO BROUGHT UP:

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Exactly...those who are born of God will not practice sin - they will not fall away. They are saved and saved forever.

1Jo 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Again - another evidence of salvation...

Holiness is not the way to Christ - Christ is the way to holiness. None of this FRUIT is possible unless one has been chosen from before the foundation of the world and then, inevitably, comes to Christ in repentance and faith...seeing the glory of Christ and the treasure that He is...placing all faith and trust in His bloody sacrifice for their salvation...when this takes place, they are justified (which is an event that begins the Christian life) and are now a new creature...to be sanctified by faith/by the word of God and the Holy Spirit.

In Christ, Link

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1401156' date='Oct 12 2007, 07:45 AM']Ted Haggard?

The dozens of other prominent Evangelical leaders who preach about moral living but go against their own message behind closed doors?

I am not condemning them for this. Their sins lie between them and God, not between them and me. What I do condemn is the way so many Evangelical Christians try to force that sort of behaviour into the "Once Saved, Always Saved" mould.

"He wasn't a true Christian to start with. He must not have got saved properly." [Question: If professing belief in Jesus is all that is required for salvation, how is it possible not to do it 'properly'? Doesn't that suggest that some effort is required on the part of the believer? Co-operation with divine grace, perhaps?]

"He wasn't cut off from God. He's just backsliding." [So, when you 'get saved', sin becomes like an elastic band - you can sin as much as you like and trust that the band will ping back eventually? What kind of shoddy excuse for holiness is this?]

"He's saved, so he can't commit a mortal sin. His sins may be bad, but they aren't deadly." [This is perhaps the most illogical one of all, as it suggests that Jesus' sacrifice changed the nature of sin itself rather than the life of the believer.]

Jesus is our holiness. Our only holiness. We know that we have nothing by our own merit. This is expressed by one short, poignant, powerful line of a prayer that we pray during every Mass: "You alone are the Holy One." No Catholic believes that DIY salvation is possible - this is a myth, distorted by countless Protestant games of Chinese whispers and aided by strains of Jansenism that still haven't entirely died out in parts of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church describes salvation as ‘the most excellent work of God’s love – the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being’. This makes it quite clear that salvation for Catholics is something that is freely given and freely received, not something that we buy or earn. But if we accept that salvation is God’s love at its most sublime, there is no way it can be detached from our actions, prayer, or relationships with others…because God’s love holds all those things in being.

To use an imperfect metaphor, our understanding of salvation is like ballroom dancing. The whole dance is of God's composition; we have nothing to offer it except our co-operation. Jesus is not going to drag us round the dance floor against our will. We have to make a conscious choice to follow Him, to tread where He treads, to move where He moves, to live as He lives. It takes effort to respond to love. But while the Evangelical Protestant looks at this effort and sees it as draining and onerous, the Catholic sees it as a celebration dance.

Fear of Hell plays a large part in Evangelical Protestant faith and practice, which is perhaps why so many Evangelical Protestants see the Catholic hope of Heaven as so frightening and pitiful. But we are not afraid, because that hope does not exist as a tributary to a terror of Hell - it comes to us as a gift of the Holy Spirit. And what a gift!

A Protestant friend who was out to convert me once said, "Vicky, there is nothing better than knowing that you are saved." I replied, "No. There is nothing better than knowing that you are loved."

God's love is the only certainty I need, which is why I am very much at peace when I say, "I live in hope of Heaven."[/quote]

Again - one who has been born of God WILL NOT fall away. 1 John clearly says this. He that has ears to hear - let him hear.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1401289' date='Oct 12 2007, 01:55 PM']Again - one who has been born of God WILL NOT fall away. 1 John clearly says this. He that has ears to hear - let him hear.[/quote]And yet, we believers are warned in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v16"]1 John 5:16,21[/url] to watch out for "deadly sin" (i.e. something which results in eternal death of the soul) and against false idols. Such a warning doesn't make sense if we are all eternally secure.

If you would like to defend your doctrine of eternal security, I created a thread a while ago in which I presented a hypothetical group of "born again" believers and asked the question, "How many would be eternally secure?" May I suggest that you read through the thread in order to see where we are coming from on this subject? After reading it, I would welcome any comments you had. Here is the link:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=67642"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=67642[/url]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1401156' date='Oct 12 2007, 07:45 AM']A Protestant friend who was out to convert me once said, "Vicky, there is nothing better than knowing that you are saved." I replied, "No. There is nothing better than knowing that you are loved."[/quote]

[PapaHilarious]

OneForTruth,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I have many good friends who are either Calvinist or prescribe to some form of predestination of a Calvinist degree, and I attended a Calvinist school from K through High School, so I have heard this discussion many times before.

I think you might find this article by Jimmy Akin, himself a former Calvinist, helpful in explaining the different Christian views on predestination, in particular how modern Calvinist scholars are proposing a reform to the popular interpretation of "TULIP."

Aside from the Akin article, which is quite in depth, and addresses all the issues that have been referenced so far on this site, I do want to point out another verse which has not been considered. Matthew 23:37. It is one of over 80 such New Testament verses (more discussion of this in the Akin article, of course) that illustrate Free Will and the possibility for some to reject salvation even though Christ wills it for [u]all[/u]. (KJV text):

[quote]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, [u]how often would I have gathered thy children together[/u], even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and [u]ye would not[/u]![/quote]

----
Here's an intro to the article, with a link for the [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp"]full text[/url]. God bless and thanks again for your thoughts.

[quote]It is important for Catholics to know about these subjects: First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [Including Scott Hahn, Gerry Matatics, Steve Wood, myself, and numerous others]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump.[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1401156' date='Oct 12 2007, 08:45 AM']...
A Protestant friend who was out to convert me once said, "Vicky, there is nothing better than knowing that you are saved." I replied, "No. There is nothing better than knowing that you are loved."

God's love is the only certainty I need, which is why I am very much at peace when I say, "I live in hope of Heaven."[/quote]
That's awesome. Amen to that.

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401204' date='Oct 12 2007, 10:56 AM']God has given all of his love - he expects nothing less in return ... If you "believe" your saved and have a loud mouth - quick to proclaim your "holier than thou" saved-ness but you don't obey the command of God which is perfect Love. Your loud mouth, your Bible quoting and your "belief" will NOT save you. Love MUST be repaid with love - as God loves you - you must love Him & in this you are saved because love to such a degree, to such perfection is possible only with God's help

Is God my Saviour? Yes - only God is my savior but I am not "saved" by believing in Him, I am saved by loving Him

Cause believe me - it is easier to "believe" with a intellectual acknowledgment - with a "what do I get out of this" belief that many protestants adopt. Oh I'll believe in Jesus cause I get my bum out of hell and hey, its a 'free' gift - with no effort on my part

As opposed to true "belief" in God - which isn't mere belief but true faith. And faith that saves - true faith - only exists if it is a living faith - borne, sustained, beginning, ending, depending on the "grace" of God - His Merciful Love - and thankfully received and lived out in my life through little insignificant "works" which I do to show God I am thankful for His mercy and that I love Him. I am not saved by works - God's mercy alone saves me - but I try to do good "works", love manifested in action, to obey God and please Him. There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".

Love is repaid with Love alone - Much love has been given, much is expected in return[/quote]
This is a great post. GodChild, you have really opened my heart today with this. My prayer life has been slipping, and that's due to the fact that I forget to do it out of love.

Now that I see the Catholic responses, I conclude that we put an emphasis on love for sure. It's a big thing which can easily be forgotten. Heck, the pope's first encyclical is Deus Caritas Est - God is love.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1401303' date='Oct 12 2007, 12:24 PM']And yet, we believers are warned in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v16"]1 John 5:16,21[/url] to watch out for "deadly sin" (i.e. something which results in eternal death of the soul) and against false idols. Such a warning doesn't make sense if we are all eternally secure.

If you would like to defend your doctrine of eternal security, I created a thread a while ago in which I presented a hypothetical group of "born again" believers and asked the question, "How many would be eternally secure?" May I suggest that you read through the thread in order to see where we are coming from on this subject? After reading it, I would welcome any comments you had. Here is the link:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=67642"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=67642[/url][/quote]

The elect must and they WILL. Scripture remains clear. The warnings are for the keeping of the elect. That is the purpose of the warnings.

Jer 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts [b]so that they will not turn away from Me[/b].

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1401322' date='Oct 12 2007, 01:19 PM']OneForTruth,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I have many good friends who are either Calvinist or prescribe to some form of predestination of a Calvinist degree, and I attended a Calvinist school from K through High School, so I have heard this discussion many times before.

I think you might find this article by Jimmy Akin, himself a former Calvinist, helpful in explaining the different Christian views on predestination, in particular how modern Calvinist scholars are proposing a reform to the popular interpretation of "TULIP."

Aside from the Akin article, which is quite in depth, and addresses all the issues that have been referenced so far on this site, I do want to point out another verse which has not been considered. Matthew 23:37. It is one of over 80 such New Testament verses (more discussion of this in the Akin article, of course) that illustrate Free Will and the possibility for some to reject salvation even though Christ wills it for [u]all[/u]. (KJV text):
----
Here's an intro to the article, with a link for the [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp"]full text[/url]. God bless and thanks again for your thoughts.[/quote]

I have read some of Akin's stuff and it has not been helpful. I was quite sceptical of his interpretations. He was trying to show that justificiation and sanctification are intertwined but there is no teaching of this in scripture. Justification is a past [i]event[/i][u][/u] in the life of a Christian and those who have been justified will be glorified. So, I do not necessarily trust his writings.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1401363' date='Oct 12 2007, 02:12 PM']I have read some of Akin's stuff and it has not been helpful. I was quite sceptical of his interpretations. He was trying to show that justificiation and sanctification are intertwined but there is no teaching of this in scripture. Justification is a past [i]event[/i][u][/u] in the life of a Christian and those who have been justified will be glorified. So, I do not necessarily trust his writings.[/quote]


Well, my friend, that is where this conversation seems to always die. If we all have equal authority to interpret Scripture, then there is no way to settle disputes like this. Consider the 30,000 Protestant denominations, most of which not prescribing to any sort of Calvinist view of predestination. For you to hold to Calvinist teaching, you have to deny their interpretations as well, keeping in mind they would call your reading of Scripture equally "skeptical." It's not just Catholics and Orthodox, the vast majority of Protestants do not hold to what Calvin teaches.

And what does Scripture tell us to do when there are disputes among Christians? Matthew 18:17

[quote]If he refuses to listen to [the one or two witnesses], [u]tell it to the Church[/u]; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.[/quote]

We can go in circles all day debating the beliefs of a man who splintered off from the Church less than 500 years ago and preached [i]his[/i] view as the truth. Or, we can appeal to the authority that Christ left us in Matthew's Gospel. Christ establishes a Church for just such a reason, so that we could be One (John 17:20-23).

Jesus, after all, did not leave us the Bible. He left us the authority of the Church, which then produced the Bible over the next few decades. Paul talks about the authority and tradition passed on by the apostles in 2 Thes 2:15:

[quote]So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the [u]traditions[/u] which you were taught by us, either by [u]word of mouth[/u] or by [u]letter[/u].[/quote]

Praise be to Christ for such a gift of the Church! Were we left all to our own interpretations, there would be no authority, no ability to settle disputes, and no ability to be One in Christ. What a dark fate Jesus saved us from with his words in Matthew 16, by staving off the very gates of hell.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1401361' date='Oct 12 2007, 05:09 PM']The elect must and they WILL. Scripture remains clear. The warnings are for the keeping of the elect. That is the purpose of the warnings.[/quote]If someone is among the elect, then they need no warning...unless you think that failing to heed the warnings will "unelect" someone.

In any event, this begs the question, "What criteria do we use for definitively deciding whether someone is among the elect?" I provided the link to the other thread since it addresses this issue head-on.

[Starets]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1401361' date='Oct 12 2007, 04:09 PM']The elect must and they WILL. Scripture remains clear. The warnings are for the keeping of the elect. That is the purpose of the warnings.

Jer 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts [b]so that they will not turn away from Me[/b].[/quote]
In that case you don't REALLY know if you are one of the Elect until you drop dead, do you? after all, if you suddenly go on a sinning spree just before dropping dead then "obviously" you weren't one of the Elect! You didn't perservere. And since the saints WILL persevere (your word, remember), then obviously that person wasnt a saint even if he was godly in all ways until the day he died and on the day he died he went on his sinning spree.

its because of hypothetical scenarios like that that i don't believe in OSAS and don't think the Bible is as clear on that point as you seem to.

But what do I know. I am a bear of little brain :shrug:

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1401012' date='Oct 11 2007, 08:25 PM']in your analogy, jesus only gave you the means to save yourself. you are the savior of yourself, and he is helping. you can't make the statement that he is your savior, cause he is not unless you're in rome already.[/quote]


I can hardly add to the tremendous amount of biblical evidence provided by others in this thread (great job everyone!), but I did want to respond to this argument made by jesussaves.

Let me change the analogy a little bit. Suppose you are lost at sea and you are floating in the middle of the ocean, almost ready to drown. Then someone comes with a boat and throws out the life saver to you. You grab it, and you are reeled in.

Now, according to your statement in that last message, this person lost at sea must be considered to have "saved himself". Yet anyone with an ounce of common sense sees that it would be stark raving mad to make such an assertion. Can you imagine hearing about this on television and hearing the water-logged person say "Whew! It is a good thing I saved myself!"

No indeed. We would expect him to give all the credit to the boatman, and this would be correct. The person had no power to save himself. Saying that because he took the action of grabbing the life-saver he must therefore be considered to have saved himself is just silly.

Now let us carry things to the depth necessary: the concepts that go beyond analogy.

For you, salvation is something that is invisible and happens outside this realm at the very moment of faith. We believe this is true to an extent as well. [b]But Salvation is more than this.[/b] Salvation for us is something visible. I am not merely acquitted in a trial, I am adopted as a son. My relationship with Jesus Christ is not something that merely "covers" me like snow over a dung hill. My relationship with Jesus involves him, like a husband to his wife (pardon the graphic imagery, but this is what the mystics have said, not just me), coming into me. Him bringing his grace into my life necessarily changes me and makes me pregnant with good works. A woman saying "I do" at the altar is not the end of the story, it is the beginning. Salvation, just as Christ himself, must be incarnated into this world, and we have a choice whether we let that happen or not.

Going back to the analogy of the boat and the ocean, one has to hold fast to the life-saver as one is pulled toward the boat. One will hit waves and foam and tempests. If the person holds fast until the end (as the Scriptures say), he will be saved. PERIOD.

This is also insightful for the idea that we as Christians "have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved." When the life-saver is thrown out to you, you say "I have been saved!" And you say it rightly. During the long and difficult process of being pulled in, you say, "I am being saved and will be saved!" And you say this rightly.

God bless you all,

Philip