Justification By Faith Alone

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='mortify' post='1401925' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:25 PM']Justification is a past event in the sense that we were justified when we were baptized, but it's really an ongoing "process," not in the sense that we are working towards receiving justification, but in the sense that we must continually cooperate with the Holy Spirit to foster and protect the justified state we received.[/quote]

We are justified by faith - not by baptism...

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

We receive the righteousness of Christ and the death of Christ at the hearing of faith.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1401928' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:33 PM']I would say the answer is "yes" in that they are two aspects of the same thing. Not seeing that is how James can be an "Epistle of Straw"[/quote]

Justification in Romans is a declaration of one to be righteous. The justification of James 2 is of the faith - proving that it is real by the seeing of fruit.

James 2:14 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [b]that faith [/b]save him?

Is the faith dead or living - that is the question of James 2.

[mortify]

If a person refuses baptism they have no faith.

[Deo Iuvente]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402520' date='Oct 14 2007, 08:12 PM']We are justified by faith - not by baptism...

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

We receive the righteousness of Christ and the death of Christ at the hearing of faith.[/quote]
1Peter 3:19-22 "Baptism now saves you"
Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5.What now?

[hyperdulia again]

I repeat:

I must admit I didn't read your scripture quotes. If we properly understand the meanings of the word faith and justification, Catholic Christians have no problem giving assent to justification by faith alone. If faith is understood as inseparable from holiness of life, then yes I can stand with my Protestant brothers and sisters and the whole of Christian Tradition and say yes Faith working through grace will save/is saving/has saved me.

[Starets]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402523' date='Oct 14 2007, 09:14 PM']Justification in Romans is a declaration of one to be righteous. The justification of James 2 is of the faith - proving that it is real by the seeing of fruit.

James 2:14 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [b]that faith [/b]save him?

Is the faith dead or living - that is the question of James 2.[/quote]
Justification, both in Romans and elsewhere, is not just a past completed act or a declaration. It is also the ongoing outworking of righteousness in the believer. They are part and parcel of the same process of transformation into the image and likeness of God.

In 2 Corintians 7:1 as well as Hebrews 12:10 and 14, Christians are urged to strive for sanctity, holiness, and discipline. That too is the process of justification/sanctification. St. Paul also warns believers not to fall into old sinful lives, in such places as 1 Corinthians 6 and Galations 5. That can reduce our justification to the point of losing our salvation. So much for OSAS and the I and P of the TULIP!

Since justification is both a completed action and an ongoing process, then the justification of which St. Paul speaks is the same as the justification of which St. James speaks.

The "apples and oranges" here isnt justification, it's works. When St. Paul contrasts "faith" and "Works", the "works" of which St Paul speaks are the works of the mosaic law; when St. James makes that same contrast, the works of which St James speaks are the works of Christian obedience.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Deo Iuvente' post='1402610' date='Oct 14 2007, 09:18 PM']1Peter 3:19-22 "Baptism now saves you"
Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5.What now?[/quote]

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ([b]not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God[/b],) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is not speaking of justification! Rom 10:10 is the clearest of all scriptures against your assertion...

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man [b]believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Justification happens in the heart.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='mortify' post='1402550' date='Oct 14 2007, 08:33 PM']If a person refuses baptism they have no faith.[/quote]

I will not disagree with that...that does not go against Rom 5:1 - that we are justified by faith.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1402628' date='Oct 14 2007, 09:37 PM']Justification, both in Romans and elsewhere, is not just a past completed act or a declaration. It is also the ongoing outworking of righteousness in the believer. They are part and parcel of the same process of transformation into the image and likeness of God.

In 2 Corintians 7:1 as well as Hebrews 12:10 and 14, Christians are urged to strive for sanctity, holiness, and discipline. That too is the process of justification/sanctification. St. Paul also warns believers not to fall into old sinful lives, in such places as 1 Corinthians 6 and Galations 5. That can reduce our justification to the point of losing our salvation. So much for OSAS and the I and P of the TULIP!

Since justification is both a completed action and an ongoing process, then the justification of which St. Paul speaks is the same as the justification of which St. James speaks.

The "apples and oranges" here isnt justification, it's works. When St. Paul contrasts "faith" and "Works", the "works" of which St Paul speaks are the works of the mosaic law; when St. James makes that same contrast, the works of which St James speaks are the works of Christian obedience.[/quote]

You are mxing the two without scriptural basis...your basis is only for sanctification which has its foundation...justifcation. Justification stands as a foundation - it is an event in the past.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It ultimately will lead to glorification...

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these [b]whom He justified, He also glorified[/b].

I am not saying that justification may or may not be follwed by sanctification...I am saying that justification is on the basis of faith alone and it is what is at the beginning of the Christian life as an event.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402517' date='Oct 15 2007, 03:10 AM']Right on!![/quote]

Do you realise that you have just said "Right on!" to several paragraphs of pure Catholicism? GodChild's understanding of salvation is Catholic, even if she doesn't consider herself Catholic. To support her position, she quoted from the writing of St Therese of Lisieux - one of the few women to be distinguished with the title Doctor of the Church.

You would do better to learn about Catholicism from the beginning.

[Starets]

Well, first of all, justification is by Grace alone, not faith alone.

Second, it is the reformed position that Justification and Sanctification are two separate things. That is not the Catholic position at all. The catholic position is that the two are inextricably intertwined into the same process of transformation in Christ.

yes, the Bible verses you quote indicate a starting point, which you call "justification". To the calvinist, is an extrinsic declaration and nothing more; to the Catholic it is an intrinsic change that has a beginning and involves the expectation of growth through works of righeousness and obedience and can be lost through sin.

There is the past completed action, but thats not all there is. The division between justification and sanctification does not appear to exist in the biblical text.

The very verse that you quote, 1 Corinthians 6:11, itself equates the two: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God".

I see no reason, biblical or otherwise, to separate sancitification from justification.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402920' date='Oct 15 2007, 04:31 AM']1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ([b]not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God[/b],) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is not speaking of justification! Rom 10:10 is the clearest of all scriptures against your assertion...

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man [b]believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Justification happens in the heart.[/quote]

Hmmm. So Peter saying "Baptism now saves" and Jesus saying in Mark 16 that salvation is for those who "believe and are baptized" isn't literal because it doesn't go with Calvin's interpretation of some other verses? You should realize how badly that damages your credibility that you constantly take verses which contradict Calvin and just say "that's not justification" again and again, as if you saying it is supposed to make it so.

I'll ask again. [b]Where does your interpreting authority come from????[/b] Even Joseph Smith claimed a source of authority. I'm hearing no defense from you.

PS - Still no response yet about how much of your argument is just cut and pasted from other websites? I guess you were hoping people would just forget about that?

Edited October 15, 2007 by PapaHilarious

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1402939' date='Oct 15 2007, 07:38 AM']Do you realise that you have just said "Right on!" to several paragraphs of pure Catholicism? GodChild's understanding of salvation is Catholic, even if she doesn't consider herself Catholic. To support her position, she quoted from the writing of St Therese of Lisieux - one of the few women to be distinguished with the title Doctor of the Church.

You would do better to learn about Catholicism from the beginning. [/quote]

You have not read the whole thread...the true Catholic doctrine makes justification a process. I did not see that in this posting. Justification is a legal declaration in Romans 3-5.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1402981' date='Oct 15 2007, 10:06 AM']Hmmm. So Peter saying "Baptism now saves" and Jesus saying in Mark 16 that salvation is for those who "believe and are baptized" isn't literal because it doesn't go with Calvin's interpretation of some other verses? You should realize how badly that damages your credibility that you constantly take verses which contradict Calvin and just say "that's not justification" again and again, as if you saying it is supposed to make it so.

I'll ask again. [b]Where does your interpreting authority come from????[/b] Even Joseph Smith claimed a source of authority. I'm hearing no defense from you.

PS - Still no response yet about how much of your argument is just cut and pasted from other websites? I guess you were hoping people would just forget about that? [/quote]

What you fail to realize is that Jesus did NOT say that baptsim was the BASIS for justification or the means of it. Justification comes by faith...Rom 10:10 is clear that it is a matter of the heart before any outward confession...

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I have already agreed with someone here that those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved.

None of it is cut and pasted (in this thread) - do not make false accusation.

Edited October 15, 2007 by OneForTruth

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1402963' date='Oct 15 2007, 09:20 AM']I see no reason, biblical or otherwise, to separate sancitification from justification.[/quote]

You are mixing justification with [b]progressive sanctification [/b]and not that positional sanctification that takes place at salvation (an event when when dies to the law and to sin). This is where justification and sanctification are together.

[Starets]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403021' date='Oct 15 2007, 12:47 PM']You are mixing justification with [b]progressive sanctification [/b]and not that positional sanctification that takes place at salvation (an event when when dies to the law and to sin). This is where justification and sanctification are together.[/quote]
It's a seamless garment. justification and sanctification are together at all points. the terms are complementary synonyms

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403020' date='Oct 15 2007, 10:45 AM']What you fail to realize is that Jesus did NOT say that baptsim was the BASIS for justification or the means of it. Justification comes by faith...Rom 10:10 is clear that it is a matter of the heart before any outward confession...

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I have already agreed with someone here that those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved.

None of it is cut and pasted (in this thread) - do not make false accusation.[/quote]

As Catholic Anonymous has already pointed out, the more you try to reword your position now, the more you end up agreeing with Catholic teaching. If you're now agreeing that baptism is necessary (your words: "those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved") then you've changed the original Reformist doctrine of "faith alone."

PS - It's good to know that only in the [i]other[/i] thread you were cutting and pasting old pieces of conversations instead of actually trying to have a dialogue. Why we should trust you in your claim that you haven't done it in this thread, I don't know.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403020' date='Oct 15 2007, 10:45 AM']What you fail to realize is that Jesus did NOT say that baptsim was the BASIS for justification or the means of it. Justification comes by faith...Rom 10:10 is clear that it is a matter of the heart before any outward confession...

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I have already agreed with someone here that those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved.

None of it is cut and pasted (in this thread) - do not make false accusation.[/quote]


PPS - [b]Still no desire to respond to how your interpretation has any more authority than that of JWs, the LDS church, Orthdox churches, or 30,000 other Protestant denominations?[/b]

Should you wish to admit that Calvin has no more authority than any other Christian who wants to pick up and interpret the Bible, you would not be admitting some kind of defeat, just so you are aware. There are many Calvinists (one of my best friends, in fact, falls into this category) who hold to all the doctrines you do, but do not launch antagonizing threads and try to tell other Christians that their interpretations are [i]clearly[/i] wrong.

But then, where would be the fun of wanting to discuss views as equals and without judging?

[123]

If you are justified by just your faith then why do you need churches, The Bible, prayer, or even baptism? Regardless, whether baptism to certain denominations believe that baptism is just a symbol and has no innate ability or not, it's still not necessary for those whom believe that they are justified by their faith.

[Autumn Dusk]

Why is it such a big debate? People are going to believe what they want about salvation, playing wordsearch with the Bible isn't going to help.