Why Are The Churches Empty?

[hyperdulia again]

What are the reasons for the decline of Christianity in the West? Particularly in the Catholic countries.

Edited October 23, 2007 by hyperdulia again

[dairygirl4u2c]

prob number one is people find the rules to be a drag. second is that it's boring. third is that all the apologetics and such, it's hard to know who's right.

if who was right is clearer, i think the first two reasons could be better overcome.

these seem to be the primary reasons, IMHO, from what i notice.

[Lena]

rise of secular culture? I had a friend who lived in Spain for awhile and she said the churches were empty....it was her and older people mostly. it could have been just the area, I have no idea. The churches I go to are pretty full. Sunday Mass is pretty packed, but then again I grew up in a bigger city with a lot of Catholic schools in the area.

Edited October 23, 2007 by Lena

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1408122' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:49 PM']second is that it's boring.[/quote]
To whom!?
I love the mass; I consider it a privilege to have such a beautiful mass. I try to go to daily mass whenever I can.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1408120' date='Oct 23 2007, 08:46 PM']What are the reasons for the decline of Christianity in the West? Particularly in the Catholic countries.[/quote]

You're referring to Europe I'm assuming?

Don't know exactly, but a large part would have to be the rise of secular culture (as one poster already pointed out). Even though the U.S. is not considered a "Catholic" country, many of it's churches aren't empty. Virginia's Catholic population is climbing each year, and we don't have enough priests in the Diocese of Richmond to maintain it.

[hyperdulia again]

Not just Europe. Not just Catholics. Things are better in North America, but not much better.

[dUSt]

Because going to church has become too secularized, and most churches attempt, and fail to draw people in by becoming more like the world instead of less like the world.

Let's learn from Coke (the church). It dominated the cola scene. Pepsi (the world) started winning taste tests. Coke got scared and tried to become more like Pepsi, making new Coke. It failed miserably because people didn't want more Pepsi, they wanted the Real Thing.

I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.

[Jaime]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1408122' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:49 PM']prob number one is people find the rules to be a drag. second is that it's boring. third is that all the apologetics and such, it's hard to know who's right.

if who was right is clearer, i think the first two reasons could be better overcome.

these seem to be the primary reasons, IMHO, from what i notice.[/quote]

Dairy is 100% correct. Poor Catechesis is to blame.

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1408177' date='Oct 23 2007, 08:52 PM']I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.[/quote]

How do we do this?

I agree with the basic assertion that we have forgotten that we are strangers here. Sojourners on a very brief journey, who are called to preach Christ crucified to the world, and live lives that bear evidence of that, but I'm not at all clear on how we accomplish this. When you look at places like Catholic Europe and Latin America you see the atrophying of once vibrant Catholic cultures. What do we do to bring them back to life? Not to mention reverse the tide of institutional decay that is taking a serious toll on the Church in North America.

We cannot retreat like the Amish, but we cannot cave in like the Episopalians either.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1408120' date='Oct 23 2007, 08:46 PM']What are the reasons for the decline of Christianity in the West? Particularly in the Catholic countries.[/quote]

I think it's Dave's fault and people like him... people like him that have this strange fascination with passing gas do not realize when they pass gas... Some are so use to it, they don't realize how it affects those around them.

Sorry Dave, but we need an intervention and this is it... Please Dave, stop passing gas.

LOL

God Bless Hyper! - I couldn't resist it.
ironmonk

[hyperdulia again]

ok...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1408122' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:49 PM']prob number one is people find the rules to be a drag. second is that it's boring. third is that all the apologetics and such, it's hard to know who's right.

if who was right is clearer, i think the first two reasons could be better overcome.

these seem to be the primary reasons, IMHO, from what i notice.[/quote]
You're right. People find mass boring cause they don't know what's going on. Bad catechesis. They don't see the gift that Christ gives us.

[quote name='dUSt' post='1408177' date='Oct 23 2007, 08:52 PM']Because going to church has become too secularized, and most churches attempt, and fail to draw people in by becoming more like the world instead of less like the world.

Let's learn from Coke (the church). It dominated the cola scene. Pepsi (the world) started winning taste tests. Coke got scared and tried to become more like Pepsi, making new Coke. It failed miserably because people didn't want more Pepsi, they wanted the Real Thing.

I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.[/quote]
Amen, brotha.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1408188' date='Oct 23 2007, 09:01 PM']How do we do this?

I agree with the basic assertion that we have forgotten that we are strangers here. Sojourners on a very brief journey, who are called to preach Christ crucified to the world, and live lives that bear evidence of that, but I'm not at all clear on how we accomplish this. When you look at places like Catholic Europe and Latin America you see the atrophying of once vibrant Catholic cultures. What do we do to bring them back to life? Not to mention reverse the tide of institutional decay that is taking a serious toll on the Church in North America.

We cannot retreat like the Amish, but we cannot cave in like the Episopalians either.[/quote]
Well, first, we could bring back traditional ritual. Start getting into it again. Also we gotta reform the music quick. That's an important role... "What about Bach?" (heh heh) Don't forget to put God first in doing all this though. Simple statement, sometimes difficult to act upon.

[hyperdulia again]

Practically speaking SMM what does this mean? How do we get back into traditional ritual? What will that do to get Frenchman to show up to Mass for purposes other than the life cycle sacraments (baptism, first communion, confirmation, 1st marriage, mass of Christian Burial)?

[rkwright]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1408122' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:49 PM']prob number one is people find the rules to be a drag. second is that it's boring. third is that all the apologetics and such, it's hard to know who's right.

if who was right is clearer, i think the first two reasons could be better overcome.

these seem to be the primary reasons, IMHO, from what i notice.[/quote]

I would argue your third point. Apologetics and such are not new to the Church. Most the arguments have been around for at least 500 years. Theres not a whole lot of 'new' stuff in apologetics.

Instead no one knows whose right, because the world is saying everyone is right. Our culture has embraced relativism to the point that no one can be wrong, just different. Thus why be Catholic... it has more rules and restrictions and is no more right than anyone else...

Thats the problem.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1408177' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:52 PM']I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.[/quote]
You are like a cool version of Tom!

[Lena]

[quote]Our culture has embraced relativism to the point that no one can be wrong, just different. Thus why be Catholic... it has more rules and restrictions and is no more right than anyone else...[/quote]

I agree with this also, as being problematic---and religion is such a touchy subject, so debatable among people.

Oh, I would like to add that I have heard of many reasons from some people leaving the church/not attending because of the Church's stances on many hot issues today, such as homosexuality. "You exclude people from the church" is something I hear quite a bit. Also, many people think the Church isn't in alliance with feminist values today (like, "why can't women be priests"). This is just conversations I've overheard or had with people on their views of the church. It's viewed as an "outdated" religion.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1408177' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:52 PM']Because going to church has become too secularized, and most churches attempt, and fail to draw people in by becoming more like the world instead of less like the world.

Let's learn from Coke (the church). It dominated the cola scene. Pepsi (the world) started winning taste tests. Coke got scared and tried to become more like Pepsi, making new Coke. It failed miserably because people didn't want more Pepsi, they wanted the Real Thing.

I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.[/quote]

I totally concur with this.

[Adrestia]

why?

self-reliance. laziness.

how do we fix it?

become better Catholics so we can better witness to God's infinite love.

pray for our clergy and lay ministers (especially those who volunteer to catechise public school)

[Socrates]

Okay, I can't speak for the Church in the rest of Western world, but in my parish, the church is certainly not empty. In fact, if you arrive late, you may have trouble finding a seat at some of the four Sunday masses. Our parish has more than doubled in size during the past ten years, and has grown just as fast before that, being located in a smallish town that is not historically Catholic. The parish also has a strong youthful presence, and people of all ages can be found at mass.

Of course, the reason for parish's growth will likely remain a dark mystery to most liberals.
We have fairly old-fashioned, "boring" reverent liturgies, including a Sunday afternoon Tridentine Mass, with mostly old-fashioned, un-hip hymns.
No U2 masses, polka masses, or techno clown/Barney masses, or anything else clever or relevent to our times.

Due to outmoded sexist policies, no girls are allowed in the sancturary, but somehow women come to mass anyway, and few complain.

The priests are solidly orthodox, and preach that boring, old-fashioned morality that nobody wants to hear. They will condemn sins such as contraception, abortion, and supporting pro-abort pols, and other things that drive all right-minded modern people from Church.
Evidentally, quite a few of the parishioners take this to heart, as evidenced by all the small children crawling over the pews.
And all that suffocating old-fashioned Catholic guilt keeps the lines to the confessional long every Saturday afternoon and weekday mornings and evenings. In fact, if you don't come early, you might not have time to have your confession heard.

People also go to the perpetual adoration in the adoration chapel (the old Church, recently restored to its outmoded, irrelevent pre-Vatican II glory), and take part in other outmoded, irrelevent Catholic activities.

So who knows why the church is not empty - other than that we're a bunch of backwards, benighted ultra-conservative dinosaurs, unlike the dissident, contracepting, liberal non-churchgoers, who as every secular news magazine will inform you, are the Future of the Church.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Socrates

[MissyP89]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1408240' date='Oct 23 2007, 09:48 PM']I would argue your third point. Apologetics and such are not new to the Church. Most the arguments have been around for at least 500 years. Theres not a whole lot of 'new' stuff in apologetics.

Instead no one knows whose right, because the world is saying everyone is right. Our culture has embraced relativism to the point that no one can be wrong, just different. Thus why be Catholic... it has more rules and restrictions and is no more right than anyone else...

Thats the problem.[/quote]

Exactly right. Everyone is right, so why bother? I mean, who would [i]want[/i] to avoid all the heady pleasures of this world when there are no consequences? I certainly wouldn't, and didn't, for a long time.