More Than One Pro-life Issue?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 03:18 PM']Life matters, but remember that life isn't just those who are waiting to be born.[/quote]
So like your point would include how it is hard to care about someone else's concieved egg when you are worried about having food for your own children?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1423839' date='Nov 22 2007, 11:41 PM']So like your point would include how it is hard to care about someone else's concieved egg when you are worried about having food for your own children?[/quote]
That and how can someone go around saying they defend life while fighting agaisnt abortions when they forget about everyone else and their lives? Life starts at conception, but doesnt end until death. What about everyone else?

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 06:18 PM']That's all fine and dandy. But for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not. For people who have hard lives, who live from paycheck to paycheck, one more life saved from abortion doesnt matter. Im not trying to be insensitive, I'm being realistic. People care about how politicians will help them, not if they're "pro-life" or "pro-choice." Sometimes, you need to be more realistic. Life matters, but remember that life isn't just those who are waiting to be born.[/quote]
Excuse me, pal, but pro-lifers [i]are[/i] real people with real problems. Plenty of them probably have more serious "real-world" problems to deal with in their lives than you. I don't know where you got the idea that all people who care about ending abortion are sitting around eating bon-bons in some idyllic world removed from the problems of the "real world." Many of us are far from rich.

Sorry bubba, but if you care nothing about the millions of innocent babies being murdered, that says more about you and your callous and self-centered attitude than it does against pro-lifers.

I know many strongly pro-life people who I'm sure have done [i]far[/i] more to help other people in this life than you have. This nonsense insinuating that pro-lifers don't care about anyone once they are born is nothing but pure rot.

And blaming pro-life voters for all our problems in the country is one of the stupidest things I've heard lately.
I've seen nothing to convince me that everything will be so much better if only we elect more pro-abortion politicians to office.

I'm not seeing much in the way of actual argumentation here from you, only bitter emotional rants.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423676' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:24 PM']Is George Bush your figurehead and symbol of these methods? Yes, they have worked so well thus far...[/quote]

sorry, i don't understand what you are trying to say.

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 04:18 PM']But for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not.[/quote]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423779' date='Nov 22 2007, 08:14 PM']I'm pointing out that to everyday working Americans, abortion isn't an important issue.[/quote]

i would consider myself an everyday working American living paycheck to paycheck, and yes, abortion does matter: if a society can diminish the value of a single life for a perceived greater good (as you seem to be agreeing with), then the whole society begins to rot (as we are seeing in this country). What is more important than protecting all life?

also, you haven't responded to either of Socrates' posts.

[Adrestia]

This is a very familiar conversation.

Can "we" disagree about whether legality is the most important issue while still working together to reduce the desire for abortion? Can we work with pro-choice individuals who also want to improve the lives of mothers and fathers that choose life? Or does our passion about about the legality hinder our ability to work with others?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424098' date='Nov 23 2007, 09:23 PM']I don't know where you got the idea that all people who care about ending abortion are sitting around eating bon-bons in some idyllic world removed from the problems of the "real world."[/quote]
Never said that.

[quote]Sorry bubba, but if you care nothing about the millions of innocent babies being murdered, that says more about you and your callous and self-centered attitude than it does against pro-lifers.[/quote]
Never said I didnt care about the babies. But they aren't my top priority. Sorry. If that makes you think Im callous, oh well.

[quote]This nonsense insinuating that pro-lifers don't care about anyone once they are born is nothing but pure rot.[/quote]
I wouldnt be insinuating something unless I saw basis. My point is that the pro-life movement quite often comes off as not caring about anyone but the babies. It may not be true, but reputations speak volumes.

[quote]And blaming pro-life voters for all our problems in the country is one of the stupidest things I've heard lately.
I've seen nothing to convince me that everything will be so much better if only we elect more pro-abortion politicians to office.[/quote]
It's okay, i think a lot of what you say is complete bull too. I'm glad the feeling is mutual.

I never said everything would be okay. Im upset that most of you will disregard a cantidate because they are pro-choice. I don't think everything is that black and white. Good thing I'm not catholic, but that means I'm allowed to disagree.

[quote]I'm not seeing much in the way of actual argumentation here from you, only bitter emotional rants.[/quote]You see what you want to see.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1424103' date='Nov 23 2007, 09:39 PM']sorry, i don't understand what you are trying to say.
i would consider myself an everyday working American living paycheck to paycheck, and yes, abortion does matter: if a society can diminish the value of a single life for a perceived greater good (as you seem to be agreeing with), then the whole society begins to rot (as we are seeing in this country). What is more important than protecting all life?[/quote]
Are you personally affected? That's my point. You may care, but whether or not another baby lives or dies, as sad as it is, doesn't affect you personally. If we only elect people based on whether they support abortion or not, we aren't doing ourselves any favors. Yes, abortion can be one issue to consider, but i think if you're only going to consider that, i'd rather you not waste your vote.

[quote]also, you haven't responded to either of Socrates' posts.[/quote]I choose not to due to the fact that many of the things he says come off as personal attacks.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424114' date='Nov 23 2007, 09:30 PM']This is a very familiar conversation.

Can "we" disagree about whether legality is the most important issue while still working together to reduce the desire for abortion? Can we work with pro-choice individuals who also want to improve the lives of mothers and fathers that choose life? Or does our passion about about the legality hinder our ability to work with others?[/quote]
The answer ought to be yes we can work together. As Christians, I think we ought to work in a more holistic way for the betterment of society to promote life in all of its stages.

[XIX]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423779' date='Nov 22 2007, 10:14 PM']It does relate. I'm pointing out that to everyday working Americans, abortion isn't an important issue. Elected officials are responsible to serve the public.[/quote]
That doesn't make any sense. Abortion is an issue that affects everybody in a direct and real way. If a stressed out family doesn't think about and/or doesn't care about the unborn, that doesn't affect the importance of the issue. Again, we are talking about what is actually important, not what people think is important or what people care about. I can say that I don't care about school, but my apathy doesn't make it any less important.

Besides, the unborn are Americans too, and part of the public that the elected officials are supposed to serve.
[quote]I agree that life is important, and phasing out abortion is necessary,[/quote]
Your posts say otherwise...you constantly emphasize helping people who are out of the womb over while making the unborn a "yeah...but" proposition. "Helping the unborn is important, but..."

I guess I'm the other way around. There are other important issues out there, but abortion is paramount. Life and death issues are, for obvious reasons, bigger than non-life and death issues. More people die from abortion that any other cause, and it's not even close. It's around one million per year. Abortion precedes every other issue--a great welfare program won't do anything to help you if you don't even make if out of the womb. Every other right literally disappears if you are denied the right to life, because obviously, you aren't alive to experience any of these other rights.

[quote]but those who focus on abortion as the sole determining factor of who they vote for aren't doing the country justice because the day to day lives of Americans arent affected by whether or not abortion is illegal.[/quote]
Everyone is affected by abortion. The economy suffers. Morality suffers. Hearts are broken. People slip into depression more easily. An entire generation is robbed of 25%f its population. (and by the way, 25% of the population is robbed of its ability to "live paycheck to paycheck.") These are all things that happen to most everybody in America.

And as far as your insinuation that the pro-life movement does not care about the already-born, that is a horrible myth and strawman that is obviously false to anybody who actually takes the time to observe pro-lifers. It's something people like to say about the pro-life movement in order to put us down. It's usually (not always) done in order to justify being against abortion but still vote democrat. And it's an accusation so false that it has to be considered laughable by the rest of us.

In reality, members of the pro-life movement are usually among the most social justice-conscious people in the world. A lot of people who are opposed to the pro-life movement like to talk about helping the poor. Pro-lifers just do it. Why? Because they have a high regard for life, and (gasp) want to defend life from womb to tomb. It's just that we see abortion as, by far, the greatest threat to life.

Regardless of whether a paycheck to paycheck family wants to acknowledge that threat or not.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1424167' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:36 AM']The answer ought to be yes we can work together. As Christians, I think we ought to work in a more holistic way for the betterment of society to promote life in all of its stages.[/quote]"ought to be yes" but isn't.

One problem is people take this issue so very personally that they can't get past their own emotions! My old roommate (pro-choice) and I talked about this ad nauseam. Person A thinks that abortion must be outlawed before even considering any other issue. Person B thinks that other issues outweigh the legality abortion. Both persons A and B would like to see the desire for abortion reduced, but they are so personally insulted by each other that they choose not to even consider working together. Anyone else see pride rearing it's ugly head? I'm not excluding myself here... I know I struggle with pride every day.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1424129' date='Nov 23 2007, 11:35 PM']My point is that the pro-life movement quite often comes off as not caring about anyone but the babies. It may not be true, but reputations speak volumes.[/quote]This is what many pro-choice people believe. In fact, some believe that the pro-life movement only cares until the baby is born, then stops caring.

President Bush recently vetoed a bill that would provide health care for children. Can we stop laughing, step outside of our personal beliefs for a second and try to understand why people might think that way?

There is a huge lack of understanding on both sides.

Edited November 24, 2007 by tgoldson

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1424129' date='Nov 24 2007, 01:35 AM']Never said that.[/quote]
You did say that "for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not."
That implies that people who care about ending abortion somehow aren't real people with real problems. Plenty of staunch pro-life people have had to go through serious ordeals (personal, financial, health, etc.), yet this doesn't make them cease to be pro-life.

[quote]Never said I didnt care about the babies. But they aren't my top priority. Sorry. If that makes you think Im callous, oh well.[/quote]
Well, perhaps you can enlighten us as to what you consider to be top priority over human life.

[quote]I wouldnt be insinuating something unless I saw basis. My point is that the pro-life movement quite often comes off as not caring about anyone but the babies. It may not be true, but reputations speak volumes.
It's okay, i think a lot of what you say is complete bull too. I'm glad the feeling is mutual.[/quote]
Maybe the pro-life movement "comes off" that way if your main source of knowledge about it is the liberal news media on tv, which distorts things so much it's not even funny.
If that is prolifers' "reputation," it speaks mainly about the persistence of the pro-abort propaganda machine, which wishes to smear the character of anyone who dare oppose abortion.

The idea that pro-lifers don't care about women/the poor/anybody once they're born is a total lie. In my area alone, prolifers run a crisis pregnancy center, supports programs that help mothers during pregnancy and after birth, including giving educational activity, sponsors healing retreats for women who have had abortions, and many pro-lifers are also active in other charities helping the needy.

Of course, you won't see much of that reported in the "mainstream" media, nor do you see "prochoicers" doing so much to actively help women with difficult pregnancies.

But, oh well, you see what you want to see.

[quote]I never said everything would be okay. Im upset that most of you will disregard a cantidate because they are pro-choice. I don't think everything is that black and white. Good thing I'm not catholic, but that means I'm allowed to disagree.[/quote]
Why disregard Hitler just because he supports genocide?

I'm sure most of those in 1930s Germany who voted for Hitler didn't do so because they harbored murderous hatred for Jewish people, nor because they thought concentration camps were a nifty idea.
No, most of them thought he would help them have a good job, a prosperous economy, and make the trains run on time. They were just real people for whom the murder of other people simply wasn't that high a priority.

You can disagree all you want, but you're still wrong.
Defending innocent human life should be the highest priority, and both pro-life voters and politicians should make it a higher priority, not lower. Once that happens, maybe we could make some real progress towards ending that abomination.

[Socrates]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424250' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:16 PM']"ought to be yes" but isn't.

One problem is people take this issue so very personally that they can't get past their own emotions! My old roommate (pro-choice) and I talked about this ad nauseam. Person A thinks that abortion must be outlawed before even considering any other issue. Person B thinks that other issues outweigh the legality abortion. Both persons A and B would like to see the desire for abortion reduced, but they are so personally insulted by each other that they choose not to even consider working together. Anyone else see pride rearing it's ugly head? I'm not excluding myself here... I know I struggle with pride every day.[/quote]
If we truly believe abortion to be murder of the innocent, and not merely something vaguely unpleasant, we should indeed be emotional about this issue, and try to make it illegal.

If a "pro-choicer" wants to cooperate in helping with charitable works towards pregnant mothers and such, she's more than welcome! (So long as she's not using it as an opportunity to push abortion.)

Although pro-lifers do indeed do more to genuinely help women than "pro-choicers" (who almost invariably refuse to participate in any services which exclude counseling abortion as a legitimate "choice.")

Should prolifers do work outside politics to help reduce abortion? Heck Yes!

Should prolifers stop fimly speaking out against abortion and abandon the battle to legally protect unborn human life? Heck no!

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424251' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:25 PM']This is what many pro-choice people believe. In fact, some believe that the pro-life movement only cares until the baby is born, then stops caring.

President Bush recently vetoed a bill that would provide health care for children. Can we stop laughing, step outside of our personal beliefs for a second and try to understand why people might think that way?

There is a huge lack of understanding on both sides.[/quote]
And some apparently "believe" that an unborn baby is just a clump of cells.

I'm not sure what President Bush really has to do with anything, but are you implying that pro-lifers must support every bill granting more federal money to health care or welfare?

Seems a very odd stance for a libertarian.

There's a difference between increasing federal funding of healthcare, etc. and caring for people.
Looks like the old liberal line that if you are against a federal tax-and-spend "solution" to something, you are heartless and don't care. (Ok, this is vearing off-topic.)

Edited November 25, 2007 by Socrates

[XIX]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424251' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:25 PM']President Bush recently vetoed a bill that would provide health care for children. Can we stop laughing, step outside of our personal beliefs for a second and try to understand why people might think that way?[/quote]
Easy. President Bush doesn't think that using taxpayer money to provide for healthcare is the best way to help the children. Or maybe he thinks there are other things he can spend the money on. I'm not saying that I necesarily agree with the President's veto, but from a Catholic perspective, it's a legitimately debateable point. Abortion is not.

Maybe Bush really doesn't care about other peoples' health. I don't know his motives. I do know that a vote against health care does not necesarily equal a vote against the poor. These things cost money, and it's entirely possible that this kind of program would do more damage than good.

[Mercy me]

All this is fine and good but how about doing something to promote adoption and remove the stigma of giving a child up for adoption.

Often women have abortions because they are afraid and feel that they have no other choice. Like it or not there is a stigma with not keeping your baby. How about removing that.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424251' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:25 PM']This is what many pro-choice people believe. In fact, some believe that the pro-life movement only cares until the baby is born, then stops caring.

President Bush recently vetoed a bill that would provide health care for children. Can we stop laughing, step outside of our personal beliefs for a second and try to understand why people might think that way?

There is a huge lack of understanding on both sides.[/quote]

That bill would have provided universal health care for children, even for children who were already covered by private insurance. That was not what the CHIP program was created for. That would effectively cut coverage for the poor kids who truly needed it and was simply pandering to the middle and upper class vote.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424376' date='Nov 24 2007, 08:25 PM']If we truly believe abortion to be murder of the innocent, and not merely something vaguely unpleasant, we should indeed be emotional about this issue, and try to make it illegal.

If a "pro-choicer" wants to cooperate in helping with charitable works towards pregnant mothers and such, she's more than welcome! (So long as she's not using it as an opportunity to push abortion.)

Although pro-lifers do indeed do more to genuinely help women than "pro-choicers" (who almost invariably refuse to participate in any services which exclude counseling abortion as a legitimate "choice.")

Should prolifers do work outside politics to help reduce abortion? Heck Yes!

Should prolifers stop fimly speaking out against abortion and abandon the battle to legally protect unborn human life? Heck no![/quote]Okay - let's stay on topic - I was talking about providing services for [i]parents[/i] to promote the culture of life - the example I gave earlier was affordable health care on college campuses. I never suggested that a prolifer should work at a place that counsels on abortion or that a prochoicer should work at a place that refuses to.

FFL says "Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy."

MercyMe also gave some [b]great[/b] examples!

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424376' date='Nov 24 2007, 08:25 PM']And some apparently "believe" that an unborn baby is just a clump of cells.[/quote]Well they are. So are you. So am I. What they fail to realize is that we are all "clumps of cells" that have had life breathed into us by God. It is a failure in understanding that requires education.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424376' date='Nov 24 2007, 08:25 PM']I'm not sure what President Bush really has to do with anything, but are you implying that pro-lifers must support every bill granting more federal money to health care or welfare?[/quote]This was covered by another response. Remember that I'm talking about perceptions here - if we understand why they feel the way they do we might stand a chance at reaching them.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424376' date='Nov 24 2007, 08:25 PM']Seems a very odd stance for a libertarian.

There's a difference between increasing federal funding of healthcare, etc. and caring for people.
Looks like the old liberal line that if you are against a federal tax-and-spend "solution" to something, you are heartless and don't care. (Ok, this is vearing off-topic.)[/quote]This is not about personal beliefs, but rather trying to see things from someone else's point of view. Don't get this confused with charity or watering down our faith to avoid offending someone. It's all about changing hearts and changing minds.

There are a lot of people that are truly ignorant to the horrible impact that abortion has on all of society.

Their attitude reminds me of the one depicted in the movie Amazing Grace - about colonial England and the abolition of the slave trade. Most people back then wore blinders to the evils of the slave trade because (1) they were profiting from it and (2) they didn't have an understanding of what was really happening to the Africans. I know the situations are fundamentally very different, but I think many pro-choice people are (1) concerned about cost and (2) unaware that killing the unborn has a huge detrimental effect on all involved. Regarding the cost issue, it's not necessarily the cost on society but the individual cost of raising a child and whether people are "ready" to do so. Regarding the detrimental effects, many people are still unaware of [url="http://www.pregnancy-options.org/pas.shtml"]PAS[/url] as a real psychological issue. (It doesn't help that some pro-choicers act like we invented PAS to further our cause.) They also fail to realize the killing a child also kills a mother, a father, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, etc. I could go on... but this is becoming increasingly tangential.

[Socrates]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424522' date='Nov 25 2007, 09:59 AM']Okay - let's stay on topic - I was talking about providing services for [i]parents[/i] to promote the culture of life - the example I gave earlier was affordable health care on college campuses. I never suggested that a prolifer should work at a place that counsels on abortion or that a prochoicer should work at a place that refuses to.[/quote]
It wasn't really clear exactly what you were referring to in the post.

I'm sure this is not what you were talking about, but a lot of left-leaning people say that pro-lifers should should stop focusing on outlawing abortion, but instead work together on things they can find "common ground" with "choicers" on, like helping the poor.
Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I'm just noting that "controversial" positions should not be abandoned in the name of "common ground."

[quote]FFL says "Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy."

MercyMe also gave some [b]great[/b] examples!

Well they are. So are you. So am I. What they fail to realize is that we are all "clumps of cells" that have had life breathed into us by God. It is a failure in understanding that requires education.[/quote]
While I'm sure there is probably an amount of genuine ignorance out there, quite a few "pro-choicers" willfully blind themselves to the truth, dismissing straight out the idea that a fetus is a human person with a right to life as "ignorant" or even "idiotic," and act horrified that an educated person could possibly harbor such a backwards view.
They seem to have no interest in listening to facts that contradict their own "enlightened" "liberated" ideology.

I think that where there is an atheistic or godless mindset, it is hard to cultivate a culture of life. In such a mindset, human life has no intrinsic value.

[quote]This was covered by another response. Remember that I'm talking about perceptions here - if we understand why they feel the way they do we might stand a chance at reaching them.

This is not about personal beliefs, but rather trying to see things from someone else's point of view. Don't get this confused with charity or watering down our faith to avoid offending someone. It's all about changing hearts and changing minds.

There are a lot of people that are truly ignorant to the horrible impact that abortion has on all of society.

Their attitude reminds me of the one depicted in the movie Amazing Grace - about colonial England and the abolition of the slave trade. Most people back then wore blinders to the evils of the slave trade because (1) they were profiting from it and (2) they didn't have an understanding of what was really happening to the Africans. I know the situations are fundamentally very different, but I think many pro-choice people are (1) concerned about cost and (2) unaware that killing the unborn has a huge detrimental effect on all involved. Regarding the cost issue, it's not necessarily the cost on society but the individual cost of raising a child and whether people are "ready" to do so. Regarding the detrimental effects, many people are still unaware of [url="http://www.pregnancy-options.org/pas.shtml"]PAS[/url] as a real psychological issue. (It doesn't help that some pro-choicers act like we invented PAS to further our cause.) They also fail to realize the killing a child also kills a mother, a father, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, etc. I could go on... but this is becoming increasingly tangential.[/quote]
Those are good points. However, like I said, I think respect for the sacredness of human life must be cultivated before we can make genuine progress. Otherwise, the rightness or wrongness of abortion becomes ultimately subjective.
For instance, while it is good to point out the health and psychological risks of abortion, one can also find stories by pro-abortion women of how they were glad they had an abortion.
As long as the focus is "me-centered," it is hard to show how abortion is objectively wrong. It becomes a subjective thing.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Socrates

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]You did say that "for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not."
That implies that people who care about ending abortion somehow aren't real people with real problems.[/quote]
That's a poorly constructed argument, and you know it.

[quote]Maybe the pro-life movement "comes off" that way if your main source of knowledge about it is the liberal news media on tv, which distorts things so much it's not even funny.
If that is prolifers' "reputation," it speaks mainly about the persistence of the pro-abort propaganda machine, which wishes to smear the character of anyone who dare oppose abortion.[/quote]
That's all lovely, except the "liberal news media" isn't where I get this idea from. It's from my own observations here and elsewhere and my own experience.

[quote]Why disregard Hitler just because he supports genocide?[/quote]Can't escape the usual Hitler reference. That has nothing to do with the point I made. You only see it in black and white. Some people who are pro-choice aren't for abortion, they are for people being able to choose. Others don't care enough. The point is, people aren't automatically evil and useless because they are pro-choice.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424376' date='Nov 24 2007, 08:25 PM']I'm not sure what President Bush really has to do with anything, but are you implying that pro-lifers must support every bill granting more federal money to health care or welfare?[/quote]
President Bush has everything to do with this. This is what I originally talking about. Bush was elected by the Christian right because he promised to help the pro-life movement. My point is that he hasnt, and it's a wasted vote to vote for a politician just because they are pro-life. You can't argue "well at least they aren't pushing for more abortions" because that logic is faulty. Why is it okay to elect a "pro-life" Republican who doesn't do anything for the cause, but it's not okay to elect another politician who is pro-choice, but doesn't believe that abortion is a major issue thus doesn't focus on it? The point is, it's not fair to say that because someone is pro-choice, they are bad. Pro-life politicians make all the promises they can think of in order to get elected, but that doesnt mean they can do anything. That's why it's stupid to make abortion the deciding factor. There isnt much anyone can do about it. [b]It has to be taken care of among the people, not by law makers[/b]. So why not consider other issues that can actually be taken care of by the government?