Women Priests

[mortify]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1427352' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:00 PM']there isn't an issue. not within the church, anyway. John paul said, in ordinatio sacerdotalis[/quote]

Ty alpha but I've heard people say that this does not forever close the issue, and that in the future there may be female priests.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427522' date='Nov 30 2007, 07:44 PM']I’ve read the book, I am familiar with the stories and the authors. I never said that I do not believe in the Jesus of the Scriptures, it may be that I am not as enamored or compelled by these writings as you are but there is very little I do not believe in. Anybody who has ever related to me on Phatmass knows that I would never stop anyone from believing…..until they thought that they were believing in something that they thought was more than a belief.[/quote]What is your definition of "belief" - it seems to be "flimsy nonsense that some idiots think is true".

[quote]Some religious organizations are not looking for evidence to ordain women to be priests. I think that some authorities prefer to remain dominated by males. They are faithfully playing this rule by a book, which as I mention earlier, is both primitive and archaic. If this book was written any earlier, I can imagine that some religious organizations would be relegated to dragging women behind from their hair.[/quote]There is no evidence to be looked at, we "play" by Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching of the Church - nothing in any of that shows women as priests. We don't innovate, we follow the Faith as handed to us by our spiritual mothers and fathers.

[quote]There is also much speculation as to what Jesus’ existence and what his original intentions actually entailed as compared to what was exactly inscribed over 35 years later after his death.[/quote]
How about we look at Jesus existence and His actions - what evidence did you see? The argument from silence is not valid.

[quote]How woman were looked upon and perceived in the time of Jesus’ existence is also a concern and consideration in this matter.[/quote]
How did Jesus view women?

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote]Much has changed for women since these primitive times and this includes the right to be perceived in an equal light.[/quote]
All are equal in Christ, but not everyone has the same role. The lay-priesthood is just as important, if not more so at times, than the ordained priesthood.

[quote]It is not because some feminist movement is demanding it; it is because we have eventually learned to understand the Truth that women deserve it.[/quote]
Deserve what? Is the priesthood a prize to be awarded?

[quote]And Truth will always preside over one’s belief or faith.[/quote]
To you faith and belief are opposed to truth. For us, Faith and belief ARE Truth.

[quote]Many religions have been using this faith as an excuse and many faithful women have been surrendering to such faith because they are taugh that faith can not and should not be reasoned with.[/quote]
Such nonsense. People can reason and completely disagree with your view.

[quote]Not only male and female priests but cardinals, elders, apostles, bishops, prophets, anyone can and should offer something in the areas of spirituality if one will only allow it.[/quote]
One doesn't need a title to offer something in the area of spirituality. You seem to be claiming that without a title, a person is worthless. To the Catholic Christian it is quite the opposite, the title's are secondary to the dignity of the individual person - all human persons have inherent dignity made in the image and likeness of God.

[quote]So this is what you are concerned about? Preserving an outmoded faith and tradition at the expense of a woman’s respectable rights to life and living?[/quote] So not being a priest deprives a woman from life and living? This is absurdity beyond reason.

[quote]Lol. I can’t imagine them becoming any more strange and convoluted then what many religions are already proposing. The concept of ordaining women as priests is not a radical or strange idea. On the contrary, I believe it is a Natural, considerate one.[/quote]Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb? Why don't we just get rid of the priesthood all together, and burn the outmoded archaic text of the Bible while we're at it?

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clement writes: What is your definition of "belief" - it seems to be "flimsy nonsense that some idiots think is true".[/quote]
I should be the only Phatmass member diagnosed with morbid obesity with all the words members put in my mouth.

Beliefs are thoughts, ideas and concepts that anyone can collect, compare, reason and knowingly conclude to a Truth or an UnTruth. Beliefs aren’t meant to romanced, preserved or favored they are meant to be resolved one way or another.

[quote]Pope Clement writes:There is no evidence to be looked at, we "play" by Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching of the Church - nothing in any of that shows women as priests. We don't innovate, we follow the Faith as handed to us by our spiritual mothers and fathers.[/quote]

And it is clear that the rules of this “game” have been incompletely copied from an unreachable resource, in favor of a male dominated “playing” field.

[quote]Pope Clement writes:How about we look at Jesus existence and His actions - what evidence did you see?[/quote]

I see a group of devoted authors who are attempting an agenda to depict what they would like others to believe is the perfect life of a perfect man who lived 12,045 days but have only roughly, obliquely accounted for 373.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Deserve what? Is the priesthood a prize to be awarded?[/quote]
No but life and the choice and opportunity for living it, is the award that should be afforded. There are still some religions that are not affording this opportunity and are delegating weak, narrow-minded consolation prizes.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: To you faith and belief are opposed to truth. For us, Faith and belief ARE Truth.[/quote]
Then you are completely misunderstanding the ideas of faith and belief and how they qualify towards Truth and Untruth. You may want to revisit and re-examine these concepts.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Such nonsense. People can reason and completely disagree with your view.[/quote]
And people can completely disagree with any particular religion’s view. Can you imagine how many females over the decades have converted from a relgion because faithful (not Truthful) assumption has discouraged and denied one from a particular position? Can you imagine how many women have pursued their own ministry in another religion that was more accepting and tolerant of women applying for religious leadership opportunities?

[quote]Pope Clement writes: One doesn't need a title to offer something in the area of spirituality.[/quote]
Then let us dismiss them altogether.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: You seem to be claiming that without a title, a person is worthless.[/quote]
No, I seem to be indicating that without a title a person may become unrecognizable.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: To the Catholic Christian it is quite the opposite, the title's are secondary to the dignity of the individual person - all human persons have inherent dignity made in the image and likeness of God.[/quote]
Until that human is recognized as a woman who wants to conduct a mass or other ceremonial procession.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: So not being a priest deprives a woman from life and living? This is absurdity beyond reason. Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb?[/quote]
The want and desire is not mine to decide. It is for the purpose and desire of the individual who encourages the beliefs of their inherit religion that must decide if this lifestyle is purposeful to their existence.

[color="#000080"]Pope Clement writes:Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb? Why don't we just get rid of the priesthood all together, and burn the outmoded archaic text of the Bible while we're at it?[/color]

Though I realize that your over-reaction was meant to be sarcastic you are addressing someone who believes that everyone has a Bible in and around them that would be worth writing and sharing with others. The cherishable book that was written centuries ago is really starting to show its age and has designated itself as a solid period piece.

I also believe that organized religion does not have the authority or the qualifications to teach individuals purpose and that this search and understanding is best realized and accomplished by the individual.

The segregated churches, temples, synagogues and halls seem to not be about GOD or the irrelevant worship of a deity that doesn’t require it but it seems to be all about the people who frequent them.

Edited December 1, 2007 by carrdero

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

This is why you are not a Catholic, do not understand Catholicism, and cannot speak for Catholicism. How can you claim to know what we should or should not do when 1)you do not share our faith 2)do not belong to our organization 3)do not understand our organization 4)do not understand our beliefs 5)do not recognize that Catholic priesthood is in service of the laity not above it 6)that Catholic priesthood is intrinsically linked to fatherhood 7)don't care about our Church or it's members except to transform us to your personal judgments 8)do not recognize the sources we consider authoritative and binding

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427748' date='Dec 1 2007, 10:33 AM']I should be the only Phatmass member diagnosed with morbid obesity with all the words members put in my mouth.

Beliefs are thoughts, ideas and concepts that anyone can collect, compare, reason and knowingly conclude to a Truth or an UnTruth. Beliefs aren’t meant to romanced, preserved or favored they are meant to be resolved one way or another.
And it is clear that the rules of this “game” have been incompletely copied from an unreachable resource, in favor of a male dominated “playing” field.
I see a group of devoted authors who are attempting an agenda to depict what they would like others to believe is the perfect life of a perfect man who lived 12,045 days but have only roughly, obliquely accounted for 373.
No but life and the choice and opportunity for living it, is the award that should be afforded. There are still some religions that are not affording this opportunity and are delegating weak, narrow-minded consolation prizes.
Then you are completely misunderstanding the ideas of faith and belief and how they qualify towards Truth and Untruth. You may want to revisit and re-examine these concepts.
And people can completely disagree with any particular religion’s view. Can you imagine how many females over the decades have converted from a relgion because faithful (not Truthful) assumption has discouraged and denied one from a particular position? Can you imagine how many women have pursued their own ministry in another religion that was more accepting and tolerant of women applying for religious leadership opportunities?
Then let us dismiss them altogether.

No, I seem to be indicating that without a title a person may become unrecognizable.

Until that human is recognized as a woman who wants to conduct a mass or other ceremonial procession.

The want and desire is not mine to decide. It is for the purpose and desire of the individual who encourages the beliefs of their inherit religion that must decide if this lifestyle is purposeful to their existence.

[color="#000080"]Pope Clement writes:Why would you want anyone to be a priest, since the whole idea of priesthood is ridiculous, outmoded, and dumb? Why don't we just get rid of the priesthood all together, and burn the outmoded archaic text of the Bible while we're at it?[/color]

Though I realize that your over-reaction was meant to be sarcastic you are addressing someone who believes that everyone has a Bible in and around them that would be worth writing and sharing with others. The cherishable book that was written centuries ago is really starting to show its age and has designated itself as a solid period piece.

I also believe that organized religion does not have the authority or the qualifications to teach individuals purpose and that this search and understanding is best realized and accomplished by the individual.

The segregated churches, temples, synagogues and halls seem to not be about GOD or the irrelevant worship of a deity that doesn’t require it but it seems to be all about the people who frequent them.[/quote]

The ultimate question is - why do you care whether Catholics ordain women priests or not, since it will not have any effect on you positively or negatively, but will destroy our Faith as we understand it? Is your goal to destroy our faith, since you see it as "archaic, backward, outmoded, etc"?

The religion you espouse is about individualism and selfishness, our Faith is not about 'me', it's about Him; it's about community and selflessness. Our world views can never live in harmony - the twain shall never meet.

Edited December 2, 2007 by PopeClementI(MorClemis)

[Socrates]

This is why I've had Carderro on "ignore" for some time now. He disregards equally both religious tradition and reason and logic, interested only in airing his own opinions, which often are completely irrational.

It seems that while Carderro sees religion as merely a matter of "personal truth," forming his own private religion of "Patrickism," and rejecting all precepts of "traditional religions," he somehow sees fit to impose the precepts of "Patrickism" upon the Catholic Faith.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='mortify' post='1427571' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:28 PM']Ty alpha but I've heard people say that this does not forever close the issue, and that in the future there may be female priests.[/quote]

In 1994 a bishop sent a letter to the CDF asking whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was to be held definitively by the people and whether this position was infallible. Ratzinger responded:


"This teaching REQUIRES (emphasis mine) definitive assent, since, founded on teh written Word of God and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium, 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf Luke 22.32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal DECLARATION (again, emphasis mine), explicitly stating WHAT IS TO BE HELD ALWAYS, EVERYWHERE, AND BY ALL, (I'm taking a lot of liberties with the emphasis), as belonging to the deposit of faith."


that is a direct quote from the letter. it's ALL been declared infallibly by the magisterium.

I have more but I really don't feel like running upstairs and then typing it all out. Look on the Vatican's website for Inter Insigniores (an encyclical by Paul VI).

Also, JPII says, "In order to remove all doubt" when he writes Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It is infallible and closes the issue. the end.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427984' date='Dec 1 2007, 10:59 PM']This is why you are not a Catholic, do not understand Catholicism, and cannot speak for Catholicism. How can you claim to know what we should or should not do when 1)you do not share our faith 2)do not belong to our organization 3)do not understand our organization 4)do not understand our beliefs 5)do not recognize that Catholic priesthood is in service of the laity not above it 6)that Catholic priesthood is intrinsically linked to fatherhood 7)don't care about our Church or it's members except to transform us to your personal judgments 8)do not recognize the sources we consider authoritative and binding
The ultimate question is - why do you care whether Catholics ordain women priests or not, since it will not have any effect on you positively or negatively, but will destroy our Faith as we understand it? Is your goal to destroy our faith, since you see it as "archaic, backward, outmoded, etc"?

The religion you espouse is about individualism and selfishness, our Faith is not about 'me', it's about Him; it's about community and selflessness. Our world views can never live in harmony - the twain shall never meet.[/quote]

hear, hear! JPII also states in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that

"it is a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself."

If the Church ordained women all (and I mean ALL) other teachings would be suspect.

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clement writes: This is why you are not a Catholic, do not understand Catholicism, and cannot speak for Catholicism. How can you claim to know what we should or should not do when 1)you do not share our faith2)do not belong to our organization 3)do not understand our organization 4)do not understand our beliefs 5)do not recognize that Catholic priesthood is in service of the laity not above it 6)that Catholic priesthood is intrinsically linked to fatherhood 7)don't care about our Church or it's members except to transform us to your personal judgments 8)do not recognize the sources we consider authoritative and binding[/quote]
But you are forgetting the understanding that we are assuming to pursue the same Truth about GOD and I have the revelation to offer that GOD is not Catholic.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: The ultimate question is - why do you care whether Catholics ordain women priests or not, since it will not have any effect on you positively or negatively, but will destroy our Faith as we understand it?[/quote]
One doesn’t have to be Catholic to care about all humans who encourage belief systems. I can continue to respect people’s beliefs but there is nothing I can really do with one’s faith.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: Is your goal to destroy our faith, since you see it as "archaic, backward, outmoded, etc"?[/quote]
Faith is neither trust or Truth. It has been known to lead to Untruth, misunderstanding, ambandonment, betrayal, discouragement, disappointment and embarrassment. This is [b][i]part[/i][/b] of the nature of faith which in practice and actuality, never required my assistance.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: The religion you espouse is about individualism and selfishness, our Faith is not about 'me', it's about Him;[/quote]
Actually the pronouns that are mostly utilized in member’s posts are “we” and “us”.
[quote]Pope Clement writes: it's about community and selflessness. Our world views can never live in harmony - the twain shall never meet.[/quote]
It is about humanness and the philosophy of kindness. One’s faith or religion is no excuse to segregate anyone because then one misses the opportunity of understanding and discovering the things that we do have in common.

Edited December 2, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]carrdero writes: There are a few reasons why prejudice exists. Hate, fear and/or ignorance.

I suspect that there may be a combination of both ignorance and fear involved in this issue. That is to say, that if a particular religion announced that they were now accepting women into the priesthood, they would also have to provide a reason why and this explanation may bring even more reproach and criticisms upon a religion. People will start wondering what else the organization is misunderstanding. At the expense of elevating women to their proper human equality (this would include their physical, mental and spiritual abilities and attributes) I feel that the decision to allow women into the priesthood would be a small price to pay and could only be seen as the correct decision to make. I speak from the experienced position of witnessing what women can offer in the areas of spirituality.[/quote]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1428015' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:53 AM']hear, hear! JPII also states in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that

"it is a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself."

If the Church ordained women all (and I mean ALL) other teachings would be suspect.[/quote]
I figured as much.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1427991' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:13 AM']It seems that while Carderro sees religion as merely a matter of "personal truth," forming his own private religion of "Patrickism," and rejecting all precepts of "traditional religions," he somehow sees fit to impose the precepts of "Patrickism" upon the Catholic Faith.[/quote]
Why, do you feel that GOD will be more impressed with me if I was Catholic rather than Patrick?

Edited December 2, 2007 by carrdero

[Norseman82]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1427263' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:07 AM']He did, they are called the evangelists. and the early church fathers[/quote]

She shoots - she scores!

Edited December 2, 2007 by Norseman82

[Apotheoun]

The whole idea of women being made priests sounds docetic to me.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426680' date='Nov 29 2007, 04:54 AM']Since individual’s faith and morals are constantly adjusting to new situations and circumstances, it seems that it is also God’s wills and intentions that also bend to conform to sociological precedence. Some religions have had to "get with the program" but this was only through the magic of revelation or inspiring updated bulletins.[/quote]

So what's next - the 10 commandments being amended by a 2/3 vote of Congress and ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures to allow adultery, stealing, murder, etc.?

No, it is not religions that need to "get with the program", it is the "world".

And instead of seeking God to bend to our will, how about you seeking to bend to His?

Edited December 2, 2007 by Norseman82

[KnightofChrist]

"In this day, we need a Church that is right not when the world is right, but Right when the world is wrong."

Arch Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

[SaintOfVirtue]

OK, frist of all if Jesus ever intended there to be a women preist he would have told his Apostles. Second, if Jesus had actually did ordain women priests he would have started with the Blessed Vrigin Mary. I'm pressed for time so I do not have time to continue further listen to Tim Staples' "Call no women father" tape avaible from St. Joseph Comunications.

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' post='1433111' date='Dec 11 2007, 09:36 PM']OK, frist of all if Jesus ever intended there to be a women preist he would have told his Apostles. Second, if Jesus had actually did ordain women priests he would have started with the Blessed Vrigin Mary. I'm pressed for time so I do not have time to continue further listen to Tim Staples' "Call no women father" tape avaible from St. Joseph Comunications.[/quote]

P.S. I did not read all the posts!

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1428224' date='Dec 2 2007, 03:37 PM']The whole idea of women being made priests sounds docetic to me.[/quote]

Whoa, good call. That's quite a jam-packed statement!

[prose]

For friend looking this up.

[carrdero]

[quote]SaintOfVirtue writes: OK, frist of all if Jesus ever intended there to be a women preist he would have told his Apostles.[/quote]

Jesus may have told the apostles but they may not have agreed or even had a reason to write it down. Jesus never had the opportunity to proof read and edit his own words (what with Him being dead for 30 years). Jesus may have not existed in the capacity in which the Biblical authors presented Him.

[quote]SaintOfVirtue writes: Second, if Jesus had actually did ordain women priests he would have started with the Blessed Vrigin Mary.[/quote]

If he wanted to ordain male priests he would have started with the Sacred Father Joseph.

Third, you seem to be under the impression that everything written in the Bible is True.

Edited December 16, 2007 by carrdero