Women Priests

[prose]

I see this topic coming up over and over again on here.

Can someone please explain to me why (those who want it) it is such a big deal?

I guess since I don't oppose there only being men as priests that I don't understand.

So the topic for debate is not whether women should or should not be allowed to be priests, but rather why it is a big deal either way (particularly for those arguing that it should be allowed).

[Anthony]

[quote name='prose' post='1427057' date='Nov 29 2007, 10:35 PM']I see this topic coming up over and over again on here.

Can someone please explain to me why (those who want it) it is such a big deal?

I guess since I don't oppose there only being men as priests that I don't understand.

So the topic for debate is not whether women should or should not be allowed to be priests, but rather why it is a big deal either way (particularly for those arguing that it should be allowed).[/quote]

Its not an issue of should women be allowed to be priests. There is no way women can be priests because the Church doesn't have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='prose' post='1427057' date='Nov 29 2007, 11:35 PM']I see this topic coming up over and over again on here.

Can someone please explain to me why (those who want it) it is such a big deal?

I guess since I don't oppose there only being men as priests that I don't understand.

So the topic for debate is not whether women should or should not be allowed to be priests, but rather why it is a big deal either way (particularly for those arguing that it should be allowed).[/quote]
It is a big deal for feminists who think they have a "right" to be a priest. Its all about them, not God.

[Spamity Calamity]

It comes up alot here because this is primarily an American forum. Americans think that if they complain enough at the church it will change. The Catholic church is bigger than America and its feminist whims.

[prose]

But I don't understand WHY. I understand that they would like women priests or whatever, but why? What is the reasoning?

We are constantly being asked why not, I would like to know why?

What changes do they think will happen in the Church if it ever happened (which it won't).

Would they become Catholic? If not, why bother debating this subject?

[LouisvilleFan]

I like to joke that if the Church allowed female priests, then it would be perfect, and Jesus would be out of business

[dandy777]

[quote name='prose' post='1427314' date='Nov 30 2007, 06:46 PM']But I don't understand WHY. I understand that they would like women priests or whatever, but why? What is the reasoning?

We are constantly being asked why not, I would like to know why?

What changes do they think will happen in the Church if it ever happened (which it won't).

Would they become Catholic? If not, why bother debating this subject?[/quote]


most probably just for the fun of seeing the Church bowing its authority to the modern feminist thinking.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

It's an interesting question. I think that most see it as an equality issue. Men can do it and women can't; this is seen as unjust. Aside from this, an all male priesthood connotates exclusion on account of gender. LOL...and in this day and age, when equality means 'sameness', this just doesn't fly.

So, it's a big deal, on the 'pro women ordination side, becuase it appears sexist and unfair.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1427265' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:10 AM']It is a big deal for feminists who think they have a "right" to be a priest. Its all about them, not God.[/quote]
Interesting point about "rights." As CS Lewis observed in [i]The Great Divorce[/i], if we insist on our "rights" we'll end up in Hell. Anything good we have is a gift from God, which we receive not because we deserve it but because of His mercy.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1427359' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:06 PM']I like to joke that if the Church allowed female priests, then it would be perfect, and Jesus would be out of business [/quote]

?

[Jaime]

[quote name='prose' post='1427314' date='Nov 30 2007, 11:46 AM']But I don't understand WHY. I understand that they would like women priests or whatever, but why? What is the reasoning?

We are constantly being asked why not, I would like to know why?

What changes do they think will happen in the Church if it ever happened (which it won't).

Would they become Catholic? If not, why bother debating this subject?[/quote]

It would be helpful to read [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html"]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/url]

[quote]The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."[/quote]

that's just a snippet

[carrdero]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1427265' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:10 AM']It is a big deal for feminists who think they have a "right" to be a priest. Its all about them, not God.[/quote]
I disagree and am completely surprised by your comments on this topic, cmotherofpirl.

I am (somewhat) familiar with the different indoctrination methods of different denominations and one has to admit; that the training and curriculum to become a Catholic priest is very extensive and thorough and a decision that no man (and I would also assume any women) would not take lightly or pridefully. Even if the celibacy rules were applied to women, it would still be a challenging commitment, one that every women may not see to a satisfying conclusion. The women who sincerely want to endure and embrace this lifestyle are women who truly feel that this calling will become not only a value to their lives but feel that they can successfully touch an affect other’s lives.

Edited December 1, 2007 by carrdero

[Technicoid]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427542' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:22 PM']I disagree and am completely surprised by your comments on this topic, cmotherofpirl.

I am (somewhat) familiar with the different indoctrination methods of different denominations and one has to admit; that the training and curriculum to become a Catholic priest is very extensive and thorough and a decision that no man (and I would also assume any women) would not take lightly or pridefully. Even if the celibacy rules were applied to women, it would still be a challenging commitment, one that every women may not see to a satisfying conclusion. The women who sincerely want to endure and embrace this lifestyle are women who truly feel that this calling will become not only a value to their lives but feel that they can successfully touch an affect other’s lives.[/quote]

The problem is that these people see the priesthood as being equal to the ordained ministries in other denominations. It simply isn't. In the Protestant world, being baptized gives you all the authorization you need to seek out ordained ministry. In the Catholic world, it is a different affair. We share the common priesthood of the baptized, but the ordained priesthood is a different sacrament entirely and one based upon the model of Christ's behavior. He never ordained women. The apostles after Him did not ordain women. 2000 years of Church tradition has upheld this mode based upon Christ's decision.

You could argue that He did so soleley because He was bound by the constraints of the contemporary culture, but that would be to deny the obvious fact that He frequently went against the norm. In addition, the priesthood is not the only form of leadership in the Church, and one would be blind if he or she didn't notice the predominance of women in leadership positions at the parish level, and frequently at the diocesan level.

If you want to explore the basis for the doctrine, I recommend Sr. Sara Butler's book, [i]The Catholic Priesthood and Women[/i].

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427542' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:22 PM']The women who sincerely want to endure and embrace this lifestyle are women who truly feel that this calling will become not only a value to their lives but feel that they can successfully touch an affect other’s lives.[/quote]

If women feel a calling to serve God in an "ordained" (for lack of a better word) way, then they can do it by becoming nuns. Their lives are also challenging and present a way to serve God and His people in an "official" capacity.

As a side note, I have never found a woman who has argued for women's ordination that wanted to be a priest herself. I'm sure they're out there, but I haven't run into them yet. And it seems that the majority of the ones I've talked to use "fairness" as their clarion call.

[carrdero]

[quote]Technicoid writes: The problem is that these people see the priesthood as being equal to the ordained ministries in other denominations. It simply isn't.[/quote]
This I understand. I have discussed this topic with a few friends that wanted to become part of the Catholic priesthood and when they researched the time and the commitment involved there were a few issues that they thought that they would have trouble accepting or qualifying for.

[quote]Technicoid writes: We share the common priesthood of the baptized, but the ordained priesthood is a different sacrament entirely and one based upon the model of Christ's behavior. He never ordained women. The apostles after Him did not ordain women. 2000 years of Church tradition has upheld this mode based upon Christ's decision.

You could argue that He did so soleley because He was bound by the constraints of the contemporary culture, but that would be to deny the obvious fact that He frequently went against the norm. In addition, the priesthood is not the only form of leadership in the Church, and one would be blind if he or she didn't notice the predominance of women in leadership positions at the parish level, and frequently at the diocesan level.[/quote]

I do not think we could possibly ever know the true vision and intentions that Christ had for a church or it’s members (if he even had one at all). One could also argue that the Bible only depicts the aspects of Christ’s life based on what biased authors only wanted to reveal to the faithful. The rest may have been edited or added later by other religious figures and scholars who may have disagreed or felt that such doctrines were inconsistent with later teachings of the church. Tradition is not infallible and it must begin somewhere. There is just not enough evidence that it began or did not begin with Jesus and at the risk of damaging the respect and consideration to every woman, I believe that a book written prominently by men, written at a time when women were not considered men's equal is not a very clear indicator of what God's purpose was for women in regards to the structure and stability of the church's early beginnings.

Edited December 1, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Elizabeth_Jane writes: If women feel a calling to serve God in an "ordained" (for lack of a better word) way, then they can do it by becoming nuns. Their lives are also challenging and present a way to serve God and His people in an "official" capacity.[/quote]

Yes but Jesus did not ordain nuns. The sisterhood seems like just an after thought delegated to women by male religious leaders who probably did not want women to persue the priesthood. 20/20 recently did an expose’ on nuns and they did a fair job exploring the good and the bad about pursuing such a lifestyle.

[quote]Elizabeth_Jane writes: As a side note, I have never found a woman who has argued for women's ordination that wanted to be a priest herself.[/quote]
Neither have I but I still believe the option should be available.


[quote]Elizabeth_Jane writes: I'm sure they're out there, but I haven't run into them yet. And it seems that the majority of the ones I've talked to use "fairness" as their clarion call.[/quote]

There was a thread on prostitution that I read in another religious forum and a forum member had wanted to know “why would a woman want a job like prostitution?” and somebody responded with the retort that women chose prostitution as a profession “because they did not want to work at McDonalds”. Now I am not relating or supporting prostitution to the topic in discussion (nor am I discrediting McDonald's employees) but it does make one wonder that even with the alternative of allowing women to become nuns, there are still some that may only be interested in becoming a priest because they do not want to participate in ministry that is outlined for a nun.

Edited December 1, 2007 by carrdero

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427719' date='Dec 1 2007, 09:07 AM']Yes but Jesus did not ordain nuns. The sisterhood seems like just an after thought delegated to women by male religious leaders who probably did not want women to persue the priesthood.[/quote]
Wasn't it more like the women wanted to follow the male religious orders and they created a seperate sisterhood for them? St. Claire wanted to follow St. Francis, St. Scholastica and St. Benedict...it wasn't a pacifier, it was a sepa rate sort of work.

Female priesthood isn't an "option"--it's a vocation, it's a sacrament, and it's something the Church can't do.
And nuns aren't ordained, anyway, just FYI--that's a topic on another board!

[prose]

So.... Just to be clear I understand, because of everyone supporting female priesthood, only carrdero bothered to give me an answer.

The idea is that women are being (or so they say) spiritually called to be priests (priestesses??) is being squashed by the Church as a human invention, and therefore they are being denied the "right" to live out what their true calling is?

[-I---Love]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1427542' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:22 PM']I disagree and am completely surprised by your comments on this topic, cmotherofpirl.

I am (somewhat) familiar with the different indoctrination methods of different denominations and one has to admit; that the training and curriculum to become a Catholic priest is very extensive and thorough and a decision that no man (and I would also assume any women) would not take lightly or pridefully. Even if the celibacy rules were applied to women, it would still be a challenging commitment, one that every women may not see to a satisfying conclusion. The women who sincerely want to endure and embrace this lifestyle are women who truly feel that this calling will become not only a value to their lives but feel that they can successfully touch an affect other’s lives.[/quote]


These women may sincerely feel they are called to do this...BUT...it still becomes about them and not God. Why? Because God's greatest need and any woman's greatest personal gifts can not be offered by way of a vocation to the priesthood. Therefore they have to create a new path outside of God's need. I do not doubt some of these women's intentions and sentiment...but such good things can lead us to hell. These women are lead astray and in a tricky business of understanding our own spirituality (and psychology) they seek a path w/ misguided help or lack of real spritual direction. Of course others are much more anti-catholic, etc. It seems to me it becomes more of a "want to have this vocation," than "an offering of self in humility to this vocation." There is a big difference.

I concur that equality is often the argument.

[-I---Love]

double

Edited December 1, 2007 by -I---Love