The Scandal Of The Monastic Life

[Starets]

[b]Abba and the Bowman [/b]
A hunter in the desert saw Abba Anthony enjoying himself with the brethren and he was shocked. Wanting to show him that it was necessary sometimes to meet the needs of the brethren, the old man said to him,
"Put an arrow in your bow and shoot it."
So he did. The old man then said,
"Shoot another,"
and he did so. Then the old man said,
"Shoot yet again,"
and the hunter replied,
"If I bend my bow so much I will break it."
Then the old man said to him,
"It is the same with the work of God. If we stretch the brethren beyond measure they will soon break. Sometimes it is necessary to come down to meet their needs."
When he heard these words the hunter was pierced by compunction and, greatly edified by the old man, he went away. As for the brethren, they went home strengthened.

[frateumile]

During the later part of the 19th century, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, Doctor of the Church, at three years of age was described by her mother: "Even Thérèse is anxious to practice mortification.” And Thérèse later wrote: "My God, I will not be a saint by halves. I am not afraid of suffering for Thee.” The "Little Flower", famous for her "little way" and love of God -- hard fasted, wore the cilice and used the 'discipline' vigorously, "scourging herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes," according to one of her biographers.
In the early 20th century, The seers of Fatima said they were told by the angel: "In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for sinners. In this way you will bring peace to our country, for I am its guardian angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, bear and accept with patience the sufferings God will send you." They reported that the idea of making sacrifices was repeated several times by the Virgin Mary. The children wore tight cords around their waist and abstained from drinking water on hot days. The Virgin Mary reportedly told them that God was pleased with their sacrifices and bodily penances.

All the souls are not called from God to the sacrifice of the penance. But those that He calls they are not considered fanatical and masochist. God has only called Himself to the crucifixion and He has been limited to say that who wants to follow Him leaves the things of the world, the house and the affections and he loads the cross on his shoulders. It is useless to deny it: the cross is weight, pain and suffering. If then we are not disposed to admit it it is because we have fear and we are of the lukewarm Christians. For our fortune the Saints did not think it therefore and Our Lord in His infinite Mercy still gives us gifts like this because they can save to us.

[url="http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html"]http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html[/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Frateumile, the passage on St Therese's beating herself until she cried is taken almost word-for-word from Wikipedia. I've already quoted that passage. My problem is that I can't find a more authoritative source.

Secondly, no one is denying that mortification is necessary.

What we are concerned about is the MANNER of mortification that you are advocating. This sort of thing can very easily become a test of one's own endurance rather than genuine penance and a symptom of either self-loathing or pride. Yes, pride.

As Brendan suggests, you may not be very good at a picking up on the nuances in the English language. Perhaps a Phatmasser who speaks your first language could translate.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1438710' date='Dec 27 2007, 03:31 AM']Someone even wrote that God desires mercy,not sacrifice, and that God is a God of love,not self-abuse.[/quote]

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice," is a direct quotation from the Bible.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1438843' date='Dec 27 2007, 12:23 PM']Frateumile, the passage on St Therese's beating herself until she cried is taken almost word-for-word from Wikipedia. I've already quoted that passage. My problem is that I can't find a more authoritative source.

Secondly, no one is denying that mortification is necessary.

What we are concerned about is the MANNER of mortification that you are advocating. This sort of thing can very easily become a test of one's own endurance rather than genuine penance and a symptom of either self-loathing or pride. Yes, pride.

As Brendan suggests, you may not be very good at a picking up on the nuances in the English language. Perhaps a Phatmasser who speaks your first language could translate. [/quote]
I'm pretty sure that St. Therese herself mentions giving herself the discipline in the Story of a Soul, but I'm not positive; I could have read it in the testimonies for her beatification, or perhaps some of her letters. I'll research it and get back to you.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='frateumile' post='1438831' date='Dec 27 2007, 11:53 AM']During the later part of the 19th century, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, Doctor of the Church, at three years of age was described by her mother: "Even Thérèse is anxious to practice mortification.” And Thérèse later wrote: "My God, I will not be a saint by halves. I am not afraid of suffering for Thee.” The "Little Flower", famous for her "little way" and love of God -- hard fasted, wore the cilice and used the 'discipline' vigorously, "scourging herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes," according to one of her biographers.
In the early 20th century, The seers of Fatima said they were told by the angel: "In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for sinners. In this way you will bring peace to our country, for I am its guardian angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, bear and accept with patience the sufferings God will send you." They reported that the idea of making sacrifices was repeated several times by the Virgin Mary. The children wore tight cords around their waist and abstained from drinking water on hot days. The Virgin Mary reportedly told them that God was pleased with their sacrifices and bodily penances.

All the souls are not called from God to the sacrifice of the penance. But those that He calls they are not considered fanatical and masochist. God has only called Himself to the crucifixion and He has been limited to say that who wants to follow Him leaves the things of the world, the house and the affections and he loads the cross on his shoulders. It is useless to deny it: the cross is weight, pain and suffering. If then we are not disposed to admit it it is because we have fear and we are of the lukewarm Christians. For our fortune the Saints did not think it therefore and Our Lord in His infinite Mercy still gives us gifts like this because they can save to us.

[url="http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html"]http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html[/url][/quote]
Actually, the call to penance is universal.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1438852' date='Dec 27 2007, 12:44 PM']"I desire mercy, not sacrifice," is a direct quotation from the Bible.[/quote]
Yes, I know that.

[Lil Red]

*puts on mod hat*

before this thread gets too heated - i'll remind everyone that the Vocation Station is for supporting others in their vocation, and getting support. not for debating or arguing. you wanna do that, you go to the Debate Table.

everyone mind their p's and q's, please, and we'll get along just fine.

[Saint Therese]

My last comment on this thread-
From the Catechism:

1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right,33 by the admission of faults to one's brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one's cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.34

And Our Lady at Fatima :In August of 1917 Our Lady told the children, “pray much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.”
“Many persons,” Sr. Lucia explained, “feeling that the word penance implies great austerities, and not feeling that they have the strength for great sacrifices, become discouraged and continue a life of lukewarmness and sin.” Then she said Our Lord explained to her: “The sacrifice required of every person is the fulfillment of his duties in life and the observance of My law. This is the penance that I now seek and require.”
"Penance, penance, penance!"
This is all I mean to say.

[brendan1104]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1438969' date='Dec 27 2007, 06:26 PM']*puts on mod hat*

before this thread gets too heated - i'll remind everyone that the Vocation Station is for supporting others in their vocation, and getting support. not for debating or arguing. you wanna do that, you go to the Debate Table.

everyone mind their p's and q's, please, and we'll get along just fine. [/quote]