Fallen Away Catholics And Outsiders...

[kafka]

yeah unreal Akalyte! I've done some bad things, but I wouldnt dream of doing that

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='prose' post='1435883' date='Dec 18 2007, 07:51 PM']Some people have no idea what the Eucharist is nor what to believe about it because they have never actually been taught. And these are Catholics.

How often does your priest explain it to the congregation? I think mine touches on it a few times a year and that is it.[/quote]

I read a stat a few years ago that said only 25% of Catholics believe in transubstantion.
Couldn't believe it. I was taught that in [i]first grade[/i]!

[Dave]

If they don't like the taste of the Eucharist, then why go to the trouble of spitting It out and thus committing sacrilege? Why not just not receive? Do they think that receiving Communion is just what you're "supposed to do" when you go to Mass?

[Deb]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1435367' date='Dec 17 2007, 06:13 PM']I come across a lot of fallen away catholics and outsiders who all share the same understanding about religion and the church in general. They think the church is greedy, the dont trust religion, they dont trust the pope (especially Benedict XVI) They tend to all have the same politics (liberal). I come across these kind of people A LOT. I end up debating with them. Many of them have the same old "my church is at home and in my heart" kind of thinking. What is all this madness???[/quote]


Many of those people lead lives that they know to be sinful although, they do not admit that to themselves. It is easier to find fault with the Church then to admit their own faults. If they can turn the church away, they justify their own behavior. Then, they start to search among other religions etc to find a church that fits the rules they want to live by.
Sometimes they are lucky and they find their way back to the truth about themselves and GOD.

[jeffpugh]

I had the same thought, Dave.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Dave' post='1435888' date='Dec 18 2007, 06:02 PM']Do they think that receiving Communion is just what you're "supposed to do" when you go to Mass?[/quote]
Yes.
They do the same as the people in the first few pews...
like lemmings.

[carrdero]

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: The funny thing about "proof" is that it is subject to the eye of the beholder. We cannot prove love, after all, and yet we know it to exist.[/quote]
I believe there is a way to discern and prove love or at least in a way in which the receiver can decide whether it is something that they want to accept in their life.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: Should you refuse to acknowledge that air is necessary to your being, to you then, there is no air and no one will ever dissuade you with any theories, examples, or explanations.[/quote]

Many people take breathing for granted. Unless someone or something reminds one about breathing, it is usually not recognized or considered.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: If you refuse to accept 1+1=2, then you are free to live life with your own equation, but would you be right?[/quote]

Easily proven, as is the fact that people are allowed to refuse Truth. I guess it would depend on how much people rely on mathmatics.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: To think relatively is to deny all absolutes across the spectrum, not just in human relations and experiences but in math and science. Proof of God is science.[/quote]

But unfortunately our individual purpose is not qualified by science nor religion.

Edited December 19, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1435901' date='Dec 18 2007, 09:05 PM']Many of those people lead lives that they know to be sinful although, they do not admit that to themselves. It is easier to find fault with the Church then to admit their own faults. If they can turn the church away, they justify their own behavior. Then, they start to search among other religions etc to find a church that fits the rules they want to live by.
Sometimes they are lucky and they find their way back to the truth about themselves and GOD.[/quote]
I think that could be done without the assistance of a religious organization. This is how Patrickism began. I finally realized that it is not the groups that I am associated with or the place that I go to that GOD will be impressed with, but that it just comes down to me and GOD and that this is and always will be a personal REALationship. No traveling, no complicated doctrine or human-made rituals, no faith and most importantly, it's free and costs absolutely nothing. I can discuss interests and receive advice pertinent to my life without having to rely on another’s relationships with GOD.

Edited December 19, 2007 by carrdero

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1435998' date='Dec 18 2007, 10:22 PM']I believe there is a way to discern and prove love or at least in a way in which the receiver can decide whether it is something that they want to accept in their life.[/quote]

Ah, but "belief" has no place in an argument about absolutes and quantifiable proof. Should you wish to prove a feeling, love in particular, you will find little help in the realm of the objective.

[quote]Many people take breathing for granted. Unless someone or something reminds one about breathing, it is usually not recognized or considered.[/quote]

Taking air for granted does not make it any less necessary. Nor does denying the existence of air make it any less true. [Not sure from your tone if we actually disagree on this subject.]

[quote]But unfortunately our individual purpose is not qualified by science nor religion.[/quote]

If purpose is left to individuals and thereby relative, then purpose - ultimately the entire value of human dignity - will always be subject to human whims. The purpose of life [u]must[/u] be absolute, else there is no ground for racial equality, sexual equality, or any form of uniform equality and inalienable rights. Without a common, indisputable purpose, humanity is nothing more than the strong dictating and forcing their view of justice on the weak.

[carrdero]

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: Ah, but "belief" has no place in an argument about absolutes and quantifiable proof. Should you wish to prove a feeling, love in particular, you will find little help in the realm of the objective.[/quote]
I believe because I am uncertain of the Truth about Love. I am still examining, comparing and reasoning this concept not only towards my individual purpose but to see if there is a Universal purpose to it as well.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes:If purpose is left to individuals and thereby relative, then purpose - ultimately the entire value of human dignity - will always be subject to human whims.[/quote]

Isn’t that exactly what we are perceiving today? The entire value of human dignity is being defined every day. It sort of like observing the stock market.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: The purpose of life must be absolute, else there is no ground for racial equality, sexual equality, or any form of uniform equality and inalienable rights.[/quote]

GOD created homo-sapiens, not robo-sapiens for individual spirits to inhabit. Without individual purpose, how does one allow for human identity, personality and individuality? What would be the reason to come to a physical existence if one didn’t have a plan or personal agenda to fulfill? My purposes, my ambitions, my desires, my beliefs, my environments, my upbringing, my experiences, my very reason for physically existing are my own and will greatly differ from anyone else’s. It will differ because before I arrived to this physical realm, I planned for this existence. No one purposed this life for me, I chose to live this physical existence at this moment.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: Without a common, indisputable purpose, humanity is nothing more than the strong dictating and forcing their view of justice on the weak.[/quote]

Welcome to planet earth!!

Edited December 19, 2007 by carrdero

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1436041' date='Dec 19 2007, 01:14 AM']No one purposed this life for me, I chose to live this physical existence at this moment.[/quote]

Actually, God chose your life to begin (and your parents at a material level). You had nothing to do with it. And the relativist argument that you create your own purpose is missing the point. Hitler used this type of logic to say handicapped and mentally "dysfunctional" people by nature have no purpose.

What you really seem to be arguing for is a sense of hope, a sustaining of will to be. This is quite different than objective purpose and absolute inherent dignity.

[carrdero]

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: Actually, God chose your life to begin (and your parents at a material level).[/quote]
The concept of human development may be God’s creation. I say “may” because as I understand it, GOD had many helpers in the creation of the universe, this planet, animal species and how the human body operates. But if you believe that GOD sent me to this planet, that GOD purposed this existence for me, I would have to ask you to what extent and reason did He do this?

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: Hitler used this type of logic to say handicapped and mentally "dysfunctional" people by nature have no purpose.[/quote]

I believe that no other human is qualified to judge another entity’s purpose or physical existence. One can speculate all they want but speculation is all it could be.

[quote]PapaHilarious writes: What you really seem to be arguing for is a sense of hope, a sustaining of will to be. This is quite different than objective purpose and absolute inherent dignity.[/quote]
I do not hope, I do, I AM. I cannot exist for what others want or hope me to be (this is assuredly a recipe for disappointment), I can only try to be the best me that I can be.

Edited December 19, 2007 by carrdero

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1435432' date='Dec 17 2007, 07:30 PM']As far as criticisms against the pope go, there's probably an extremely effective/simple response: "How much of the Pope's writings have you read in order to arrive at an informed opinion of him?"[/quote]

I don't know. It might be asking a lot to expect every Catholic to read everything that is penned by a pope. Isn't that why we have bishops and priests?

["Kyrie eleison"]

I am a REVERT. I left because of bad catachesis. We cannot SOLELY rely on our religious classes and church on Sunday to teach us about our faith. The priest last Sunday on his sermon told us that we as parents are the stewards of our children and must show our children the way to Jesus and make sure they know why they believe what they believe.

Needless to say, I attended differing churches and many times went to the altar call as a born-again believer. I really strated believing in all that stuff.... we didn't need Mary, the Pope, etc...etc..... all I know is that I truly and sincerely was searching for God and by his GRACE, he led me back to the Church.

I am a better Catholic for it. Everyday, I teach my kids about the Catholic faith and have even told my son, if he feels that God is calling him to the priesthood, I would be very proud to have a son as a priest.

What gets me are the ex-Catholics who are very vehement against the Church and mock everything about the Church that Jesus founded.

Edited December 19, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1436078' date='Dec 19 2007, 08:27 AM']I am a REVERT. I left because of bad catachesis. We cannot SOLELY rely on our religious classes and church on Sunday to teach us about our faith. The priest last Sunday on his sermon told us that we as parents are the stewards of our children and must show our children the way to Jesus and make sure they know why they believe what they believe.

Needless to say, I attended differing churches and many times went to the altar call as a born-again believer. I really strated believing in all that stuff.... we didn't need Mary, the Pope, etc...etc..... all I know is that I truly and sincerely was searching for God and by his GRACE, he led me back to the Church.

I am a better Catholic for it. Everyday, I teach my kids about the Catholic faith and have even told my son, if he feels that God is calling him to the priesthood, I would be very proud to have a son as a priest.

What gets me are the ex-Catholics who are very vehement against the Church and mock everything about the Church that Jesus founded.[/quote]

Great points. I can feel where you're coming from. My family left the Church before I was born and became Evangelical. It took many years of studying Catholicism and what the Church truly teaches - not what angry, ex-Catholics [u]claim[/u] it does - before I was ever able to see just how much I was missing.

[MissyP89]

I, too, am a revert--which is why I blame angry ex-Catholics on bad catechesis.

I don't think I learned much of anything in my 8 years of CCD, honestly. Basic Trinitarian and Marian stuff, all of the major prayers so well that I could recite them in my sleep, the Gospel, etc, but...

If you had asked me four years ago what my Church taught, it would be a very wishy washy answer about how God loves and forgives us because Jesus died. It didn't matter to me, or to anyone in my CCD class. Almost all of them have fallen away now.

As far as Catholics who don't believe but still receive the Eucharist, nothing makes me more angry/depressed. It happens all the time in my family...when I called one of them on it, they said they didn't care. It's painful to receive with them, all I can do is beg His mercy.

Knowing how bad my catechism was makes me want to strive to educate my children the best I can, if and when I have a family. I never want them to learn the hard way like I did.

Okay, enough angst.

[carrdero]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1436290' date='Dec 19 2007, 08:00 PM']I, too, am a revert--which is why I blame angry ex-Catholics on bad catechesis.

I don't think I learned much of anything in my 8 years of CCD, honestly. Basic Trinitarian and Marian stuff, all of the major prayers so well that I could recite them in my sleep, the Gospel, etc, but...

If you had asked me four years ago what my Church taught, it would be a very wishy washy answer about how God loves and forgives us because Jesus died. It didn't matter to me, or to anyone in my CCD class. Almost all of them have fallen away now.

As far as Catholics who don't believe but still receive the Eucharist, nothing makes me more angry/depressed. It happens all the time in my family...when I called one of them on it, they said they didn't care. It's painful to receive with them, all I can do is beg His mercy.

Knowing how bad my catechism was makes me want to strive to educate my children the best I can, if and when I have a family. I never want them to learn the hard way like I did.

Okay, enough angst. [/quote]
Is there any reason the cirriculum is planned this way? Is there anyway to remedy this? Kids have a lot of time when they are young. This would be the chance to really captivate them with their inherit religion. Do the students who attend Catholic schools receive more in-depth studies?

Edited December 20, 2007 by carrdero

[jeffpugh]

Bumping this up so Rev can see it.

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1436302' date='Dec 19 2007, 08:33 PM']Is there any reason the cirriculum is planned this way? Is there anyway to remedy this? Kids have a lot of time when they are young. This would be the chance to really captivate them with their inherit religion. Do the students who attend Catholic schools receive more in-depth studies?[/quote]

I think Catholic school kids definitely receive a better curriculum. I went to Catholic school grdaes K-8, while my siblings went K-6 and PreK-2, respectively. I know MUCH more about Catholicism than they do. My sister was in sixth or seventh grade CCD (PSR) and she was asking who Peter and Paul were.

In my school, we had religion every day for 45 minutes. Tests almost every week, and projects, like drawing the liturgical calendar, making a model of a certain kind of cross, etc. In seventh grade we had religion "Bees" every week. We went to Mass at least once a month and attended benediction and Confession as a class. Things like prayer in the morning, after lunch, and before we left for the day were common, as were Marian activities during May (like May Crowning) and stuff like that. Sacramental prep was a lot more intense. And since we had class Masses and all-school Masses, we had to take part in those liturgies, so we learned how to be lectors and cantors.

I also taught PSR(CCD), and it's just not the same. The kids aren't focused, and at my parish it's on a Sunday night, so the kids are either still pumped from the weekend or they're tired. They know it's not for a real 'grade' so some hardly try. It's a totally different level of catechesis.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Knowing how bad my catechism was makes me want to strive to educate my children the best I can, if and when I have a family. I never want them to learn the hard way like I did.[/quote]

My son has the best confirmation teacher, even I like to sit in on the class when I get their early to pick him up. She is younger and hip and very inspiring. Many of those who teach are very mundane and boring. I hate to say it, but kids now-a-days need someone to make learning about the faith, interesting and fun.

It definetly has to be reinforced in the home.