Forgiven Former Seminarian

[phatcatholic]

Silverbug,

i would also like to add something to the comments that have already been made. you seem to have the impression that we are out to judge and demean every former Catholic that is at there. this is just not true. we would not even know about these people, nor would we care to comment on them, if they were not actively working against our faith and attempting to bring others away from our Church. what one person does out of ignorance is his own fault. but when he tries to bring others down that similar road, that's when we have objection. and we definitely have objection when they devote entire ministries to "saving" catholics and spreading falsehoods about our faith. would you like it if someone left your church and then started up a ministry so that they could tell other members of your church falsehoods about what you believed?

also, their is a distinction, however minute, that must be made and clarified here. i am largely speaking for myself here--although i may speak for others as well--when i say that i call these ex-catholics "ignorant" NOT for the mere fact that they left the Catholic Church, but b/c these people show thru their testimonies that they never did know what Catholicism teaches about very basic doctrines.

not every ex-catholic is ignorant. i'm sure there are very intelligent people who have left the Church as well. but, when we read some of these testimonies and find out that people left b/c they thought they had to work for their salvation, or b/c they didn't know how to be forgiven, or b/c they had never read the bible before, we have to take objection--b/c these and similar claims are just outright fallacies!!

a big mission of ours here at phatmass is to teach people the TRUTH about Catholicism. so, when we see these types of testimonies we cringe. afterall, many protestants look at ex-catholics as if they are "experts" in Catholicism, like these people had the "inside-track" on what catholicism was "really" like b/c they were Catholic for so long. so these protestants are quick to accept whatever garbage these people say about our Church. and as a person that fights for the Truth of Catholicism, i can't stand for this.

if you were in a similar situation, i doubt you would either. put yourself in our shoes. it is an enlightening experience.....

pax christi and WELCOME TO PHATMASS! :D

phatcatholic

[Silverbug]

Where to begin?

First off, to answer Dave, yes I am an EX-Catholic. I was raised by Catholic parents, attended Catholic school until 8th grade, was baptized,etc.

Laudate--there may be an exodus of people to the catholic church, but i havent seen any evidence of it. According to worldwide census data:

76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian.

This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has

suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year.

52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant.

24.5% are Roman Catholic.

14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase from only 8% in 1990).

1.3% are Jewish.

0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.

The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca. It went from 8,000 in 1990

to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months.

The average worldwide growth rate of all Christian-branded religions are:

Pentecostals + 5.8%

Evangelicals + 3.1%

All Protestants + 1.0%

Roman Catholics - 1.0%

These numbers are from a world census organization-one of the NPO's

I know the growth rate of Catholicism is almost to a standstill--the only growth it is receiving is due to the fact that any newborn baptized catholic is also counted. All of the other Christian religions do not count newborns but only those that make a concious choice to join said organization. So the numbers above are adjusted for population growth.

Sammy--thanks for the kind words--i think i will stick around for a while.

Dust--understood. I agree with your comments--i too believe if you leave one church then start slamming it it is wrong. However, since I left the Catholic church, does that mean i did not have an understanding of what it is? I have studied it in detail--and do not agree with its tenets (AND BEFORE ANYONE STARTS ASKING WHICH ONES AND WHY) are my opinions going to be summarily dismissed as someone who doesnt have a clue about the Catholic faith?

Phatcatholic-Quick question--if i were to tell others of my beliefs and how they differ from the Catholics, and that causes someone to join my church--is THAT working against your faith? I dont mean going to someone and soliciting them door to door, but just in idle conversation, someone asks ME "hey brother, why do you believe the way you do?"

One last question to start this feeding frenzy off right--define "protestant" because i dont think we mean the same thing when I say that.

PS--if we are really gonna start some kind of interfaith posting here please please please lets go one topic at a time:).

[dUSt]

We like one topic at a time too. lol

Just start a new thread with what you'd be willing to discuss with us. I'm curious to know why you left the Church, and more importantly, what you have found in Protestantism that you couldn't find in Catholicism.

Your opinions won't be dismissed as someone who doesn't have a clue about Catholicism--although we'll no doubt clarify Church teaching if you present a distorted view of it.

God bless.

[dUSt]

Phatcatholic-Quick question--if i were to tell others of my beliefs and how they differ from the Catholics, and that causes someone to join my church--is THAT working against your faith? I dont mean going to someone and soliciting them door to door, but just in idle conversation, someone asks ME "hey brother, why do you believe the way you do?"

Why must one use the Catholic Church as a tool to explain their own beliefs? If they're not Catholic, then why must they use Catholic theology to explain what they believe? By doing so, of course it is working against our faith.

I'll freely admit it. When I explain to someone the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, I am working against Protestant theology. Let's cut out the fluff. If you are not Catholic, and are telling people why you are not Catholic, then you are working against the Catholic faith. Vice versa with a Catholic explaining away Protestantism.

God bless.

[M.SIGGA]

Siverbug, so not to treat Protestants as a universal umbrella group, if you don't mind me asking, to which church or community did you leave the Catholic Church?

[Silverbug]

OK first-Dust, i brought up that last comment about talking to others about or against Catholicism in response to Phatmass' comments on his last post. I just wanted to get it in no uncertain terms if comparing my beliefs against the Catholic Church would be interpreted as an attack or a discussion--ill take it as the former.

Let's cut out the fluff. If you are not Catholic, and are telling people why you are not Catholic, then you are working against the Catholic faith-Dust

so these protestants are quick to accept whatever garbage these people say about our Church-phatcatholic

this is ok--i know where we stand, thanks for the cander.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm curious to know why you left the Church, and more importantly, what you have found in Protestantism that you couldn't find in Catholicism. -Dust

Siverbug, so not to treat Protestants as a universal umbrella group, if you don't mind me asking, to which church or community did you leave the Catholic Church?-m.sigga

I left the Church some years ago, simply from rebellion--not against the Catholic Church at that time, but just plain old rebellion of youth. I began to gravitate back in my mid 20's; and with a renewed sense of purpose and belonging i began to investigate the faith with fresh eyes. Not as an obedient boy doing what he is told, but as a man seeking God. As i searched the scriptures, and applied the Catholic faith to the bible, i did not see how they were the same(YES--ill get into what specifically in a sec). I began to go to different Churches, and to explore their beliefs. I never felt quite as "at home" unless I was at a real Mass though. Then I met She who was to become my wife. And she was seeking like I was, although her background was Mormon (NO- I did not become a Mormon). We began to seek together, until we found our church. It was called New Life Center-a Foursquare Gospel Church.

Just the feeling i got when I walked inside--It was like walking into a HUG. There is a foursquare website--i dont know if i can provide links here. Suffice it to say I found my spiritual home and have never left or looked back.

OK-now on to the main course. lets do one thing at a time.

Well start with the Bible. I found 2 Timothy 3:16, and Acts 17:11

These told me to use the Bible to guide me and my life--AND to use it as a way of checking on what i was being taught-to be sure that what i was being taught by priests/pastors/ministers was indeed according to God.

Any problems so far?

[phatcatholic]

silverbug,

first off, let me say that i appreciate the systematic way in which you write, but replying to each individual's post and be keeping the discussion on one topic. this is very helpful in "interfaith dialogue" and i thank you for it.

that said, i would like to address your question:

Phatcatholic-Quick question--if i were to tell others of my beliefs and how they differ from the Catholics, and that causes someone to join my church--is THAT working against your faith? I dont mean going to someone and soliciting them door to door, but just in idle conversation, someone asks ME "hey brother, why do you believe the way you do?"

i think that telling others what you believe is ok. i think it is when you accentuate how those beliefs "differ from Catholicism" that you step into the gray area. even a scenario like that is ok, if for example, you say, "Catholics believe that the Bible, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church have equal authority, whereas i believe that the Bible is the only authority"--that statement is ok. but, when you misrepresent Catholicism, for example, by saying, "I had to leave Catholicism b/c i didn't like how they worshipped Mary" that would be objectionable.

so, essentially, it is all about how you present Catholicism to others. these testimonies from ex-priests often fall into that "objectionable" category i defined above. if you have any similar misunderstandings about Catholicism, hopefully we can charitable and honestly correct them for you. no one is here to attack you silver, i promise. we are here to educate, support, and defend. hopefully your time here will be edifying. i, for one, am glad that you are here

in my next post, i will comment on the role of the Bible and the scripture verses you presented.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[littleflower+JMJ]

The amount of catholics testimonies i have seen about them coming out of the Catholic Church, you guys must be the only "enlightened ones" that understand what the "real" meaning of the Catholic faith is.

HI! welcome to phatmass!! :D

i would recommend reading surprise by truth if you haven't heard or read any conversion stories.

real stories of ppl coming back home, former catholics, protestants, muslims, athiests and jews. you name it!

theres a whole series of them.

surprised by truth 1, 2, 3, 4 click here to order

click here

just wanted to share with you those links because these stories are GREAT!

God bless,

+JMJ

ps. here at phatmass we got lots of conversion stories too! :D so you see, their there, you just got to know where to look! :D

[phatcatholic]

silverbug,

first, your quote, which will be the topic of this post:

Well start with the Bible. I found 2 Timothy 3:16, and Acts 17:11

These told me to use the Bible to guide me and my life--AND to use it as a way of checking on what i was being taught-to be sure that what i was being taught by priests/pastors/ministers was indeed according to God.

Any problems so far?

actually, i was thinking and i realized that the problems, if any, may depend on some clarification on your part. afterall, Catholics too believe that the Bible can and does guide us in our life and that if we do hear something that is anti-biblical that it should not be trusted. however, if you are using these verses to prove that the Bible should be the SOLE rule of faith, then we would have a disagreement.

since i do not want to assume that this is what you believe (which we call Sola Scriptura--"Bible Only"), i will wait on your clarification before i address the verses you cited. i look forward to hearing from you.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Silverbug]

PhatCaholic-

Catholics too believe that the Bible can and does guide us in our life and that if we do hear something that is anti-biblical that it should not be trusted. however, if you are using these verses to prove that the Bible should be the SOLE rule of faith, then we would have a disagreement.

Then it would appear that we shall begin with a disagreement. Sola Scriptura is indeed my belief--

(service)--bounce over to you!

[M.SIGGA]

I'm curious to know why you left the Church, and more importantly, what you have found in Protestantism that you couldn't find in Catholicism. -Dust

Siverbug, so not to treat Protestants as a universal umbrella group, if you don't mind me asking, to which church or community did you leave the Catholic Church?-m.sigga

I left the Church some years ago, simply from rebellion--not against the Catholic Church at that time, but just plain old rebellion of youth. I began to gravitate back in my mid 20's; and with a renewed sense of purpose and belonging i began to investigate the faith with fresh eyes. Not as an obedient boy doing what he is told, but as a man seeking God. As i searched the scriptures, and applied the Catholic faith to the bible, i did not see how they were the same(YES--ill get into what specifically in a sec). I began to go to different Churches, and to explore their beliefs. I never felt quite as "at home" unless I was at a real Mass though. Then I met She who was to become my wife. And she was seeking like I was, although her background was Mormon (NO- I did not become a Mormon). We began to seek together, until we found our church. It was called New Life Center-a Foursquare Gospel Church.

Just the feeling i got when I walked inside--It was like walking into a HUG. There is a foursquare website--i dont know if i can provide links here. Suffice it to say I found my spiritual home and have never left or looked back.

OK-now on to the main course. lets do one thing at a time.

Well start with the Bible. I found 2 Timothy 3:16, and Acts 17:11

These told me to use the Bible to guide me and my life--AND to use it as a way of checking on what i was being taught-to be sure that what i was being taught by priests/pastors/ministers was indeed according to God.

Any problems so far?

Thanks for the reply. So I'm guess Four Square Gospel is sort of like a Non-Denom. church? I left the Catholic Church for a NonDenom and then a Baptist one in my teens and they really showed me an appreciation for Christ that I hadn't seen before, not because I wasn't catechised or reared properly in the faith or because the Catholic Church was lacking in anyway.

When I prayed for God to show me a way out of the lifestyle I was living, it just so happens that two friends, who are Protestants, were there to show me a way out. They never maliciously tried to convert me away with lies or anything like that; I sort of just drifted once I started worshiping/participating with them and their activities. I was going through some major drama and trials at that time and I see it as Jesus calling me at that specific moment in my life so I wouldn't continue on my personal road of depression and maybe destruction. Without that intervention I don't know where I might be today from a Christian perspective.

So as a Catholic that left once, I sort of think I can see where you might be comming from based on what you posted so far. The only difference with my story is that it turned out to be the opposite of yours. I saw the Christian faith from a historical perspective after traveling to Europe, and I discovered the Bible was indeed Catholic after studying it from a totally unbiased point-of-view, and that not meant to say anything about your faith journey.

Since finding faith in Jesus at your new church how has the Lord made an impact on your life? If this question isn't too bold, how has your Christian faith transformed you? What are your feeling towards the (Catholic?) faith of your family? your childhood? Thanks again.

[jmjtina]

Silverbug,

Greetings and welcome to Phatmass.

When I said he was "way off, very way off" I was reading his testimony and reading that indeed he did not understand the faith at all. His main problem was forgiveness, and said it had never been spoken of in the Catholic Church. Now, if you know anything about the Catholic Faith, confession is a biggie.

As for Sola Scriptura, the Catholic Church believes that Scripture and Tradition go hand and hand. Without totally hijacking this thread, we could start another one discussing sola scriptura. The main thing that bugged me about the "testimony" was the apparent lack of knowledge of forgiveness (a seminarian who didn't know about confession is pretty hard to believe) of the Catholic Church. He was stating something that wasn't true: "The catholic church doesn't teach about forgiveness".

John Henry Newman explained 2 Timothy 3:16-17. He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.

The two verses immediately before it state: "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:14–15).

Timothy is told by Paul to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: because Paul himself taught him and two, because he has been educated in the scriputures. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). What this tells me is that it is not only by scripture alone is to guide us but through tradition and oral teaching. And then whose "oral teaching?" Now that's another thread too.

More than anything else, conversing with other brothers and sisters of other faiths helps us not only learn more about our faith and yours, but to grow in charity and community. Hope ya stick around!

Peace and God Bless. :dance:

[Silverbug]

M.Sigga-

Since finding faith in Jesus at your new church how has the Lord made an impact on your life?

Oh my--quite a bit. The Lord has revealed himself to me in many ways--when I was injured at work, and was unable to work, my wife and I decided for her to go to work. The next sunday my wife and I had just placed our lives in the hands of the Savior. We had asked Christ "Lord, we submit to your will--whatever you want us to do--we will follow, please we need your help." An hour after we got home, our neighbor came over(whom we had never met), and offered my wife an interview at her place of employment. The place she was working (call it Store x) was interviewing mon-wed all day. My wife was a high school dropout with no experience in the last 3years(she had been a housewife). My wife was the first interview on monday. The interviewing manager told her there was "just something about you" and canceled all the interviews for the rest of the week and hired her on the spot.

We have had quite a few problems since then, and every time, Christ was there for us. By adhering to the tenets of our Church, we have experienced a renewal in our marriage, our family, and our whole lives.

how has your Christian faith transformed you? It has , simply put--given me JOY in worshipping the Lord. I LOVE going to church services, i enjoy donating my time, and being involved. There is a big emphasis on small group interaction in our church. Like the early christians, who worshipped together in each others' homes in small groups; most of the ministries in out church is structured around small groups. Small groups foster more fellowship, and a deep connection with other christians.

What are your feeling towards the (Catholic?) faith of your family? your childhood?

My childhood was more rote and repitition. Do this do that, etc.. I had attended many different Catholic churches, in a few different states, with little variation. I had not received any instruction as to the mysteries behind the rituals. As i got older, the only way i found more of the REASON for the dogma was my own investigation. As far as my family goes, they are still catholic. We simply agree to disagree.

jmjtina-

Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2).

Agreed-until the bible was finally completed (there is a scrip that goes with this--ill find it)

He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

right--then read acts 17:11-And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to check up on Paul and Silas, to see if they were really teaching the truth.

Which tells me to take that which is taught by tradition and apply it to the scriptures--if they disagree with the scrips then it is a false teaching.

[Dave]

M.Sigga-

Since finding faith in Jesus at your new church how has the Lord made an impact on your life?

Oh my--quite a bit. The Lord has revealed himself to me in many ways--when I was injured at work, and was unable to work, my wife and I decided for her to go to work. The next sunday my wife and I had just placed our lives in the hands of the Savior. We had asked Christ "Lord, we submit to your will--whatever you want us to do--we will follow, please we need your help." An hour after we got home, our neighbor came over(whom we had never met), and offered my wife an interview at her place of employment. The place she was working (call it Store x) was interviewing mon-wed all day. My wife was a high school dropout with no experience in the last 3years(she had been a housewife). My wife was the first interview on monday. The interviewing manager told her there was "just something about you" and canceled all the interviews for the rest of the week and hired her on the spot.

We have had quite a few problems since then, and every time, Christ was there for us. By adhering to the tenets of our Church, we have experienced a renewal in our marriage, our family, and our whole lives.

That's great that the Lord is making an impact on your life! But you didn't need to leave the Catholic Church in order for that to happen.

how has your Christian faith transformed you? It has , simply put--given me JOY in worshipping the Lord. I LOVE going to church services, i enjoy donating my time, and being involved. There is a big emphasis on small group interaction in our church. Like the early christians, who worshipped together in each others' homes in small groups; most of the ministries in out church is structured around small groups. Small groups foster more fellowship, and a deep connection with other christians.

You love going to church services, interacting, and being involved. Well again, that's great, but I get the impression your basing things on feelings. Sometimes in worshipping the Lord we may not exactly FEEL joy. There are times when most of us go through dry spells. Yet that doesn't mean that if we don't feel joy there's something wrong with us.

What are your feeling towards the (Catholic?) faith of your family? your childhood?

My childhood was more rote and repitition. Do this do that, etc.. I had attended many different Catholic churches, in a few different states, with little variation. I had not received any instruction as to the mysteries behind the rituals. As i got older, the only way i found more of the REASON for the dogma was my own investigation. As far as my family goes, they are still catholic. We simply agree to disagree.

I'm sorry you felt your childhood was like that. You said you hadn't received any instruction as to the mysteries behind the rituals. And you said you investigated. But did you really look in the right places? In other words, did you read orthodox Catholic apologetics materials, or did you read what non-Catholics say about the Church? Non-Catholic publications are often biased about the Church, and the info they print is often mistakes, misunderstandings, or outright lies.

Also, what's wrong with ritual? I get the impression you're saying something is wrong with it.

jmjtina-

Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2).

Agreed-until the bible was finally completed (there is a scrip that goes with this--ill find it)

But you don't realize that the early Christians -- long before the Bible was compiled -- were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice. Their writings reflect that. A lot of them even knew the 12 Apostles personally and were taught by them. In addition, for many centuries the vast majority of the faithful were illiterate. How could the Bible be the sole rule of faith if most people couldn't read it?

He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

right--then read acts 17:11-And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to check up on Paul and Silas, to see if they were really teaching the truth.

Which tells me to take that which is taught by tradition and apply it to the scriptures--if they disagree with the scrips then it is a false teaching.

Sorry, but you're taking that verse out of context. The Bereans had first been taught Christianity and were checking to make sure its claims matched Old Testament prophecies. It doesn't mean that the Bible has to be used as a checklist for all Christian doctrines. If it did, then since only the Old Testament existed at the time, it would mean that only the Old Testament should be used for that purpose and that the New Testament would be totally out-of-place.

[phatcatholic]

woh, woh, woh.....i'm going to have to interject here for a moment.

this thread is attempting to handle three topics at the same time....

1. ex-catholics who are ignorant of the faith

2. sola scriptura

3. silverbug's faith journey

....which is quite laborious and difficult to manage.

since he has requested already that we remain on one subject only, and b/c i think we would all agree that this is the most effective way to dialogue, i say we make this thread about one subject and make new threads for the remaining subjects.

so, what is this going to be about? since they all involve silverbug, i am ok w/ him deciding. what do u all think?

if this little intervention of mine is annoying, i apologize. i just felt like this topic was getting off track, and i wanted to bring it back somehow.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Edited February 18, 2004 by phatcatholic

[foundsheep]

I am watching this thread. I believe what should be stuck to is the Sola scriptura subject. Because it interjects with the other two. So lets start with that. Then if you want to discuss the others start new threads.

Your Mediator of Meh

Foundsheep da ecclectic Laker fan.

[Silverbug]

Phatcatholic--THANK YOU for the interjection and keeping this on one topic at a time.

HOWEVER-you didnt fully read my post did you?

The part where i talked about my WIFE?

That would make me a "he"

Sorry for the jibe but i couldnt resist.

Now--yes lets keep this on one topic--well start with my faith journey--(all others lets wait for a bit until we get this one out of the way.) I dont mind talking about any of it, but one at a time please.

Dave-

That's great that the Lord is making an impact on your life! But you didn't need to leave the Catholic Church in order for that to happen.

You love going to church services, interacting, and being involved. Well again, that's great, but I get the impression your basing things on feelings. Sometimes in worshipping the Lord we may not exactly FEEL joy. There are times when most of us go through dry spells. Yet that doesn't mean that if we don't feel joy there's something wrong with us.

I'm sorry you felt your childhood was like that. You said you hadn't received any instruction as to the mysteries behind the rituals. And you said you investigated. But did you really look in the right places? In other words, did you read orthodox Catholic apologetics materials, or did you read what non-Catholics say about the Church? Non-Catholic publications are often biased about the Church, and the info they print is often mistakes, misunderstandings, or outright lies.

=====================================================

Now when i began to get back into the Catholic Church, I did it with my whole heart and mind--i wasnt holding back, I jumped in with both feet--but found it lacking. I realize there may be dry spells , but i wasnt being spiritually fed. the more i learned the more i questioned. I sought the advice of clergy, my parents, and Catholic apologetic material. I was led by the Spirit to keep searching.

When I went to my current church, i FELT joy. My heart jumps when i sing, some of the songs move me to tears. There have been certain sermons by our pastor that hit home so well, my wife and I talk about them for hours after services. In all my years at mass, i had never had such a moving of the Spirit as i do now.

I dont believe in looking at one side of an issue, i have studied the catholic faith at length from Catholic sources, as well as my own from other sources. Why are you assuming i didnt look in the right places?

There is nothing wrong with ritual if it has meaning. Early in my Catholic life, i was saying that it was all ritual because the mysteries that give them meaning were never fullyexplained to me. Later in life as i learned more about them THEn they meant more.

<example> Giving up something for lent. When i was young it was something to endure thru, and sneak around just to shut my parents up. Later I understood that the sacrifice was to be a daily reminder of the REASON Christ gave his life for us, so that every time you went for that thing that you gave up you would say"Thank you Lord for your selfless sacrifice"

[Silverbug]

Ok Foundsheep--we posted at about the same time--on to Sola Scriptura

[foundsheep]

2 tim 3:16

14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

17

so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Heres my question, Did Pual know that his letter to Timothy was scripture or was he talking about Old Testament? In order to prove sola scriptura you would need to ask where the Bible came from. Who put these letters together? I know your answer will probably be God, but whom did he work through to make sure this book was put together?

[foundsheep]

PS. or do you believe the bible appeared from thin air?