Status Of The Orthodox Church

[qfnol31]

Can you find a source for that claim? It actually sounds more like the Great Doctors of the Church than anyone I know myself.

And that statement would be considered wrong even by most Orthodox I know, I believe.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1445005' date='Jan 12 2008, 03:56 PM']I guess it all depends on whether the Orthodox put an "O" before every word that begins with an "E" ....

But seriously...

As far as the "Filioque" is concerned, I've said this before: look at the model of the Uniate churches and how
they handle it while still being in communion with the Pope.

Also, the "Great Schism" was considered to offically date from 1054, when the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople mutually excommunicated each other, but from what I've read, were these not retracted in 1965?

There is also the problem that many Orthodox Churches have been controlled by various governments even in recent times, especially under the communists in Eastern Europe.

And, from what I've read, there are different rules for divorced and remarriage in the Orthodox chrucres; this
would be more of an issue than anything else, to me.[/quote]

I think only the Roman Patriarch lifted the excommunication, but I'm not sure.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1445194' date='Jan 13 2008, 12:51 AM']Can you find a source for that claim? It actually sounds more like the Great Doctors of the Church than anyone I know myself.

And that statement would be considered wrong even by most Orthodox I know, I believe.[/quote]

Hey, that's just what the guy at the middle eastern food fair at a Greek Orthodox church told us when we mentioned we were Catholic and what Photius seems to have believed.

[qfnol31]

The problem is, my best friend is Orthodox and I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe that. Also, he doesn't make a big deal out of the Trinity in that sense. Most of the time they're more comfortable just calling it a mystery than trying to explain it.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1445256' date='Jan 13 2008, 11:28 AM']Hey, that's just what the guy at the middle eastern food fair at a Greek Orthodox church told us when we mentioned we were Catholic and what Photius seems to have believed.[/quote]

Ahh, yes, some guy at the food fair = Greek Orthodox magisterium.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1445196' date='Jan 13 2008, 02:53 AM']I think only the Roman Patriarch lifted the excommunication, but I'm not sure.[/quote]
It was a mutual gesture by the Pope of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I to be precise.

[Laudate_Dominum]

STM is certainly right (in my experience) that you can find Orthodox Christians who simply deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son in any way at all but they are generally not theologians.
The problem with the [i]filioque[/i] doctrine as it is expressed in the Roman creed (as far as Orthodoxy is concerned) is that it implies that the Son is cause [[i]aitia[/i]] or co-cause of the [i]hypostasis[/i] of the Holy Spirit. Latin doctrine puts forth an interpretation of [i]procedere[/i] as [i]ekporeusis[/i] which effectively destroys the [i]monarchia[/i] of the Father and results in an understanding of [i]homoousios[/i] that is essentially Sabellian.
According to Orthodox theology the Holy Spirit can be said to proceed from the Father through/and the Son according to the term [i]proienai[/i] which refers to the (eternal and uncreated) energetic manifestation of the Spirit and/or the sending of the Spirit in the [i]oikonomia[/i].

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[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1444791' date='Jan 11 2008, 09:33 PM']There was a discussion on this a while back with Revprodeji.[/quote]


Thanks for the props. Ironically L_D answered almost exactly what I was going to answer so I really do not have much value to add to this topic. Other than to say that throwing the heretic tag on to the east does nothing productive for either side. My opinion is the western and the eastern trinitarian theologies are incomplete on their own and can only have the full revealed apostolic theology if they are understood withing the framework of each other. Since we would rather talk past each other and ignore each other we have developed our own frameworks that in turn come very close to heresy. This is incredibly obvious in the west. Those issues are nonexistent if we bind our theological developments to the revealed truths of the east. (developed in large part by the cappadocians)

So no offense STM, but calling the east heretical for the filioque is not accurate. I have been researching this topic in detail for almost 2 years now and you are wrong theologically as well as ecclesiological with that statement.

I tend to stay away from these arguments, as they usually flame out into a frat war of my party is better than yours and that sense of polemics is very destructive. I would recommend reading some of the many legit academic articles written on this topic rather than listening to rants from people with a strong bias

(again, no offense STM, I hope you know I do not think anything less about you--this is just not an issue we see eye to eye on)

Papa, that is a sad site with sad words, but that is not the majority view of the greek church. In the same way as every group of people has some idiots we need to understand that we do and so do they. We have said negative things about the east, and the east has said negative stuff on us. We have tried to make them latin by almost erasing their traditions which are apostolic and should be a part of our faith as well. Because they see this constant threat of assimulation they defend against that. There is so much pain this this struggle.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1445275' date='Jan 13 2008, 01:08 PM']The problem is, my best friend is Orthodox and I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe that. Also, he doesn't make a big deal out of the Trinity in that sense. Most of the time they're more comfortable just calling it a mystery than trying to explain it.[/quote]
Gotta love the East. They really do love mystery.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1445315' date='Jan 13 2008, 02:43 PM']STM is certainly right (in my experience) that you can find Orthodox Christians who simply deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son in any way at all but they are generally not theologians.
The problem with the [i]filioque[/i] doctrine as it is expressed in the Roman creed (as far as Orthodoxy is concerned) is that it implies that the Son is cause [[i]aitia[/i]] or co-cause of the [i]hypostasis[/i] of the Holy Spirit. Latin doctrine puts forth an interpretation of [i]procedere[/i] as [i]ekporeusis[/i] which effectively destroys the [i]monarchia[/i] of the Father and results in an understanding of [i]homoousios[/i] that is essentially Sabellian.
According to Orthodox theology the Holy Spirit can be said to proceed from the Father through/and the Son according to the term [i]proienai[/i] which refers to the (eternal and uncreated) energetic manifestation of the Spirit and/or the sending of the Spirit in the [i]oikonomia[/i].[/quote]
Wewt! L_D said what I was thinking on page one but I didn't know how to express it. Gotta love the scholarly types.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1445373' date='Jan 13 2008, 05:18 PM']Thanks for the props. Ironically L_D answered almost exactly what I was going to answer so I really do not have much value to add to this topic. Other than to say that throwing the heretic tag on to the east does nothing productive for either side. My opinion is the western and the eastern trinitarian theologies are incomplete on their own and can only have the full revealed apostolic theology if they are understood withing the framework of each other. Since we would rather talk past each other and ignore each other we have developed our own frameworks that in turn come very close to heresy. This is incredibly obvious in the west. Those issues are nonexistent if we bind our theological developments to the revealed truths of the east. (developed in large part by the cappadocians)[/quote]
Np. L_D was consise and on the money. Heretic tag, though is quite... spiteful. Anywho, I agree with your thoughts on east and west theology. Pope JPII did as well... he gave a great analogy of lungs when it came to east and west. Interesting that you think both east and west are close to heresy. I'll save that for another day, though. I think I'll smile and nod.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1445373' date='Jan 13 2008, 05:18 PM']Papa, that is a sad site with sad words, but that is not the majority view of the greek church. In the same way as every group of people has some idiots we need to understand that we do and so do they. We have said negative things about the east, and the east has said negative stuff on us. We have tried to make them latin by almost erasing their traditions which are apostolic and should be a part of our faith as well. Because they see this constant threat of assimulation they defend against that. There is so much pain this this struggle.[/quote]
I think you added quite a bit to the post with this last part. We both really do need humility to see eye to eye again. To be honest, I'd love to regularly go to some Eastern Liturgies, maybe even study some theology in the Eastern light. At the same time, I'm a young Catholic kid who still wants to restore tradition to the west. I got my work cut out for me.

[u][b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72774&hl="]Here[/url][/b][/u] is Revprodeji's thread for those in the mood for some "light" reading

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[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1445465' date='Jan 13 2008, 10:50 PM']Interesting that you think both east and west are close to heresy. I'll save that for another day, though. I think I'll smile and nod.[/quote]

Let me explain this statement with a little better clarity. Almost every one of the great heresies were a truth perverted. There were aspects of truth involved which made it so dangerous. The problem is when they "pushed" these truths they ended up in heresy. As catholics we have "protection" against those heresies because the church came together as one, and brought with it the sum of the apostolic witness to answer the issue.

Now, with the trinitarian theology we have the problem of a severed apostolic witness. In the west that means (as we spoke about briefly in the paper) is that we accidently and often compromise the monarchy of the father, as well as our theology can confuse the father and the Son. (somewhat of a modalistic issue) Now, the original Augustinian theology was not intended to do these 2 things, and if you apply augustine's filioque within the teachings of the eastern apostolic fathers then you do not have these problems (somewhat the message of my paper) but the issue is that we simply do not take the eastern teachings with us. Unless someone goes out of their way to study the eastern teaching they are left with a western trinitarian theology that is dangerously close to heresy. Not because the western root is bad, but as an incomplete theology it is open to heresy.

(There are examples for the east also, but being that you are not eastern I do not need to mention them and they would only light a fire under anti-eastern people)

I believe I sent you the article from Robert Letham. He is protestant, but his understandings of trinitarian theology are very good. He also sees the fuller threat of western trinitarian issues because protestant trintarian theology is kind of a mess for the most part.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Rev! Good to see you posting again!

[jeffpugh]

I see what you mean. The initial idea is what I got from your previous post, but you really fleshed it out. Thanks for sharing.

[N/A Gone]

As a non-flagged all of my statements need an astrix. but I love the encouragement.

[Laudate_Dominum]

On another note does anyone have a favorite Orthodox theologian or two? I'm thinking mainly of modern theologians but any will do. I'm just curious.

I haven't read as much as I would like but at this point I am partial to Florovsky and Lossky and I'm quite fond of Schmemann's books. I would like to study Bulgakov but I'm a little scared.

[qfnol31]

I really want to read [i]The Way of a Pilgrim[/i]. I have it, I just need to read it.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1445373' date='Jan 13 2008, 03:18 PM']Papa, that is a sad site with sad words, but that is not the majority view of the greek church. In the same way as every group of people has some idiots we need to understand that we do and so do they. We have said negative things about the east, and the east has said negative stuff on us. We have tried to make them latin by almost erasing their traditions which are apostolic and should be a part of our faith as well. Because they see this constant threat of assimulation they defend against that. There is so much pain this this struggle.[/quote]

Well-said. I just wish that site would stop popping up first every time I google Eastern Fathers!

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I do not see that site as entirely negative myself. But, interesting enough I googled "eastern fathers" and the website in question did not come up until the bottom of the 8th page.

[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=eastern+fathers&hl=en&start=70&sa=N"]http://www.google.com/search?q=eastern+fat...art=70&sa=N[/url]

[Innocent]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1444810' date='Jan 12 2008, 09:59 AM']....It's like me calling Apotheoun of blessed memory (I mean Todd on the phorum) ......[/quote]

Did anything happen to Apotheoun?

Edited January 15, 2008 by Innocent

[qfnol31]

LoL, he posted just the other day. It's just that he posts less often on here now.

[N/A Gone]

I love TODD. I want to be his groupie. I love reading his writings. Him and L_D should just get people to sit near a pond and talk all day. I would bring some bottled water and a blanket to sit on. I would enjoy that day.