Illegal Immigration Viewed Through The Prism Of Faith

[daytondog]

The Ann Coulter/John McCain thread is quite interesting, and one of the main points of contention people take with John McCain was/is his stance on amnesty for illegal immigrants.

The illegal immigration debate is always framed as a Constitutional debate. How about if illegal immigration is viewed through the prism of faith? Since the vast majority of Latin Americans are Catholic, and the vast majority of illegal immigrants are from Latin America, is illegal immigration in this country a vehicle for the eventual dilution of the Protestant heresy in America? Or is it a vehicle for the further export of Protestantism to Latin America and the dilution of the Catholic faith among Latin Americans since many are far from family and their normal social structure and are vulnerable to Protestant conversion? Your thoughts please.

[Justin86]

Neither. Illegal immigration is an opportunity for Latin American gangs like MS-13 to cross the border and commit crimes over here, which they do.

Someone has to stop this madness.

[Mercy me]

I don't see a faith component to the illegal immigration issue. It is fueled by economics or rather economic failure.

[daytondog]

The first two responses did not address the question being asked. The question has nothing to do with the motivations of those illegals who immigrate, but rather once the illegals do arrive, what happens in regards to the religious faith they had on arrival to the US; and if they assimilate (a big IF), what happens to the faith they have while living here?

[CatherineM]

When I was growing up in Oklahoma, the Catholic population was about 5%. It is much higher than that now, due mostly to legal and/or illegal immigration. My Godparents were from Mexico. He got his citizenship by serving in the US Army during WWII. She got a green card as his wife, and didn't go for US citizenship until much later about 20 years ago. They were both very productive members of society and of our parish, putting all 5 of their children through college to advanced degrees. He worked for the FAA, and she worked in a school cafeteria. One of their granddaughters is a graduate of the Air Force Academy and is a major flying KC-135's.

I'm now on the other side of the issue as an immigrant to Canada. Borders don't keep people out, they only feed the coyotes and human traffickers. Real social justice would be a world without borders.

[hoosieranna]

I'm a geographer. None of the literature I have ever encountered has included a faith element in the research. When gauging assimilation, other things are looked at, such as use of majority language or what the immigrant may as individually (Mexican, American, Mexican-American, etc). To the best of my knowledge, immigration as a faith issue hasn't been studied.

That said, I may be entirely wrong. If so, let me know.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='daytondog' post='1454875' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:29 AM']The first two responses did not address the question being asked. The question has nothing to do with the motivations of those illegals who immigrate, but rather once the illegals do arrive, what happens in regards to the religious faith they had on arrival to the US; and if they assimilate (a big IF), what happens to the faith they have while living here?[/quote]

I'm glad you brought that up, because it seems that there are a lot of Hispanics who do leave the Catholic Church for the evangelical churches, so I do think that American evangelicism does provide a temptation for them to leave.

That being said, I don't know how much better for their Catholic faith it would be for them to stay in their own countries, since the evangelical churches are gaining ground in Latin America as well.

Of course, that is for Hispanic immigrants. I live on the NW side of Chicago, which is a virtual "Little Warsaw" because of the substantial Polish immigrant population. It seems that evangelicals have not made as great an inroad among Polish immigrants as among the Hispanic ones, partially because of the role of the Catholic Church in Poland as an alternative to Communism and its conservative nature and, of course, the late Pope John Paul II. And don't think that illegal immigration is just among Hispanics, since there are Polish immigrants who are technically illegal because they may overstay their visas.

And I just want to point out that the faith issue you bring up applies not only to those here illegally, but also to those here legally.

[daytondog]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1454918' date='Feb 3 2008, 01:58 PM']And I just want to point out that the faith issue you bring up applies not only to those here illegally, but also to those here legally.[/quote]

Good point. The ancestors of immigrants who came legally in the past such as Italians, Irish, Germans, Pols, etc. are now the bedrock of American Catholicism.

My ancestors (Brennan clan) were from Ireland; before the Anglo-occupation of the Irish island we were wealthy landowners, respected in Irish society. After the invasion and take-over, we eventually became bandits (Brennan in Ireland is like the Sicilian equivalent of Corleone.) and horse thieves after our land and livelihoods were stolen by the English. I somewhat suspect if the Irish were fortunate enough to share a long land border with America like Mexico does, my family would not have hesitated to cross over the border "illegally." With that being said, their only option at the time was the legal way of sailing to America through the ports of New York, Boston or Baltimore (still not sure which.) Unless you count stowaways as illegal immigrants, in which perhaps my family could have been stowaways under the boat and they snuck in without anyone knowing. Possible, but unlikely. But, since they had such a propensity to resort to criminality in order to ensure the survival of their families and faith back in Ireland, I think that if they were in the position to walk to America, they would have.

Edited February 3, 2008 by daytondog

[CatherineM]

I saddest part of seeing Hispanic friends fall away and join evangelicals, is that when they give up the church, they often get estranged from their families and community because all major activities happen in and around the church. The evangelicals can grab a lot of Hispanics because they cater to them, and Hispanics are very devout.

[Justin86]

Deport all illegals. Even the Polish ones.

[son_of_angels]

Deport silly people, even the Catholic ones.

[daytondog]

Nationalism (some have called the closest too a secular religion) trumps religious affiliation with a lot of people, American Catholics included.
Regardless of being co religious, many times in history co religious have fought each other due to competing ideas nationalism. (ie Shiite Arabs fought against Shiite Persians in the Iraq-Iran War which in the beginning of that war was still in question what side the Iraqi Shiites were going to take. In the end they fought faithfully for their country of Iraq.) To many American Catholics, the American identity and concepts of law and order trumps any sense of allegiance and fraternity they may feel for other Catholics who they feel have competing ideas of nationalism that threaten the American "way of life."

Edited February 4, 2008 by daytondog

[Justin86]

[quote name='son_of_angels' post='1455169' date='Feb 4 2008, 02:42 PM']Deport silly people, even the Catholic ones.[/quote]
But where would we deport the silly people? Who would determine who is silly?

[Justin86]

[quote name='daytondog' post='1455180' date='Feb 4 2008, 02:54 PM']Nationalism (some have called the closest too a secular religion) trumps religious affiliation with a lot of people, American Catholics included.
Regardless of being co religious, many times in history co religious have fought each other due to competing ideas nationalism. (ie Shiite Arabs fought against Shiite Persians in the Iraq-Iran War which in the beginning of that war was still in question what side the Iraqi Shiites were going to take. In the end they fought faithfully for their country of Iraq.) To many American Catholics, the American identity and concepts of law and order trumps any sense of allegiance and fraternity they may feel for other Catholics who they feel have competing ideas of nationalism that threaten the American "way of life."[/quote]
Oh please. This has nothing to do with nationalism over religion. I wouldn't mind the Hispanics at all if I honestly felt they could bring a Catholic identity to this country, however, with all the drug trafficking, and gang violence given to us from south of the border there's no way I'm willing tolerate open borders. We need to know who wants to come through, what they intend to do once here, and monitor them while they're here.

Look, you need to go and actually do some research on Hispanic gangs in America--especially MS-13. You have to have a heart of stone not to think we shouldn't be doing everything we can to stop them(that would be why Ted Kennedy doesn't care).

On a further note, as long as the Hispanics live on welfare, and refuse to learn English they will forever be doomed to be the permanent lower class who will be used by Democrats to garnish votes. Ballots will be printed in both English and Spanish, but I guarantee you Spanish will never be spoken on the Senate floor.

[daytondog]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1455240' date='Feb 4 2008, 02:50 AM']however, with all the drug trafficking, and gang violence given to us from south of the border there's no way I'm willing tolerate open borders. We need to know who wants to come through, what they intend to do once here, and monitor them while they're here.

Look, you need to go and actually do some research on Hispanic gangs in America--especially MS-13. You have to have a heart of stone not to think we shouldn't be doing everything we can to stop them(that would be why Ted Kennedy doesn't care).[/quote]

I don't need to do any research on MS-13, drug trafficking, etc. I don't agree with an open border, and I have never advocated it. I have only been speaking empirically, not normatively when discussing immigration. An open border, regardless of whether Catholics on the other side, is an unacceptable security risk to this nation. I'm just wanted to talk about the religious implications of immigration, whether illegal or legal in this country and hemisphere. I'm not advocating an open border. I support a secured border, but that was not the point of this thread.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1455231' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:35 AM']But where would we deport the silly people? Who would determine who is silly?[/quote]

Looks like a job for the ministry of silly walks.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1455231' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:35 AM']But where would we deport the silly people? Who would determine who is silly?[/quote]

Looks like a job for the ministry of silly walks.

[Dismas]

I've worked for years with numerous immigrants, most of whom were from Mexico. I'm rather certain that a good number of them were illegal.

I also belonged to a Catholic parish that changed over from German/Italian to Mexican as the predominant membership.

What I have noticed is this:

- First generation Hispanic immigrants are more often "cultural Catholics" than practicing, though the split is close to even. The youth minister at my former parish once told me, "Most become members to have their children baptized, then you never see them again."

- Mexican Catholicism is especially fragile. Consider that a nation that was almost entirely Catholic allowed the 1917 Constitution of Mexico and the numerous bloody martyrdoms of Catholic priests, religious, and laity to transpire. The Church to this day is ever in danger as secularists spread their hate, and paint Catholicism as a continuation of Spanish dominance.

[url="http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml"]http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml[/url]

- Due to the ravages of "Liberation Theology", many Hispanics are drawn to Protestant-Nationalist churches, both here and abroad.

No, I don't believe that illegal immigration is helping Catholicize the US, rather it is helping the Protestantism make further inroads.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Dismas

[rkwright]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1455308' date='Feb 4 2008, 10:19 AM']I've worked for years with numerous immigrants, most of whom were from Mexico. I'm rather certain that a good number of them were illegal.

I also belonged to a Catholic parish that changed over from German/Italian to Mexican as the predominant membership.

What I have noticed is this:

- First generation Hispanic immigrants are more often "cultural Catholics" than practicing, though the split is close to even. The youth minister at my former parish once told me, "Most become members to have their children baptized, then you never see them again."

- Mexican Catholicism is especially fragile. Consider that a nation that was almost entirely Catholic allowed the 1917 Constitution of Mexico and the numerous bloody martyrdoms of Catholic priests, religious, and laity to transpire. The Church to this day is ever in danger as secularists spread their hate, and paint Catholicism as a continuation of Spanish dominance.

[url="http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml"]http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_748.shtml[/url]

- Due to the ravages of "Liberation Theology", many Hispanics are drawn to Protestant-Nationalist churches, both here and abroad.

No, I don't believe that illegal immigration is helping Catholicize the US, rather it is helping the Protestantism make further inroads.[/quote]

I have to agree 100%....

[CatherineM]

I wonder how many of you have ever stepped foot in Mexico, and if you have, did you ever get farther than 10 feet from the resort in Cancun/Puerto Vallarta where everyone speaks English?

Go to the shrine and watch the elderly women walk on their knees across the cobbles. How many of you have had a Hispanic in your home to dinner? The M-13's are from El Salvador, not Mexico, and they prey primarily on the Hispanic community, especially taking advantage of illegals who are afraid to go to the police.

What would Jesus have said about how we treat and talk about these people? Quote me a bible passage or CCC passage where it says it is okay to hate and fear people based on their nationality, language or culture. You guys jump up to defend the unborn, and rightly so, but these are human beings too. Calling them illegal as a way of separating them out from our society so it is okay to be prejudiced against them, should sicken us all.