dairygirl4u2c Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 really it's quite a joke that anyone would water board when you should be prying their fingernails off but...
CatherineM Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 I decided not to vote on this. My father was a torture victim as a POW, so I am incapable of discussing this as a philosophical exercise. I will say that I asked my father once if he regretted having to kill people during the war. He said that he regretted it was necessary.
Deb Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 Torture very rarely ever gains any information that is of any value. So, your kids are dead, your bomb goes off etc and all you have done is tortured. Please, police beating a confession out of someone is not what we need in this country. We had that for too many years.
kenrockthefirst Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 We get it dairygirl, you're OK with waterboarding. Whatever floats your boat. However, the Catholic Church does not countenance torture, period. dairygirl, meet dead horse. Dead horse, dairygirl.
kenrockthefirst Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1457631' date='Feb 8 2008, 03:24 PM']We get it dairygirl, you're OK with waterboarding. Whatever floats your boat. However, the Catholic Church does not countenance torture, period. dairygirl, meet dead horse. Dead horse, dairygirl.[/quote] I forgot to add *yawn*.
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 8, 2008 Author Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) it's not a dead horse until you acknowledge explicitly.... "i would allow those children to die even though torturing might have saved their lives" "i would allow millions to die even though in that hypothetical torturing might have saved millions of lives" i also want to add to the hypos,,, although i admit it's getting more far fetched... that you know they are prone to spilling the beans when tortured. or... the only way they would and they stated they would is if you pried their fingernails off please state this or it's not a dead horse. all of you who said it's not allowed are cowards, and if you turned down to torture in these situations, you should be executed. Edited February 8, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c
jeffpugh Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1457631' date='Feb 8 2008, 02:24 PM']We get it dairygirl, you're OK with waterboarding. Whatever floats your boat. However, the Catholic Church does not countenance torture, period. dairygirl, meet dead horse. Dead horse, dairygirl.[/quote] Dairygirl, I'm agreeing w/ the kenrock here. Enough is enough. Stop beating the dead horse. There have been countless threads on this. You're obsessed!
kenrockthefirst Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457706' date='Feb 8 2008, 04:25 PM']it's not a dead horse until you acknowledge explicitly.... "i would allow those children to die even though torturing might have saved their lives" "i would allow millions to die even though in that hypothetical torturing might have saved millions of lives" i also want to add to the hypos,,, although i admit it's getting more far fetched... that you know they are prone to spilling the beans when tortured. or... the only way they would and they stated they would is if you pried their fingernails off please state this or it's not a dead horse. all of you who said it's not allowed are cowards, and if you turned down to torture in these situations, you should be executed.[/quote] Here are your questions, distilled: I would commit evil to avoid evil. That about sum it up?
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 8, 2008 Author Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) yeah i am a little obsessed. this issue makes me angry. it's not a good thing, i agree. i think cause it's a fundamental thing that you can't really argue about etc. some are for it and some against it no matter what. that's just the way it is. since it's funamental there's nothing anyone can do to convince the other, even if arguing was only an appeasement to me knowing you'd never change. there's just not much to be said. ****Here are your questions, distilled: I would commit evil to avoid evil. That about sum it up? nope. cause it's too simplified... i'm committing a small evil to avoid a very large evil. that's the worst it could be typified as. really, i don't think torturing them would be evil. plus you still haven't stated what i said in my quotes in my last post. i don't think most would want to state it... cause they are in that psycholigially messed up state where they're adhereing to abstractions like "the ends don't justify the means" and not about the reality of the situtaion. proof that ppl are not looking at the reality of what they're saying is in the fact taht they always finds excuses "they might not have given the info anyway...." etc. the fact is, based on these ideas, it shouldn't matter that they wouldn't give the info and even if they would you still wouldn't torture. the whole idea of you saying that shows your avoidance of the issue, to a degree: it's at least an indicator that that's what's happening psychologically. Edited February 8, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c
Deb Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457706' date='Feb 8 2008, 03:25 PM']it's not a dead horse until you acknowledge explicitly.... "i would allow those children to die even though torturing might have saved their lives" "i would allow millions to die even though in that hypothetical torturing might have saved millions of lives" i also want to add to the hypos,,, although i admit it's getting more far fetched... that you know they are prone to spilling the beans when tortured. or... the only way they would and they stated they would is if you pried their fingernails off please state this or it's not a dead horse. all of you who said it's not allowed are cowards, and if you turned down to torture in these situations, you should be executed.[/quote] First of all, it has been proven over and over again, that torture does not work. People who are tortured will agree to anything and even make things up to stop the torture. If you have a die hard extremist who wants to blow up mass quantities of people, do you really think he is going to tell you how to stop it because you water boarded him? Heck, dying makes him a martyr in his eyes and you won't get jack. Actually, if I got executed because I refused to torture someone because I am following the teachings of my Christ Jesus, I would be a martyr and then I would be with my Lord forever. So, sign me up!
Deb Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 Furthermore.....don't call me a coward. I am not a coward. I am not afraid of anyone or anything. (well, maybe cockroaches) I have had a junkie with a gun to my head and I never even flinched and I still have my head, and my car, which he wanted. If you keep up this dead horse debate (yes, I said dead horse) you will be guilty of torture yourself.
kafka Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1457794' date='Feb 8 2008, 04:58 PM']If you keep up this dead horse debate (yes, I said dead horse) you will be guilty of torture yourself.[/quote]
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 9, 2008 Author Posted February 9, 2008 it just seems to defy common sense that you'd let millions die. the only reason that i can see is because you're being told that's what you have to believe.
jeffpugh Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1457794' date='Feb 8 2008, 04:58 PM']... If you keep up this dead horse debate (yes, I said dead horse) you will be guilty of torture yourself.[/quote] Amen. That has been my feelings since after Groo's thread got outa hand.
jeffpugh Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457853' date='Feb 8 2008, 07:11 PM']it just seems to defy common sense that you'd let millions die. the only reason that i can see is because you're being told that's what you have to believe.[/quote] The only thing that defies common sense here is living in your little world and not looking at the facts. Besides, so what if millions die. The only important thing is whether they've chosen Christ or not. That's what I'm worried about. We're all goona die some day. Think about it. Ashes to Ashes... dust to dUSt... Science nor peace in this time will make us live forever, only dwelling in the house of Christ. You're obsessed with torture, and obsessed with not dying. You'd better straighten that out before you decide to further any investigations.
Alycin Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 The fact that an immoral action [u]may or may not [/u]save millions of lives doesn't make the action morally permissable...Embryonic stem cell research ring a bell? If you were God and somehow knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that these people you are just dying to torture actually had some kind of information that you needed to save lives... then you could try to argue using your scenarios. But you're not God, are you? By the way... I don't think you're grasping the concept of ends justifying the means.
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 9, 2008 Author Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) i'm grasping the concept. if you accept that as your premise, then it's sound to a degree and arguably. i'm a consequentialist, so as a foundational problem, i cannot see how you'd not justify the means. or find a way to rationalize it as you do with so many other things.... like saying capital punishment isn't justifying the means etc... but again i'm a consequentialist, so i would say that. to me it's the end that matters weighed with various other considrations, totaltity of the situation. see, i could embrace it as a rule of thumb the ends stuff but that's all. to me, it's not evil an evil act to begin with if the end is proper. i still think you better shape up before you go before God and explain why you let millions of people die or those children die, or would be willing to. i know i'd be happy to die for these convictions and those pepole. he's not gonna be pleased you were being dogmatic at the expense of lives and common sense.... Edited February 9, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c
Alycin Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 lol! Execpt that your scenarios are MADE UP and highly unlikely! To say that if the end of something is good, the action is morally permissable, is laughable. Premarital sex ending in an awesome bundle of joy makes premarital sex right? Uhm, no.
Alycin Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457911' date='Feb 8 2008, 08:25 PM']i still think you better shape up before you go before God and explain why you let millions of people die or those children die, or would be willing to. i know i'd be happy to die for these convictions and those pepole. he's not gonna be pleased you were being dogmatic at the expense of lives and common sense....[/quote] Ha! Thanks for the tip. By the way, I already mentioned yesterday that I would give up my life for people. Just not kill or torture anyone.: [quote name='Alycin' post='1457461' date='Feb 8 2008, 02:18 AM']I would most definitely give up my own life in order to not compromise my morals. I would gladly be killed before having to kill another human being.[/quote] Good try with the guilt trip though!
Deb Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1457853' date='Feb 8 2008, 07:11 PM']it just seems to defy common sense that you'd let millions die. the only reason that i can see is because you're being told that's what you have to believe.[/quote] Who would be telling me what to believe? Who is telling you what to believe?
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