Getting Fed, Emotions, Etc.

[phatcatholic]

One of the great differences between Protestant and Catholic doctrine is in the area of Tradition. The Protestant church maintains that the Bible alone is intended by God to be the source of doctrinal truth (2 Tim. 3:16).

first off, did u get my previous post? i want to make sure that there are no hard feelings before we engage in debate over any doctrinal issues.

that said, have you read our comments in the "forgiven former seminarian" about the validity of using 2 Tim 3:16 to support sola scriptura? if you have not, please do. as of yet, i haven't seen any reply from you regarding these comments. to me, this verse doesn't prove what you say it does. for the sake of brevity, consult the other thread for my reasons why. if you would like me to repeat them again in this thread, i can.

Within the Catholic scope of Tradition, many doctrines have been "revealed" to the Church over the centuries. For example, there is the veneration of Mary, her immaculate conception and her bodily assumption into heaven. There is also the apocrypha, transubstantiation, praying to saints, the confessional, penance, purgatory, and more. Protestantism as a whole differs with Catholicism in these additions.

these doctrines are not only accredited to tradition. since the church came before the Bible, it is only a logical consequence that they did not "come from" the Bible, per say. but they ARE supported by the Bible and are definitely not anti-biblical. likewise, the earliest christian testimony reveals that these doctrines were taught from the very beginning. they have not just suddenly been "revealed" but have always been present. of course, this is just commentary. if you would like the proof, just let me know.

The Bible is for tradition where it supports the teachings of the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15) and is consistent with biblical revelation. Yet, it is against tradition when it "transgresses the commands of God" (Matt. 15:3). By Jesus' own words, tradition is not to transgress or contradict the commands of God. In other words, it should be in harmony with biblical teaching and not oppose it in any way.

we are in agreement here about when we should be for or against tradition. and traditions should not be anti-biblical. however, the "Word of God" is not restricted to what has been written. Jesus told the apostles, "Whoever hears you hears me, whoever rejects you, rejects me." i have yet to see a convincing argument that the Word is restricted to written form.

Though the Catholic Church officially states that Sacred Tradition should not and does not contradict Scripture, Protestants see much of the teaching from this Sacred Tradition as doing just that.

if you will, please name for me the Catholic doctrines that contradict Scripture.

Like any spiritual teaching, I must compare it to the Bible. Jesus own words in Matt. 15:3 lend support for myself and many non-Catholics to subject the fruit of Sacred Tradition to the pruning of God's word. In other words, do the teachings of the Catholic church that are derived through tradition transgress the commands of God? Of course, the Catholic will say that they do not.

here is Mat 15:3....

He said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

i don't see how this verse says that we should compare everything to the Bible. also, what were the early Christians for the first 1500 years (before the printing press) to do? compare the teaching of the apostles to a bible that did not exist? of course not. instead, they accepting the teaching of the apostles passed down thru the ages b/c it was the Word of God. it is this teaching that we preserve.

Mat 15:1-6 "Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem, saying, 2"Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." 3And He answered and said to them, "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4"For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,' and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5"But you say, ‘Whoever shall say to his father or mother, "Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God," 6he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."

essentially, you have two things to prove:

1. the Word of God is restricted to what is written

2. catholic doctrine contradicts the Word of God

Are the religious leaders of the Catholic Church exempt from subjection to the Word of God? And likewise, is their Sacred Tradition also exempt? I think not.

of course it is not.

It is number 2 that is the main concern here. What does it mean to read Scripture "within the living Tradition of the whole Church?" If Scripture is "within the living Tradition," then Tradition encompasses Scripture. In other words, it is the tradition of the Church that interprets Scripture. This is in contradiction to the Word of God spoken by Jesus in Matt. 15:1-6.

for one, that bible cannot interpret itself. if it could, then we would all agree on what it said. furthermore, you would probably agree that the table of contents for the bible is infallible. or, put another way, these books and only these books belong. however, nowhere in the Bible does it say which books are to be included. someone outside the Bible had to this. and besides this, isn't just obvious that we need an infallible interpreter to help us glean the correct and True message from the Bible? the hundreds (i'm being generous) of denominations w/in protestantism proves that we don't always agree, and someone always gets it wrong.

the Church is this interpreter.

however, this does not mean that it is above the Bible. the Word of God in the Bible is infallible. the Word of God in Sacred Tradition is infallible. they are equal. the end.

Nevertheless, it is my opinion that the Catholic church has added teachings that are not consistent with biblical revelation.

again, the burden of proof is on you.

hopefully, this can be fruitfual dialogue.

pax christi,

phatcatholic