Indulgences And The 700 Club Etc.

[thessalonian]

You know, it's been going on for 500 years now. Protestants railing about indulgences, paying to get out of purgatory, you know the routine. We always hear about it. But you know I will be you that the amount of money, even in those days, was small compared to people like the 700 club, benny hinn, oral roberts, Jim Bakers and his wife's shoe collection, etc. etc. Folks ya need to get over it. Just venting a bit. Carry on.

[Paddington]

Pentecostalists.

[CatherineM]

Since they don't believe in purgatory, why should they care how much we pay or pray to stay out of it.

[Paddington]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1467451' date='Feb 23 2008, 12:36 AM']Since they don't believe in purgatory, why should they care how much we pay or pray to stay out of it.[/quote]

Because they don't believe in Purgatory.

[Justin86]

There actually was nothing wrong with the system set up to distribute indulgences back then. The idea was if a Catholic was going to donate money to either the Church or some other charitable organization of goodwill why not give him an indulgence to encourage good Christian behavior? If I remember my "Reformation" history correctly I believe the indulgence Luther took particular offense to was one the Pope had set up to refurnish St. Peter's. Any Catholic who donated a small amount of money to help clean up the Basilica was granted an indulgence. What exactly was the problem with that?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1467279' date='Feb 22 2008, 01:03 PM']Pentecostalists.[/quote]

Who are Pentecostalists? Jim Baker? Pat Robertson? don't think so. How about Shewler and his Crystal Cathedral? Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking all of this. But there were blessings promised from the 700 club. Certainly the health and wealth Gospel is a fraud. But people don't get near as much venom in them about these things in their own Churches which have at times become corrupt. We don't claim there was never corruption in the Catholic Church. It ebbs and flows. But, while our leaders are provided for by the Church I see alot less lavish living among them.

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1467666' date='Feb 23 2008, 03:56 PM']Who are Pentecostalists? Jim Baker? Pat Robertson? don't think so.[/quote]

Yes they are.

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1467666' date='Feb 23 2008, 03:56 PM']How about Shewler and his Crystal Cathedral?[/quote]

Schuller's teaching seems more Oprah than John Calvin.

Had to edit this one.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Paddington

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1467666' date='Feb 23 2008, 03:56 PM']Certainly the health and wealth Gospel is a fraud. But people don't get near as much venom in them about these things in their own Churches which have at times become corrupt. We don't claim there was never corruption in the Catholic Church. It ebbs and flows. But, while our leaders are provided for by the Church I see alot less lavish living among them.[/quote]

Alright...I have to finish this in one post. Sorry for the extras.

"..the health and wealth Gospel is a fraud."

sounds right

"But people don't get near as much venom in them about these things in their own Churches which have at times become corrupt."

That implies statistics that are not available, but it could be right. However, Schuller and Charismania are regularly poo-poo'd in Protestant circles.


"....I see a lot less lavish living among (our leaders)"

I would bet that too. Protestants (not the Pentecostalists) - generally speaking - pay their pastors as highly-trained professionals who work overtime and have families to support. It does not mean that they make as much as other professionals with the same total amount of education.

[thessalonian]

Schuler may not be considered orthodox but he was duping people, poor people, out of money. Pentecostals of the trinitarian type are still considered Christian. So what is your point. As far as I know baker and Swagart were trinitarian. Swagard was actually Assembly of God if my memory serves me correct. Again where is the outcry against them. Yet Catholics aren't even considered Christains by many of these anti-Catholics and yet they keep pounding the drum. As far as protestants being paid professionals, that is all well and good. This thread isn't so much a criticism of them making a decent living. But the story always goes that the Catholic Church is making big money off the poor through indulgences and stipends and anullments. Yet I don't see it in the lives of the preists and bishops.

[thessalonian]

I just sent him an email telling him my son will be pulled from the class this week. I think a month and a half is sufficient time to answer.

[prose]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1467539' date='Feb 22 2008, 11:39 PM']There actually was nothing wrong with the system set up to distribute indulgences back then. The idea was if a Catholic was going to donate money to either the Church or some other charitable organization of goodwill why not give him an indulgence to encourage good Christian behavior? If I remember my "Reformation" history correctly I believe the indulgence Luther took particular offense to was one the Pope had set up to refurnish St. Peter's. Any Catholic who donated a small amount of money to help clean up the Basilica was granted an indulgence. What exactly was the problem with that?[/quote]

The problem was not that simple. The indulgence problem became to the point that some Churches actually posted lists of sins with the "cost" to get the indulgence to get rid of them. The missed the point of purification.

Indulgences (from my understanding) are not "tickets" out of purgatory, rather, they are ways to purify oneself and in turn, the length of purgatory is lessened. It is not the "buying" of time, but rather the sacrifice that purifies our souls while we are on earth.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1469121' date='Feb 26 2008, 06:59 AM']I just sent him an email telling him my son will be pulled from the class this week. I think a month and a half is sufficient time to answer.[/quote]
i think you have this in the wrong thread

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1467539' date='Feb 23 2008, 01:39 AM']There actually was nothing wrong with the system set up to distribute indulgences back then. The idea was if a Catholic was going to donate money to either the Church or some other charitable organization of goodwill why not give him an indulgence to encourage good Christian behavior? If I remember my "Reformation" history correctly I believe the indulgence Luther took particular offense to was one the Pope had set up to refurnish St. Peter's. Any Catholic who donated a small amount of money to help clean up the Basilica was granted an indulgence. What exactly was the problem with that?[/quote]

You must not know the phrase, "When in the can a coin clings, from purgatory a soul springs."

One of the priests commissioned by the pope building St. Peter's came up with catchy little tunes like this one to sell indulgences, telling people that these monetary exchanges literally delivered souls from purgatory. Whether it was the last two pence you had after drinking the rest away in drunken debauchery didn't matter. Their only concern was raking in the money, making them the Middle Age predecessors to the televangelists on TBN. Martin Luther was right to stand up against this evil practice, but obviously he went wrong in abandoning the Church.

At any rate, TBN and the 700 Club are not fair representations of Protestantism.

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1469118' date='Feb 26 2008, 12:20 PM']Schuler may not be considered orthodox but he was duping people, poor people, out of money. Pentecostals of the trinitarian type are still considered Christian. So what is your point. As far as I know baker and Swagart were trinitarian. Swagard was actually Assembly of God if my memory serves me correct. Again where is the outcry against them. Yet Catholics aren't even considered Christains by many of these anti-Catholics and yet they keep pounding the drum. As far as protestants being paid professionals, that is all well and good. This thread isn't so much a criticism of them making a decent living. But the story always goes that the Catholic Church is making big money off the poor through indulgences and stipends and anullments. Yet I don't see it in the lives of the preists and bishops.[/quote]

Plenty of outcry from Protestants against televangelists (Charismatics and Schuller). The story doesn't always go any certain way. Have you googled their names?

As far as my point.....my first post was my point. Pentecostalists. Anything else is just back-and-forth with you.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1469118' date='Feb 26 2008, 09:50 AM']But the story always goes that the Catholic Church is making big money off the poor through indulgences and stipends and anullments. Yet I don't see it in the lives of the preists and bishops.[/quote]

What about in Latin America?

[BG45]

Just an observation; kinda silly of one, but goes to show the differences. If I turn on EWTN I see rather spartan sets. If I turn on TBN I see huge gaudy gold throne chairs, huge stages, The whole indulgences issue kinda came to mind once flipping between the two, because of the indulgences Luther protested funding the building of a magnificent structure (St. Peter's.). Almost ironic the Protestant channel has more "bling" than the Catholic one then.

Question on indulgences as people go on about Purgatory? I thought that indulgences were relief in a temporal sense because in the old days, penance was harsher? Such as so many days only bread and water for adultery and such; and that an indulgence granted so many days off of that (besides Feast Days). Is that the case with indulgences?

Thanks in advance, just my small look into the matter and catching some segments of Web of Faith.

[Paddington]

[quote name='BG45' post='1470168' date='Feb 27 2008, 09:35 PM']Question on indulgences as people go on about Purgatory? I thought that indulgences were relief in a temporal sense because in the old days, penance was harsher? Such as so many days only bread and water for adultery and such; and that an indulgence granted so many days off of that (besides Feast Days). Is that the case with indulgences?[/quote]

I remember Scott Hahn saying exactly that. EDIT: But, not in a way that you had to have committed certain sins to go for the indulgence.

BTW, I agree with you about TBN's "bling."

Edited February 28, 2008 by Paddington

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='BG45' post='1470168' date='Feb 27 2008, 07:05 PM']Just an observation; kinda silly of one, but goes to show the differences. If I turn on EWTN I see rather spartan sets. If I turn on TBN I see huge gaudy gold throne chairs, huge stages, The whole indulgences issue kinda came to mind once flipping between the two, because of the indulgences Luther protested funding the building of a magnificent structure (St. Peter's.). Almost ironic the Protestant channel has more "bling" than the Catholic one then.[/quote]

Yes, it is interesting, but we all know that most Protestants and their churches look more like the EWTN set than TBN's.

[quote name='BG45' post='1470168' date='Feb 27 2008, 07:05 PM']Question on indulgences as people go on about Purgatory? I thought that indulgences were relief in a temporal sense because in the old days, penance was harsher? Such as so many days only bread and water for adultery and such; and that an indulgence granted so many days off of that (besides Feast Days). Is that the case with indulgences?[/quote]

Yes, I believe that's the idea. I think the indulgence can also be applied in the spiritual sense. Honestly, I don't understand indulgences that well... however they work, God works it out in the end. I believe in them, obviously, but gaining an indulgence never has been high on my priority list. After all, there is that little fine print that you only receive the indulgence inasmuch you are detached from sin in your heart. Knowing that I have some very strong attachments, seems my time is better spent in Confession, receiving the Eucharist, praying, and reading Scripture.

My issue is partly because indulgences are often promoted to appeal to our selfish nature by emphasizing what you get. I won't claim not to be a selfish person, but trying to get my 40 acres doesn't concern me much. /

[BG45]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1470198' date='Feb 27 2008, 08:01 PM']I remember Scott Hahn saying exactly that. EDIT: But, not in a way that you had to have committed certain sins to go for the indulgence.

BTW, I agree with you about TBN's "bling."[/quote]

Probably where I heard it then. If I had to guess at least. And thanks...I cannot watch TBN because of it for the most part. I think the only thing I've ever watched on the network without cringing was a film called "Another Day With a Perfect Stranger" or something like that.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470288' date='Feb 27 2008, 09:51 PM']Yes, it is interesting, but we all know that most Protestants and their churches look more like the EWTN set than TBN's.[/quote]

Agreed, almost every church I've been in would bear more resemblance to EWTN's sets. In fact, I can think of one off the top of my head that bore more resemblance to TBN; and it's quite ridiculed in the community as many have pointed out in this thread, regarding opulence often being scorned amongst Protestant churches. On a side note: I will never go back there again, nothing can ever be paid enough for me to even consider it.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470288' date='Feb 27 2008, 09:51 PM']Yes, I believe that's the idea. I think the indulgence can also be applied in the spiritual sense. Honestly, I don't understand indulgences that well... however they work, God works it out in the end. I believe in them, obviously, but gaining an indulgence never has been high on my priority list. After all, there is that little fine print that you only receive the indulgence inasmuch you are detached from sin in your heart. Knowing that I have some very strong attachments, seems my time is better spent in Confession, receiving the Eucharist, praying, and reading Scripture.

My issue is partly because indulgences are often promoted to appeal to our selfish nature by emphasizing what you get. I won't claim not to be a selfish person, but trying to get my 40 acres doesn't concern me much. /[/quote]

I agree that it might appeal to selfish nature, and I'd heard about the fine print before. During Luther's time a lot of German parishes were, as pointed out early in the thread, selling them like candy without really mentioning that fine print. If one would follow the "fine print" as it were, I'd see no fault in the practice, because, much as you said, I trust in God to work such things out in the end, not my own fallible understandings.