Leaving The Church

[pianoanda123]

I joined the church with all concineous upon entering high school after finally figuring out how to prove to myself there is a God.

I decided catholic was the way to go, because it had been boasted that all their practices and beliefs were rooted in some solid foundation.

Eagerly I adapted the steps, while even more so went searching to believe the way they do.

The further I have inquired though, the more distress full I have become.

With a list of questions that not so much the fear of it being long, but the stammering fact of being turned away from friend, church mate, family, professors, and yes even catholic preisits, with no answer but instead being called ignorant and stupid.

As one presit put it when I asked him "how does Noah demonstrate a just and loving God?" Upon my immediate inquiry to his very swisscheesed explanation he said, "Do not return until you have the answers for me." As well as the other catholic preset, "Come back when it makes sense."

I find that everything written while inspiring and touching, when paired with actions in my life and others, specific incidents ans well as entire existences, it is disturbing and panicking when the most essential of factors can not be answered.

So

I have decided to leave the Catholic church, for the following reasons:
-The only reason I feel compelled to go to Mass is that I am seen as a horrible person if I do not
-The Church has turned me away by it's multiple members
-The Church has turned a deaf ear to my specific requests for explanation (the continue just to give some article instead of explain it them self)
-I have not been shown in any section of my life, where God has acted in kindness, or cruelty, but instead I am greatly ignored.
-The church makes everything catch 22 "We have free will, that God has no control over, though he knows EVERYTHING we have are, or will do in and out of our life"
-Bible passages make no sense, "Noah"
-St.'s make little sense "Joan of Arc"
-The church refuses to admit they have screwed up: Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Fueling further conflict, ridiculous laws.
-Flawless God, who has no errors, of which I can not connect in any way. A perfect God, a prefect Mary, again a fiugure unable to be connected with in any way shape or form.
-A Bias God
-A Non-universal God (no one has that)
-Rejection by family for not understanding Catholic beliefs
-In ability to make sense out of the CCC
-REpeative questioning is seen as her icy and unnatural
-Members always either turn away or default to "pray about it" or "thats why it's called faith" after boasting their reasons are clear to see.

And biggest of all, I do not feel safe at all believing in some wounder full god who ignores me so, and ladies and gentleman, I have told my story a hundred times, and still no singular human being has produced anything other than "Well wait longer" even though it says "god will comfort those who truly need him"

I have been to suicide, and rescued by the thoughts after praying of "God doesn't not Love you Satan will not take you, no one wants you neither here on earth nor after death, Death will be no different from now"

Anyways,
I do not want to leave the church because I'm a coward (which is another reason TO LEAVE the Church)


So thats all, I jsut need to stop being the nice guy that continually gets used by women, and men alike, and start being for myself.

And the first step is to leave an organization that says I have nothing to offer to the world, to leave an organization of a bias God who denies I and many others.

Take Care

[rkwright]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474540' date='Mar 9 2008, 01:56 AM']I joined the church with all concineous upon entering high school after finally figuring out how to prove to myself there is a God.

I decided catholic was the way to go, because it had been boasted that all their practices and beliefs were rooted in some solid foundation.

Eagerly I adapted the steps, while even more so went searching to believe the way they do.

The further I have inquired though, the more distress full I have become.

With a list of questions that not so much the fear of it being long, but the stammering fact of being turned away from friend, church mate, family, professors, and yes even catholic preisits, with no answer but instead being called ignorant and stupid.

As one presit put it when I asked him "how does Noah demonstrate a just and loving God?" Upon my immediate inquiry to his very swisscheesed explanation he said, "Do not return until you have the answers for me." As well as the other catholic preset, "Come back when it makes sense."

I find that everything written while inspiring and touching, when paired with actions in my life and others, specific incidents ans well as entire existences, it is disturbing and panicking when the most essential of factors can not be answered.

So[/quote]
Well I don't know if you've already decided or if you'll even be looking at responses, but I'll give it a shot anyways...

[quote]I have decided to leave the Catholic church, for the following reasons:
-The only reason I feel compelled to go to Mass is that I am seen as a horrible person if I do not[/quote]
May I ask; have you ever been to Mass completely on your own? Maybe not on a Sunday, not with your family. Some week day without the idea of 'Sunday obligation' and without anyone else to worry about. Try that once before you decide fully. Why try it? Go there and tell God, even if you don't think He is listening, how you're feeling on all this; see what kind of response you get. But make sure its a time where you are in full control of the choice to go, with no pressure or obligations.
[quote]-The Church has turned me away by it's multiple members
-The Church has turned a deaf ear to my specific requests for explanation (the continue just to give some article instead of explain it them self)[/quote]
Sorry to hear that. People are sinful, even within the Church. Not every Priest is an expert in every type of theology. I often took very complex questions to priests and would get similar answers. The answers are out there, but the priests have very busy lives attending to the needs of the people; its pretty hard to be very well studied and maintain a parish all the time. Not saying its impossible, and you'll find some that can do it all.
[quote]-I have not been shown in any section of my life, where God has acted in kindness, or cruelty, but instead I am greatly ignored.[/quote]
Life goes by. We really have to be looking for God. If we don't we'll miss him. Why were you born to the parents you were born to?
[quote]-The church makes everything catch 22 "We have free will, that God has no control over, though he knows EVERYTHING we have are, or will do in and out of our life"[/quote]
Thats a pretty major issue. There are a lot of very smart people here who can help with that issue; I wrote a term paper a while back for my philosophy class on free will. Many others have offered explanations. Have you read Augustine's response?
I don't want to belittle your question, its a very important question; but it has been asked for centuries. There are answers out there. Don't give up so quickly.
[quote]-Bible passages make no sense, "Noah"
-St.'s make little sense "Joan of Arc"[/quote]
Not sure what you mean here?
[quote]-The church refuses to admit they have screwed up: Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Fueling further conflict, ridiculous laws.[/quote]
I think John PaulII came out and somewhat 'apologized' for the Crusades?
Its also important to remember what the Church is fallible on and what it is infallible on. No one claims that everything the people of the Church do is always right and good, but there are certain things that are done without error.
[quote]-Flawless God, who has no errors, of which I can not connect in any way. A perfect God, a prefect Mary, again a fiugure unable to be connected with in any way shape or form.
-A Bias God
-A Non-universal God (no one has that)
-Rejection by family for not understanding Catholic beliefs
-In ability to make sense out of the CCC
-REpeative questioning is seen as her icy and unnatural
-Members always either turn away or default to "pray about it" or "thats why it's called faith" after boasting their reasons are clear to see.[/quote]
A hope we can help with some of your questions, hang on for a while...

[Archaeology cat]

I'll have to make this quick for now, but I have a bit of an argument regarding the fact that we have free will and that God also knows everything. For one, I know that my husband's cat, if he gets on the dresser, will knock off the bottle of hand sanitizer I have there. I know it, and it happens every time if I don't put the bottle somewhere else. Did I cause him to do it? I know that my son will drop his toy before he does it, because I can see what he's going to do. Did I cause him to do it? I can intervene and catch it so that I don't have to pick it up off the floor, but he's still going to let go of it, regardless of what I do. While no analogy or example is ever perfect, I think this somewhat demonstrates that one can know what is going to happen without causing it to happen.

[pianoanda123]

I had attended mass for 4 years on my own, biking 5 miles in one direction. With no family to accompany, and no friends to meet with. So yes I have gone on my own, every single time.

I have gone and said "Hey God I'm here....blah" and what I get is a gospel in code that I can't make sense of and a preist who talkes about boorish sports.

I returned to one preist for a period of 6 months, and at the end they gave up on me. I think thats enough time.

I was born to the parents I was born to, because two socially inept people thoguth sex was a good idea for a 4th time, and that it jsut happened. That I was the "object" not a human, just something that happened, and would be cared of, by feeding and clothing and housing. I suffered mental and emotional islation/abuse for 19 years, and I still suffer daily as I try to tell myself "No God does love me" but the responding comments are ...indesputable, so I'm waiting for God to make a good point.

GReat, you wrote a paper, and some st. talked about it. Teach me. Ok? Jsut dont' TELL me, teach me. Yes I've read less than 100 st.'s opinions on free will. and they all say the same, "But ice will melt and water will steam, yet unknown how, the almighty rests easys." or similar.

quickly?......quickly?.....QUICKLY? 4 years...hows that...thats the span covered...actual time spent in the past month...oh 6 hours a day....for 4 months...ummm. Yea I go insane when I keep getting turned away and not a single person can say anything other than "have you read this" "NO I DON"T WANT TO FLIPPING READ< GIVE ME YOUR WORDS< IF YOU CXAN NOT EXPLAIN IT IT MUST NOT HAVE BEEN CONVICNING!"


"I think John PaulII came out and somewhat 'apologized' for the Crusades?
Its also important to remember what the Church is fallible on and what it is infallible on. No one claims that everything the people of the Church do is always right and good, but there are certain things that are done without error. "

Ok right there...catch22...an answer of nothing, please actually answer the question. Thanks, it would be amazing if you actually could. "it is falliable...BUT certain are not falliable." wow...magic magic. Thanks for illistrating my point.

SO pick a question and attack it in an e-mail, becuase else wise, it makes no sense.

I am giving a week to learn jsut soem basic answers, if not I'm going aginst all the lies bestowed upon me that furth complicated my psyche.

Because well God would want us to spread the word. My word is wit the masses "Catholics are a blind joke."

If everony can ACCEPT things so easily, why can't you or anyone else jsut SAY IT?!?!?!?!?!

"It's been debated for centuaries" so what is it?

PErhaps you can see it from my life, invision being ignored by someone who comforts, cares and waits for everyone else. And all they can say is, "Are you listening" and you can sit in silence for decades and cut off your limbs so you sit cegtable, and still be rejected.

Meh, thats jsut me. 1 week.

Good lord this topic gets me flamed I swear.

And best of all, I have NEVER been comforted by Catholic's belifs, they're very intimidating and fear provoking.

I don't want to be a part of Ivan IV's reign.

[pianoanda123]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1474548' date='Mar 9 2008, 05:39 AM']I'll have to make this quick for now, but I have a bit of an argument regarding the fact that we have free will and that God also knows everything. For one, I know that my husband's cat, if he gets on the dresser, will knock off the bottle of hand sanitizer I have there. I know it, and it happens every time if I don't put the bottle somewhere else. Did I cause him to do it? I know that my son will drop his toy before he does it, because I can see what he's going to do. Did I cause him to do it? I can intervene and catch it so that I don't have to pick it up off the floor, but he's still going to let go of it, regardless of what I do. While no analogy or example is ever perfect, I think this somewhat demonstrates that one can know what is going to happen without causing it to happen.[/quote]

It's a good attempt.

But still you do not KNOW 100% the cat is goign to knock the bottle off. You've got years and years of experience. But if someone said about you "She never gives up on anyone, no matter how many times they misbehave" well sayng that cat WILL do it's deed, and you KNWO it's going to happen. Thats cutting the being short, in this case the cat.

Thats what God did in the story of Noah, look at it. They screwed up so many dang times...so he said "I 'know' what they're going to do", and took em all out. NOw, why do peopel say "God will alwyas forgive us, God will alwyas wait, God never jumps to conclusions?"

Yea, I dont' like that.

But it's a good example, jsut need an example where some states "While I do not KNOW what is going to happen....this is why..." thats all.

thanks!

[Theologian in Training]

One observation and then I have to go say Mass. If you truly wanted to leave, you would not have searched out a Catholic forum and posted it for all to see. You are still searching, whether you want to admit that or not, and you are hoping to find answers.

If you need anyone to talk to, PM me.

God Bless

Fr. Brian

[rkwright]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474549' date='Mar 9 2008, 04:16 AM']GReat, you wrote a paper, and some st. talked about it. Teach me. Ok? Jsut dont' TELL me, teach me. Yes I've read less than 100 st.'s opinions on free will. and they all say the same, "But ice will melt and water will steam, yet unknown how, the almighty rests easys." or similar.

quickly?......quickly?.....QUICKLY? 4 years...hows that...thats the span covered...actual time spent in the past month...oh 6 hours a day....for 4 months...ummm. Yea I go insane when I keep getting turned away and not a single person can say anything other than "have you read this" "NO I DON"T WANT TO FLIPPING READ< GIVE ME YOUR WORDS< IF YOU CXAN NOT EXPLAIN IT IT MUST NOT HAVE BEEN CONVICNING!"[/quote]
No need to get hostile over it.
Arch Cat's explanation is on the spot; knowledge does not equal causation. You say but you don't know 100%. Why should that matter? It doesn't change the premises; knowledge, no matter how much does not equal causation. If you are 50% sure something is going to happen, or even 99%; it doesn't matter you don't cause that thing to happen. I will tell you, with a 100% certainty, I will post in this thread again; now you have knowledge, now ask yourself 'Did I cause rkwright to post?'
I know X will happen with 100% certainty. All I can say from that is that X will happen. It doesn't mean I caused it or prevented it or even saw it.
I know X will freely happen with 100% certainty. That should make it clearer.
There are other explanations given also; I know Rev has a interesting one. The one I wrote my paper on is a little different. But see what problems you have in the above and get back to us. If you do believe that you knowledge of something entails that something's causation, show us how.

[quote]"I think John PaulII came out and somewhat 'apologized' for the Crusades?
Its also important to remember what the Church is fallible on and what it is infallible on. No one claims that everything the people of the Church do is always right and good, but there are certain things that are done without error. "

Ok right there...catch22...an answer of nothing, please actually answer the question. Thanks, it would be amazing if you actually could. "it is falliable...BUT certain are not falliable." wow...magic magic. Thanks for illistrating my point.[/quote]
How is that a catch 22? If I say 'there are somethings I am infallible on, and somethings I am not', now I'm a magician? I have two legs - infallible. My account name is rkwright - infallible. I believe Texas A&M is the greatest - fallible. Why is that a catch 22 or magic?

The Church teaches that Jesus was fully divine and fully man. Infallible teaching. People in the Church have also taught that the crusades were ok. Fallible. There are certain requirements when the Church speaks infallibly; all the bishops speaking as one, has to be about faith and morals; the Pope when he expounds on dogma in regards to faith and morals.

To put very briefly, the dogmas of the Church are infallible, other teachings may be fallible. I might be a little narrow in my explanation and maybe someone with more knowledge can back me up on this.

[rkwright]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474551' date='Mar 9 2008, 04:20 AM']It's a good attempt.

But still you do not KNOW 100% the cat is goign to knock the bottle off. You've got years and years of experience. But if someone said about you "She never gives up on anyone, no matter how many times they misbehave" well sayng that cat WILL do it's deed, and you KNWO it's going to happen. Thats cutting the being short, in this case the cat.

Thats what God did in the story of Noah, look at it. They screwed up so many dang times...so he said "I 'know' what they're going to do", and took em all out. NOw, why do peopel say "God will alwyas forgive us, God will alwyas wait, God never jumps to conclusions?"

Yea, I dont' like that.

But it's a good example, jsut need an example where some states "While I do not KNOW what is going to happen....this is why..." thats all.

thanks![/quote]
See heres my second response
I think there is some problem in what people are telling you. Yes God will always forgive no matter how many times. But God is not always going to 'wait'. There comes a time when you are held accountable.
So does God ever give up on someone? No. Does God judge someone at some time? Yes. Theres no giving up there; at that point the work is done.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474540' date='Mar 9 2008, 02:56 AM']I joined the church with all concineous upon entering high school after finally figuring out how to prove to myself there is a God.

I decided catholic was the way to go, because it had been boasted that all their practices and beliefs were rooted in some solid foundation.

Eagerly I adapted the steps, while even more so went searching to believe the way they do.

The further I have inquired though, the more distress full I have become.

With a list of questions that not so much the fear of it being long, but the stammering fact of being turned away from friend, church mate, family, professors, and yes even catholic preisits, with no answer but instead being called ignorant and stupid.

As one presit put it when I asked him "how does Noah demonstrate a just and loving God?" Upon my immediate inquiry to his very swisscheesed explanation he said, "Do not return until you have the answers for me." As well as the other catholic preset, "Come back when it makes sense."

I find that everything written while inspiring and touching, when paired with actions in my life and others, specific incidents ans well as entire existences, it is disturbing and panicking when the most essential of factors can not be answered.

So

I have decided to leave the Catholic church, for the following reasons:
-The only reason I feel compelled to go to Mass is that I am seen as a horrible person if I do not
-The Church has turned me away by it's multiple members
-The Church has turned a deaf ear to my specific requests for explanation (the continue just to give some article instead of explain it them self)
-I have not been shown in any section of my life, where God has acted in kindness, or cruelty, but instead I am greatly ignored.
-The church makes everything catch 22 "We have free will, that God has no control over, though he knows EVERYTHING we have are, or will do in and out of our life"
-Bible passages make no sense, "Noah"
-St.'s make little sense "Joan of Arc"
-The church refuses to admit they have screwed up: Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Fueling further conflict, ridiculous laws.
-Flawless God, who has no errors, of which I can not connect in any way. A perfect God, a prefect Mary, again a fiugure unable to be connected with in any way shape or form.
-A Bias God
-A Non-universal God (no one has that)
-Rejection by family for not understanding Catholic beliefs
-In ability to make sense out of the CCC
-REpeative questioning is seen as her icy and unnatural
-Members always either turn away or default to "pray about it" or "thats why it's called faith" after boasting their reasons are clear to see.

And biggest of all, I do not feel safe at all believing in some wounder full god who ignores me so, and ladies and gentleman, I have told my story a hundred times, and still no singular human being has produced anything other than "Well wait longer" even though it says "god will comfort those who truly need him"

I have been to suicide, and rescued by the thoughts after praying of "God doesn't not Love you Satan will not take you, no one wants you neither here on earth nor after death, Death will be no different from now"

Anyways,
I do not want to leave the church because I'm a coward (which is another reason TO LEAVE the Church)
So thats all, I jsut need to stop being the nice guy that continually gets used by women, and men alike, and start being for myself.

And the first step is to leave an organization that says I have nothing to offer to the world, to leave an organization of a bias God who denies I and many others.

Take Care[/quote]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474549' date='Mar 9 2008, 05:16 AM']I had attended mass for 4 years on my own, biking 5 miles in one direction. With no family to accompany, and no friends to meet with. So yes I have gone on my own, every single time.

I have gone and said "Hey God I'm here....blah" and what I get is a gospel in code that I can't make sense of and a preist who talkes about boorish sports.

I returned to one preist for a period of 6 months, and at the end they gave up on me. I think thats enough time.

I was born to the parents I was born to, because two socially inept people thoguth sex was a good idea for a 4th time, and that it jsut happened. That I was the "object" not a human, just something that happened, and would be cared of, by feeding and clothing and housing. I suffered mental and emotional islation/abuse for 19 years, and I still suffer daily as I try to tell myself "No God does love me" but the responding comments are ...indesputable, so I'm waiting for God to make a good point.

GReat, you wrote a paper, and some st. talked about it. Teach me. Ok? Jsut dont' TELL me, teach me. Yes I've read less than 100 st.'s opinions on free will. and they all say the same, "But ice will melt and water will steam, yet unknown how, the almighty rests easys." or similar.

quickly?......quickly?.....QUICKLY? 4 years...hows that...thats the span covered...actual time spent in the past month...oh 6 hours a day....for 4 months...ummm. Yea I go insane when I keep getting turned away and not a single person can say anything other than "have you read this" "NO I DON"T WANT TO FLIPPING READ< GIVE ME YOUR WORDS< IF YOU CXAN NOT EXPLAIN IT IT MUST NOT HAVE BEEN CONVICNING!"
"I think John PaulII came out and somewhat 'apologized' for the Crusades?
Its also important to remember what the Church is fallible on and what it is infallible on. No one claims that everything the people of the Church do is always right and good, but there are certain things that are done without error. "

Ok right there...catch22...an answer of nothing, please actually answer the question. Thanks, it would be amazing if you actually could. "it is falliable...BUT certain are not falliable." wow...magic magic. Thanks for illistrating my point.

SO pick a question and attack it in an e-mail, becuase else wise, it makes no sense.

I am giving a week to learn jsut soem basic answers, if not I'm going aginst all the lies bestowed upon me that furth complicated my psyche.

Because well God would want us to spread the word. My word is wit the masses "Catholics are a blind joke."

If everony can ACCEPT things so easily, why can't you or anyone else jsut SAY IT?!?!?!?!?!

"It's been debated for centuaries" so what is it?

PErhaps you can see it from my life, invision being ignored by someone who comforts, cares and waits for everyone else. And all they can say is, "Are you listening" and you can sit in silence for decades and cut off your limbs so you sit cegtable, and still be rejected.

Meh, thats jsut me. 1 week.

Good lord this topic gets me flamed I swear.

And best of all, I have NEVER been comforted by Catholic's belifs, they're very intimidating and fear provoking.

I don't want to be a part of Ivan IV's reign.[/quote]


I know you and I got off to a bad start in another thread. I have a tendency to be blunt.

From analyzing your post, you sound like you have been born into a bad situation in life. You are not alone in that situation; I probably have had to go through worse than 99.999999% of the people on this board. Please do not dismiss or drive away those who may have "been there, done that". I gather that you are young and at a crisis point in your life.

You say you want to be taught. That is good, but....are you willing to shut up, listen, and learn? Are you willing to be told you are wrong without getting hostile (especially if you take Fr. Brian up on his offer)? If you erroneously believe 2+2=3, and are corrected with 2+2=4, are you willing to adjust your thinking and accept 2+2=4? The reason I ask this is that, as rkwright alluded to, there is hostility in your posts, as well as evidence of impatience. Please ask yourself if that is what is causing the priests and others to dismiss you, because human nature being what it is, when confronted with hostility, there is a "fight or flight" response that we are pre-programmed with.

And yes, you do need to learn patience. It is not going to happen overnight, in 6 months, or 4 years. I am an adult who attended a high school seminary, have a college degree, discerned diocesan priesthood, and am established in a professional career, and you know what....I"M STILL LEARNING!!!! And so is everyone else on this board, in this Church, and on this planet. And as we learn, we see that some of tesee "ridiculous laws" are not so ridiculous after all, but have very valid reasons and are for our benefit (especially the laws regarding sexual morality) and keep us from doing stupid things that can harm us.

Are you a male or female? At the church you attend, are there any people your age that you can socialize with? Do you get enough sleep and exercise?

Edited March 9, 2008 by Norseman82

[mortify]

I think you're driven more by anger and pride than anything else. Understanding matters of Faith and scripture is more than an intellectual exercise, it requires purity of spirit and sanctifying grace. The greatest intellect will not be able to see what the simplest of Saints is able to see in the bible, because if we are not pure our intellect is clouded. You need to be humble, realize your own human limitations and then realize you are dependent on God for everything. I know my limitations, I know I'm not the brightest person in the world, and I know my small and inferior intellect could never comprehend the ways of God, who is beyond this universe. So asking questions like, "How is the destruction of people in the time of Noah just?" is unwarranted. He ultimately kills us all, whether through natural death or some other means, and we don't have a right to question Him. He is our Creator, not the other way around. Secondly, you have to realize physical death is not the worst thing, we also have a soul that will survive physical death and that is what we truly need to focus on. With regards to the nonsense you see in Catholics, whether priest or otherwise, you have to realize there is a difference between Catholicism and Catholics.

I'm drawn to something you said earlier, that you believed in God because you found it reasonable to do so. This further confirms in my mind that you approached everything through your human nature. Faith is not a person coming to a reasonable conclusion about God, its a *response* to God's invitation. If you ever had faith, it was not your own, but a gift from Jesus Christ who chose you to be one of His followers. That is truly a beautiful thing if one reflects on it, and to throw it away is truly an act of self damnation. How can you throw away the invitation of the Son of God to be with Him in His kingdom forever? It at least deserves serious and LONG THOUGHT reflection since the consequences are so great.

Dear friend, I encourage you pray and think very hard. God desires us to be with Him and He will not cast you out if you sincerely desire Him. There is nothing that you have said that warrants apostasy, you only need to pray, be humble, and learn and in time you will receive the answers you desire.


God bless

[prose]

Well, I think the fact that people who you do not know still care about you and your outcome is an indicator that someone more powerful cares for you also.

I understand your frustration. It is sooooo hard to wait for God to respond or give us the sign we think we need when we feel so desperate for it right now. I think most people have experienced that desperation at one time or another.

In any case, I am able to accept some things more easily that you seem to (you asked that if anyone just accepted things to just say it). Mostly because everything I have questioned in the past have had answers that I could understand, and I sort of think God is bigger than me, so I probably won't ever understand EVERYTHING. So I basically have to go on my own faith sometimes. I believe, I continue to learn, and I grow in my faith. I don't BLINDLY accept everything, but I do find reason for the things I object to, and I have faith in a Church that I have spent so much time learning about.

I think it is sad that you have had the experiences that you have had. Maybe you should consider taking a semester of Religious Studies? Perhaps then you would get some of the answers you are seeking in an academic surrounding that is condusive to you asking questions and finding answers.

I would love to chat with you personally about this, so feel free to PM me. I can give you the answers that I know, and I can provided support to you in this time.

Good luck.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474540' date='Mar 9 2008, 02:56 AM']-Flawless God, who has no errors, of which I can not connect in any way. A perfect God, a prefect Mary, again a fiugure unable to be connected with in any way shape or form.
-A Bias God
-A Non-universal God (no one has that)
-Rejection by family for not understanding Catholic beliefs
-In ability to make sense out of the CCC
-REpeative questioning is seen as her icy and unnatural
-Members always either turn away or default to "pray about it" or "thats why it's called faith" after boasting their reasons are clear to see.

And biggest of all, I do not feel safe at all believing in some wounder full god who ignores me so, and ladies and gentleman, I have told my story a hundred times, and still no singular human being has produced anything other than "Well wait longer" even though it says "god will comfort those who truly need him"[/quote]

There is a verse in a song that might help you a bit right now. It is based on a psalm but I don't know which one right now. It is a prayer actually.

When I am blind and I cannot see
When all life's troubles sweep over me
When I am in darkness and all I see is me
Be with me Lord

Be with me Lord
Be with me my Lord
When I am in trouble and I don't know where to go
Be with me Lord

I will pray for you.

[AgnosticExtremist]

Boy, do I know the feeling of something might not being true. But seriously, I felt much the same way as you at one point in my life. I had once been named the Catholic Leader for all of the city I live in, but a trip to China really changed my life.

I started to question the Church after reading the book 101 Ethical Dilemas. I began to see that each religion (with the possible exception of Buddhism) believes that theirs is the only true way to God, Allah, Yahweh, Bramen whoever. That is something I don't like, and it seems to be the cause of much of the troubles in the middle east.

Now, I'm not sure if you are questioning the existence of a god, or if catholicism is the 'right' path to him, but my suggestion would be to dive into the world of philosophy. For example, David Hume showed us that even if a cat jumps into a cabinet, you cannot prove that the cat is not going reorganize it and then jump down without spilling anything.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that its obvious that the fine people of phatmass are more than willing to take you back anytime you feel you're ready, but now is the time to explore, and find what makes sense to you. There is so much out there that isn't neccesarilly required reading for Catholics, like Spirits Rebellios by Khalil Gibram or Cats Cradle by Kurt Vunngaut.

It is great to explore, just remember to keep an open mind!

Cheers

[farglefeezlebut]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474540' date='Mar 9 2008, 07:56 AM']I have been to suicide, and rescued by the thoughts after praying of "God doesn't not Love you Satan will not take you, no one wants you neither here on earth nor after death, Death will be no different from now"

Anyways,
I do not want to leave the church because I'm a coward (which is another reason TO LEAVE the Church)
So thats all, I jsut need to stop being the nice guy that continually gets used by women, and men alike, and start being for myself.

And the first step is to leave an organization that says I have nothing to offer to the world, to leave an organization of a bias God who denies I and many others.[/quote]

It sounds liek you're depressed and your conception of God is being twisted by your illness. I don't know how you can make this go away. I am going through similar stuff and I don't know how it can be stopped, but I suggest you see a doctor and tell hm/her about your suicidal thoughts.

Take care of yourself.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474549' date='Mar 9 2008, 06:16 AM']I have gone and said "Hey God I'm here....blah" and what I get is a gospel in code that I can't make sense of and a preist who talkes about boorish sports.[/quote]

This is exactly why good preaching is so desperately needed. It's probably the greatest problem in the American Catholic Church.

[quote name='pianoanda123' post='1474549' date='Mar 9 2008, 06:16 AM']I was born to the parents I was born to, because two socially inept people thoguth sex was a good idea for a 4th time, and that it jsut happened. That I was the "object" not a human, just something that happened, and would be cared of, by feeding and clothing and housing. I suffered mental and emotional islation/abuse for 19 years, and I still suffer daily as I try to tell myself "No God does love me" but the responding comments are ...indesputable, so I'm waiting for God to make a good point.[/quote]

FWIW, Catholicism is the one faith that always affirms the sacredness of human life and that nobody should ever be objectified. The world wants to love objects like people and treat people like objects, and that attitude seeps into Christian communities and churches too often. The only person you can ultimately turn to is Christ, but I think in approaching the Catholic Church, maybe you've tried to bite off more than you were prepared to chew. My suggestion is to simply read some of Jesus' parables and encounters with people like the Samaritan woman at the well, Zaccheaus, and those other "simple" stories. Scripture is place where God most often speaks to us personally. Give it a fresh start and ask God to speak to your heart.

After all, if God isn't speaking to your heart, Christianity becomes a bunch of nonsense rules.

[Fidei Defensor]

Welcome to the "dark side." No matter what anyone tells you, you aren't a bad person or "damned" for making this decision. You can only live the best you know, and this is the decision you've made.

[Paddington]

Pianoanda,

Sorry if any of this doesn't hit the spot. I'm a skeptic too and hope I can help a little.
I hope you keep studying and reflecting in private. Conversations are very hit-and-miss.
Prose and Father made good offers tho.
It seems 100% worth it to try to flip around revulsions to Christianity one at a time. That's all anybody can do barring a religious experience. You either become right or stay right.
If anybody tells you that you don't believe what they believe because you are not as pure or humble as them, then ignore it. Even if they turn out to be right, how in the world does that help? For one thing it sounds fishy. For another thing you can pick some people out of any religion to tell you that.
I hope you do not give up the Catholic habit of admonishing yourself for things that you truly believe are wrong tho.

Peace,
Paddington

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1474676' date='Mar 9 2008, 09:05 PM']Welcome to the "dark side." No matter what anyone tells you, you aren't a bad person or "damned" for making this decision. You can only live the best you know, and this is the decision you've made.[/quote]

Where you are "damned" or not is only God's business. These message boards can be a blessing and a curse at the same time, as it's great that we can all share our thoughts here, but it's difficult to respond as personally as I'm sure most of us would like to. All I know is that God will always be there for you, whenever you are ready. If Darth Vador can be redeemed, who can't?

Edited March 10, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[pianoanda123]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1474565' date='Mar 9 2008, 10:44 AM']One observation and then I have to go say Mass. If you truly wanted to leave, you would not have searched out a Catholic forum and posted it for all to see. You are still searching, whether you want to admit that or not, and you are hoping to find answers.

If you need anyone to talk to, PM me.

God Bless

Fr. Brian[/quote]

Wow, you have pined me on that one.

No way, I didn't even see it, it is all clear to me now.

Not only do I receive ridicule from preisit in person but of internet, thank you for showing that curelity is not barred by religion creed or method.

REsponder, give yourself something other than the mark of ignorance, instead of stating "weather you want to admit that or not"

how abotu ask?

Suprise? I think not.

ALso, I thank you for not reading my post for you would have seen so beaver dam blaitently that I said "I wouldn't be searchign for theses answers if..." or a paraleel version of those words.

Thank you for once again assighning my ignorance in the eyes of the blind and educated.

Take care

[pianoanda123]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1474676' date='Mar 9 2008, 09:05 PM']Welcome to the "dark side." No matter what anyone tells you, you aren't a bad person or "damned" for making this decision. You can only live the best you know, and this is the decision you've made.[/quote]

Thank you for making sense.

A persuasive point on here, of which I can not argue for your reasons are flawless in my flawed eyes.

Thank you for being one of the only people on here who actually makes sense.

And yes I mean it, this is NOT scarcasim!