Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

Sorry for not answering your questions. Hard to read through message board forum posts.

Let me see if I can answer each one as best as I can.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Are you seriously arguing that the celebration of Christmas is a moral issue?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Do you really think that the replacement of a pagan holiday with a Christian one is something to argue about?[/quote]

Considering there are examples in the Bible where the Jews destroyed pagan altars and were told by God not to conform to their custom, why has God changed in his attitude? If he hates pagan festivals to the point to say to his people destroy altars and not to involve themselves in them, why has he changed now? God doesn't change, so that is an argument you have to answer. Puritans were persucuted by the Catholic Church because they wouldn't accept Yule as a Christian Holiday.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Is that really something that all right-thinking people should oppose?[/quote]

That sounds like 1984? What is a right-thinking person? Because I don't like the fact that the Catholic Church instituted Yule as a Christian Holiday by calling it Christmas means that I am not a right-thinking person. Is that what you are saying?

Being different doesn't mean what you are intimating there.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']What about WWI and II or maybe Communism? I've heard all three blamed on Catholics by 'right-thinking' protestants and non-denominationalists and so forth.[/quote]

They're pretty much religious bigots, if they blame all the world's problems on one organization. There is just quite a few organizations all doing the wrong thing making the world the way it is. The Mystery of Babylon killed the Prophets and is guilty of all murders, and to my knowledge, the Catholic Church wasn't around back when Abel and the Prophets were around.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']I think that by your logic, anyone who follows doctrines associated with Luther should also be blamed for his blatant disregard for the poor peasants of his time, who, realizing that they should be free of the unholy authority of their feudal masters, set out to free themselves. He wrote a book urging that they all be killed. They were. He misused the influence he had over the nobility of Germany, thus all his intellectual legacy should be blemished.[/quote]

If he did (please supply sources), then I agree, he should be considered guilty of that kind of evil.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Oh, and I don't hate, appreciate to say this, but God has condoned murder somewhat similar to the Inquisition in the past. If you have read the bible cover to cover, you must remember all those commandments to Israel to slay all them who are not Israel.[/quote]

Yes I have, and I would consider the people in the promise land who threw babies into fire horrible, and should be brought to justice. I also believe people who rape children should have the same fate handed to them right now. Nothing is more important to make sure children are protected, as they are our future. Anybody selling drugs, raping or murdering young children should be brought to justice. Jesus said it is better that a 100 pound weight would be placed on their necks and to be thrown in the deepest oceans.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']You never did address anything that I said earlier. I still want to know why my belonging to an organized religion stops me from being able to get down on my own knees and know God through prayer and scripture study. The leaders of my church don't intercede any way on my behalf. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. And I am as much a priest of God as they are. They just have the keys to administer to the world.[/quote]

It doesn't, but you need to accept that God's children come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. In a world where there are billions of types of life that he has created - and yet all work together for each other's benefit, why can't his church also be like that.

Just do put your trust in a church, but in God's son. You can't have trust in both.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Considering there are examples in the Bible where the Jews destroyed pagan altars and were told by God not to conform to their custom, why has God changed in his attitude?[/quote]

This is why I don't understand Protestantism. There is a massive difference between actually taking part in paganism and offering a Christian alternative to something that is pagan. Protestants do it all the time. Super Bowl parties at church, contemporary Christian music, Christian skate parks, etc. How is the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord in any way pagan? Please, point anything out about the rite, the Gospel readings, the blessing, that it's pagan.

[quote]Jesus said it is better that a 100 pound weight would be placed on their necks and to be thrown in the deepest oceans.[/quote]

You are misquoting scripture. The passage, Matthew 18:6, warns against causing "little ones to sin". Did you know heresy and apostasy are a sin? That means if you teach others heresy or to abandon the Church Christ founded, you fall under Jesus' condemnation. Do you really trust in yourself that much?

[quote]Just do put your trust in a church, but in God's son. You can't have trust in both.[/quote]

God told us to trust his Church. Really. It's in the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:15. So if you trust in God's Son, you trust in His Church.

[Archaeology cat]

JesusIsMySuperHero,

Would you mind giving references for Catholics persecuting Puritans because of their refusal to celebrate Christmas? And as far as I can see, the Puritans were against Christmas not because of it having supplanted a pagan festival (note that it is not the celebration of a pagan festival), but because of the tendency (in England, at least) for people to get drunk during the celebration of the 12 days of Christmas. When Oliver Cromwell came to power, he outlawed the celebration of Christmas, and enforced that. So it seems like just the opposite of what you said occurred. I don't doubt that there would have been some backlash after Cromwell's death, when the monarchy was reinstated, but it doesn't seem to match the claims you're making. When I look at more recent arguments against Christmas, it is centred on Christmas not being celebrated in the Bible. Of course, it makes no sense to be sola scriptura (see the Scripture referenced in Bro Adam's post, 1 Tim 3:15), but that's another debate. But again, I see nothing of Catholics persecuting Puritans for not celebrating Christmas, so I would appreciate seeing credible sources in case I missed something.

God bless.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Archaeology cat

[dairygirl4u2c]

so what he's saying is pretty much akin to.... "i'm not christian because chrisitans have killed and you know hte fruits by the spirit" i do concede the popes should have stopped hte killings, but one could argue chrisitains could stop many atrocities but don't.

here is what it's like diaglouging with him.

"i'm not chrisitan because christians have murdered"
"yes, but not all christians kill, and chrisitainty teaches that you don't murder"
"i'm not chrisitan because chrisitans have murdered"
"and even if chrisitans could have and didn't do something when they should have, they didn't do it, and should have known better, they are sinners after all"
"i'm not christian because chrisitans have murdered"
"so are you saying that the apostles were incapable of murder? and judas doesn't count? and what about that the ible is full of the aposltes' sins? or, are you saying you wouldn't have followed them had they killed? i don't think either makes much sense... how do you justify this?"
"i'm not christian because chrisitans have murdered"
*nods and walks away...

he's bordering on obstinency and feigned ignorance. only repsonding to weak points to justify the straw man he's created. definitely not personally responsible. shake the dust (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) from your shoes and move on, i say.

Edited April 7, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1494098' date='Apr 7 2008, 08:41 AM']...
he's bordering on obstinency and feigned ignorance. only repsonding to weak points to justify the straw man he's created. definitely not personally responsible. shake the dust (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) from your shoes and move on, i say.[/quote]

Dang, Dairy. You got a tripple whammy with the April Fool's fiddler.

[dairygirl4u2c]

try typing dust (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) and see what happens.
then try editing it.
then to experiment as i did, try editing again to see if your eyes aren't playing games on you. and then try again to see if it'll add more etc etc.

Edited April 8, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[jeffpugh]

I know, I know. If you venture out side of the debate board, you'd see there is delegation about dust (the ultra-handsome) changing the filters back. I mentioned your post specifically as a reason why to change it. Anywho, continue on, people.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, i for one don't mind it, but that's just me...

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1494054' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:43 PM']This is why I don't understand Protestantism. There is a massive difference between actually taking part in paganism and offering a Christian alternative to something that is pagan. Protestants do it all the time. Super Bowl parties at church, contemporary Christian music, Christian skate parks, etc. How is the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord in any way pagan? Please, point anything out about the rite, the Gospel readings, the blessing, that it's pagan.
You are misquoting scripture. The passage, Matthew 18:6, warns against causing "little ones to sin". Did you know heresy and apostasy are a sin? That means if you teach others heresy or to abandon the Church Christ founded, you fall under Jesus' condemnation. Do you really trust in yourself that much?
God told us to trust his Church. Really. It's in the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:15. So if you trust in God's Son, you trust in His Church.[/quote]

The way you misquote me is kinda disturbing friend. I've only seen someone take half quotes a few times, and it is always to make someone look bad. You have broken a commandment with this post, as leaving only bits and pieces of what I wrote has brought a false witness against me. I would repent of your sin there, because God takes false testimony seriously.

I guess you don't want to put up the fact I say, anybody who has raped children should have a hundred pound weight put upon them and thrown in the deepest oceans. Or do you condone child rape and child pornography?

I don't put any trust in myself at all Brother Adam, because there is nothing I can do without Jesus. I only put my trust in him. He will keep me from death and hell, despite your feigned self-righteousness.

All I have to say is, if I am wrong, let the lord judge me for my wrongs. I am more than willing to let his whip teach me how to live, for I love my lord's rebuke, for it is a saving rebuke. I love his discipline. I have had to do some very hard things, because God told me it was not time to something I wanted, and it always leaves a pit in my stomach. But I know it is what is best for me, and I will gratefully accept it.

[scardella]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492857' date='Apr 4 2008, 11:29 PM']Wisdom states, evil trees can only produce evil, and good trees can only produce good fruit. Are you telling me Jesus is a liar, because what you are saying, sometimes good trees can produce evil fruit.[/quote]

The Body of Christ (aka the Church) always produces good fruit. The Church in its fullness is the Catholic Church. The Popes of the Catholic Church go back to Peter, and the bishops of the Catholic Church go back to the Apostles. As was said many times before, there was definite structure in Jesus' organization of His disciples and in the early Church after the Resurrection.

You are failing to make a distinction between actions of the Church and Her members. Her members are sinful men in need of a savior. They commit many sins, sometimes falsely using religion as a cloak. The Church itself, however, is without spot or blemish. The Church is the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom of Revelations.

In another bit of Scripture, Paul writes that Jesus is the head and the Church is the body. Can the body be in union with the head, while the body is defiled and the head is not? NO. Thus, the Church is not defiled, because she is in union with the head, Jesus Christ. You should also note that Paul refers to the members of the Church in terms of hands, feet, eyes, etc. in 1 Cor 12. These are specific structures within the human body that have unique purposes. As a matter of fact, the human body is a wonderfully complex structure, not an amorphous blob of cells. By making reference to the different roles that people play within the Body of Christ, Paul is making the case indirectly that the Church has structures supported by the different roles that members make within that Body. Roles=structure.

[quote]However, some religious bigots took it upon themselves to 'punish' protestants and jews and other non-believers. Can you see what I am going with that. For sure, there is a spirit of religion out there that masqurades as the spirit of God, convincing men and women to commit evil deeds because their religion is the truth.[/quote]

You have to prove that the religion itself is promoting evil deeds, and that's a doctrinal issue. [b]And since different religions promote wildly different things, you have to do it on a religion-by-religion basis.[/b]

[quote]But your answer gives away something I have been saying. [color="red"]I don't point any fingers at any one particular religion, but at them all.[/color] What right did the religious bigot Muslims have to kill honest men and women who wanted to go the the holy land to trace the foot steps of Jesus?[/quote]

Why? You have not proven that organized religion, [b]because[/b] it is organized religion, is somehow evil.

[quote]In a way, that is true. But that would require all of us to be automatons, thinking and acting like the Borg. I believe we can all believe a few fundamental truths, and yet debate over Purgatory. I don't personally believe in it, because Jesus' blood takes me straight to heaven, and I have been made whiter than snow. However, believing in purgatory doesn't mean you can't agree with me that Jesus' death saved us from sin? Lets agree to that.[/quote]

Actually, it would not require us to be automatons. We are not automatons because we all believe that 1+1=2. In fact, we would think someone ridiculous if they did not believe that. In the same way, we can all safely agree that WWII happened. To think otherwise would be ignoring a vast mountain of evidence.

If people believe the same thing, based on faith and reason, why would that make them like the borg?

[quote]I don't believe that. I don't believe we all have to believe every single thing that the others believe to be saved, except one thing - Jesus Christ died for our sins.

It is true people can be deceived by spirits posing as God. I know I have in my life. But that goes as far in the religious world as the non-religious world as well. Spirits certainly inspired the Muslims in the Crusades, some Catholics in the inquisitions, Popes burning people at the stake for standing against indulgences and Yule, and cult leaders in the Muslim faith who convinced men to slam planes into building. So, if spirits can convince people their religion is right to commit atrocities, why be a follower of a religion, when we can be followers of Jesus only.
But the authority isn't just with the Apostles. Actually, the more I learn about Jesus, really - he's the authority, not the Apostles. Great men of God, but they were not the authority. They were the foundation, but only Jesus is the head of the church, not Peter, not the Apostles, not the descendants of the apostles. Jesus is the only head of the church, and he doesn't need apostles or prophets any more, because his spirit can lie inside each of us.[/quote]


[quote]You should open your bible and read Revelation 14-21. I'll give you a head start.[/quote]

As a "good form" note, don't make huge quotes, whether from Scripture or other authors. It completely muddles your point. Secondly, I have read the Bible from cover to cover. Don't assume that we're not familiar with Scripture.

[Deb]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?

Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?

Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?

Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers![/quote]

It seems to me that most of the problems that are currently destroying our world are because people are all going it alone. They have lost their sense of community and responsibility to each other as human beings and children of God. Those who have committed crimes and atrocities in the name of religion are not following their organized religion. I know of no organized religion that advocates the harm of others. Those who are evil will use the name of their religion to commit their crimes and they are solely responsible for them.

One cannot learn of anything on their own. Only the gift and grace of God will reveal his truth to you. That grace comes through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. One who believes that they themselves can interpret the bible on their own are geniuses. Those who think they can do anything at all in this life alone are geniuses. We are here to love one another and take care of one another and that is exactly what true Catholics are all about.

Dissing organized religion is just a cop out. I know. I did it for most of my life. It makes it so much easier to do what you want and convince yourself that what you do is okay.

If I believe in Jesus Christ, then for me, I have to believe in the church that he set up on this earth.
Matthew 16: 18-19 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

In 1 Corinthians 14: v 26-28, the discussion is on prophecy and speaking in tongues and other chrisms. It says, "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. "

Strengthening the church. That is what we do when we belong. Over one billion Catholics go to mass around the world, their prayers are being offered up to God, their sacrifice to the Lord is pleasing to him and his grace flows throughout his churches. We are strengthened as children of God and as a community. We can go to any catholic church in the world, in any language, whether we speak it or not, and we know what is being said in the mass. We are united. We are following the precepts that the Lord and Peter, the first Pope, and the Apostles first laid down. It doesn't get any better than that.

You can go it alone. But, that is what you are, alone.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Deb

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']It seems to me that most of the problems that are currently destroying our world are because people are all going it alone. They have lost their sense of community and responsibility to each other as human beings and children of God. Those who have committed crimes and atrocities in the name of religion are not following their organized religion. I know of no organized religion that advocates the harm of others. Those who are evil will use the name of their religion to commit their crimes and they are solely responsible for them.[/quote]

Actually, there was a news story I read about a Mormon minister who microwaved his baby because 'God' told him too. He was involved in an organized religion, and even a leader in it, but did that. Who was he listening too?

I don't really go it alone, I talk to many friends who believe in God all the time. Sometimes it is debating, sometimes it is just celebrating his grace, and sometimes it is just about what we learn about God.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']One cannot learn of anything on their own. Only the gift and grace of God will reveal his truth to you.[/quote]

I agree the gift of grace allows us to learn about God.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']That grace comes through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. One who believes that they themselves can interpret the bible on their own are geniuses.[/quote]

Ye of little faith. God can interpret his word for those willing to open their hearts.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']Those who think they can do anything at all in this life alone are geniuses. We are here to love one another and take care of one another and that is exactly what true Catholics are all about.[/quote]

That is why I have friend who love God that I talk with all the time.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']Dissing organized religion is just a cop out. I know. I did it for most of my life. It makes it so much easier to do what you want and convince yourself that what you do is okay.[/quote]

I don't convince myself that my sins are okay. In fact, now, my sins become even more serious in my eyes than ever before.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']If I believe in Jesus Christ, then for me, I have to believe in the church that he set up on this earth.
Matthew 16: 18-19 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."[/quote]

So, you think that means Peter is the authority? The more I learn about God, the less I believe in my authority, or anybody's authority, and only Jesus has authority over the church. Peter has no authority in my eyes, and neither do the apostles, because they took their authority from Jesus only, so I want to be just like them, asking Jesus to be the only authority in my life. That's why they were the men who turned the world upside down.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']In 1 Corinthians 14: v 26-28, the discussion is on prophecy and speaking in tongues and other chrisms. It says, "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. "[/quote]

As I said, I talk to friends who love God all the time. And there is a strengthening all the time, where we pray for and with each other all the time. It is marvelous.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']Strengthening the church. That is what we do when we belong. Over one billion Catholics go to mass around the world, their prayers are being offered up to God, their sacrifice to the Lord is pleasing to him and his grace flows throughout his churches. We are strengthened as children of God and as a community. We can go to any catholic church in the world, in any language, whether we speak it or not, and we know what is being said in the mass. We are united. We are following the precepts that the Lord and Peter, the first Pope, and the Apostles first laid down. It doesn't get any better than that.[/quote]

But it can flow from friend to friend who doesn't go to church as well. If you think a billion Catholics make it to heaven, may I remind you broad is the way that leads to Hell. If you think straight and narrow means a billion people, you should take a class in Mathematics. Unless you are passionate about God, red hot - as Jesus said, he will spew people out.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']You can go it alone. But, that is what you are, alone.[/quote]

I have plenty of friends that I share God with, so I am not alone. I just don't believe it should be messed up with organization, because when you organize something, you will get people who don't represent Christ right.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the mormon... who was he listening to... that's exactl the point. it wasn't the religion. it wasn't God. don't put the blame where it doens't belong. one might argue if he wsan't going it alone in fact, and listened to the Church, he'd be fine, but nope.

i think he's given plenty of reasons why going it alone is compelling. it's what i follow after all.

but with that said, he has not shown how organized religion is necessarily wrong. my beef with him has been that he seems to be suggesting that that's the case without discussing why, other than "people in organized religion has killed people" zombie response put on repeat.

[the 13th papist]

In all humility, Im not that smart. Its nice to have 2000 years of the worlds smartest and holiest people to refer to with my questions. I think alot of people who fancy themselves free thinkers might do well with a little more humility.

Edited April 9, 2008 by the 13th papist

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1495575' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:07 PM']In all humility, Im not that smart. Its nice to have 2000 years of the worlds smartest and holiest people to refer to with my questions.[/quote]

Don't let that lie enter your head again..

Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

If you are a child of God, then that scripture is true about you. You know what is right and wrong, so don't let indoctrination tell you otherwise.

[Deb]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1495575' date='Apr 9 2008, 01:07 PM']In all humility, Im not that smart. Its nice to have 2000 years of the worlds smartest and holiest people to refer to with my questions.[/quote]

I am very smart and I still prefer to have 2000 years of the world's smartest and holiest people to interpret the Lord's word for me.
People have been trying to destroy the church since the beginning of time and Christ knew this would happen. He said he would build his rock on Peter and the gates of Hades would not overcome it.
I prefer to be a part of that church as Christ set it up. I prefer to receive the sacraments that Jesus Christ set up for us. The most precious is the Eucharist. This was not a parable, this was the truth for everlasting grace and life.

As Jesus said more than once, and as reported in John, "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

I personally could not ever survive without the Eucharist. I went too many years of my life without it and now that I have had it, I want it every day. That alone will always keep me in the church.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495561' date='Apr 9 2008, 05:47 PM']Actually, there was a news story I read about a Mormon minister who microwaved his baby because 'God' told him too. He was involved in an organized religion, and even a leader in it, but did that. Who was he listening too?[/quote]
Okay, but does the Mormon church advocate or condone the microwaving of babies? If not (and it doesn't), then this is not a valid argument against organised religion. It doesn't matter that he's a minister, as people sin & don't always follow their religion exactly. I also doubt that he did this [b]because [/b]of being in an organised religion, but instead has deeper issues.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1495599' date='Apr 9 2008, 01:01 PM']Okay, but does the Mormon church advocate or condone the microwaving of babies? If not (and it doesn't), then this is not a valid argument against organised religion. It doesn't matter that he's a minister, as people sin & don't always follow their religion exactly. I also doubt that he did this [b]because [/b]of being in an organised religion, but instead has deeper issues.[/quote]

I use this as an example, because one of my 'protestant' friends said - it is better to follow Jesus Christ than a religion, after he read the article.

Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495582' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:15 PM']If you are a child of God, then that scripture is true about you. You know what is right and wrong, so don't let indoctrination tell you otherwise.[/quote]

The Church doesn't tell you otherwise, she just celebrates those she knows to have done great things with their faith.
There are plenty of people who believe the Bible yet do horrible, horrible, horrible things with their faith because they interpreted it on their own.... The Westboro Baptists for example, (I will never forget that God Hates ireland site XD)

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495601' date='Apr 9 2008, 01:03 PM']I use this as an example, because one of my 'protestant' friends said - it is better to follow Jesus Christ than a religion, after he read the article.

Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?[/quote]

What makes you think you're so Holy that you can't go wrong if you interprit scripture on your own? Just because you're baptised, (which, btw, requires another person and a few witnesses for it to be legit which inadvertedly means you're part of a religion from the get go), doesn't mean you on your own are infallible. At least the Pope has the entire magisterium to consult and argue with.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Galloglasses