Medjugorje Hoax

[Deb]

I have read the book before. It is by Michael Davies, the guy who supported the Society of Pius X, wasn't it?

Anyway. The book is nothing but trash and is so offensive in parts and so ridiculously stupid in others that it is almost unreadable.

He has one part where he talks about the lavish wealth that both Jakov and Marjana have with double garages and stately homes and security gates. What a load of croutons. I have been to both of their houses. They do have fences around their houses. Even I in my doddering old age could go over one. Not any more of a fence than most suburban neighborhoods have. Their houses are not grand. They are just houses. Mirjana still takes pilgrims into her home and feeds them for crying out loud. I suppose the author (God rest his soul) figured no one would ever go to their houses and dispute his croutons.

He lists Fr. Jozo Zovko as an early supporter of the seers who is forbidden to celebrate mass to the faithful or to preach in Herzogovina. Yeah, that was a condition that the communists put on him after they tortured him in prison for 18 months. The bishop however, who first supported the children (Fr. Jozo did not until the Lord told him to protect the children) changed his mind after the police told him to change his story or he would end up in prison. He called Fr. Jozo and told him he was not going to prison over something that had not been proven.
Fr. Jozo will be cannonized at some time. Just being in his presence is knowing you are standing in the presence of an incredibly holy man. Mary referred to her visiting him many times when he was in prison. I have heard him speak twice and been blessed by him and I will only say that the power that flows out of him is glorious to behold.
But, the author can just toss out something that makes it sound like because he was banned from returning to Medjugorje, he must be a fraud too. I could debunk this entire book if I wanted to waste my time but, I don't.

I just figure that God has already discussed this with him and that is between the two of them. Just like when the bad guys wanted to kill the apostles and were told that they killed Jesus thinking this group would break up. It didn't and if it wasn't of God, it would disband and if it was of God, then best let it be.
That may be the best possibility. Either believe it or not. Just don't try to trash it with lies and innuendo because if of God, one will answer for that.

Davies also thinks that what will happen is at some point the seers will state that all must choose between the apparition or the catholic church and all will choose the apparitions. I have no idea what drug he was on when he came up with that.

Okay. I am done now. Adoration time.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Deb

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='prose' post='1495046' date='Apr 8 2008, 03:44 PM']Sorry, just to clarify, you are implying that the Church made it up and that the Church is evil? Or that the Church is evil and Satan is encouraging people to become Catholic for that reason?

Either way, it seems to me that if the "Big Bad Catholic Church" made it up, they certainly aren't doing much to encourage it. In fact, they seem to be staying out of being official until further notice. I would think if they were making it up, it would have been approved years ago. And if Satan is directing people to be good Catholics, he is sure losing a lot of souls who are following Christ now. That doesn't make sense either.[/quote]

well, i wasn't trying ot argue. but.

it'd be possible satan is leading people wrongly into the CC. i don't find much wrong with the CC in terms of being evil, but i'd entertain it as a possiblity.

it's possible that the CC wouldn't approve it even if they fabricated it, because it'd be premature to do it now before it's stopped and it'd look funny. i don't think the CC has fabricated officially like that. maybe at the local level, which would be detached from the mother church. i'd entertain that idea, but it's probbaly given the bishop doens't approve more likely if any fabrication, the local pepole and vendors and book sellers etc.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1495130' date='Apr 8 2008, 05:16 PM']It wasn't a burn on you my friend[/quote]

It's all good. I personally find his work to be generally very decent, though admittedly this was not his best work. I definitely disagree with a lot of what he writes (otherwise I wouldn't be a sede), but I think there are certain things in his works, and this one too, that should not be dismissed just because of the weakness of some of the other parts, because I think the good parts outweigh the bad and make the case for itself. Sometimes I think authors will include a lot of weaker information just to make their stuff look weightier when in fact a shorter work consisting of just the strong facts would be far more effective. I think he falls into this trap a lot and his argument suffers because of it, because people dismiss the good because they see the rest of the weakness.

[Deb]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1495167' date='Apr 8 2008, 07:09 PM']well, i wasn't trying ot argue. but.

it'd be possible satan is leading people wrongly into the CC. i don't find much wrong with the CC in terms of being evil, but i'd entertain it as a possiblity.

it's possible that the CC wouldn't approve it even if they fabricated it, because it'd be premature to do it now before it's stopped and it'd look funny. i don't think the CC has fabricated officially like that. maybe at the local level, which would be detached from the mother church. i'd entertain that idea, but it's probbaly given the bishop doens't approve more likely if any fabrication, the local pepole and vendors and book sellers etc.[/quote]

I think you have to explain this a little better to me. Are you suggesting that somehow, someone in the CC at some level was able to get six CHILDREN to make all of this up and then keep it up for almost 27 years to get people to come into the Catholic Church?
Evil and the Catholic Church? I am kind of offended by that premise, if indeed that is what you are saying.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do not believe that they fabricated it. all i'm saying is it's possible that they fabricated it, and i'd entertain that possibility.
i am sorry if by entertaining the idea you are offended, but that is my belief that i am willing to entertain.
by entertain, i am only admitting the possibility might exist and not excluding the idea necessarily.
the reasons you state are why i tend not to believe it's fabricated by the church at any level.
the difference is that you are more necessarily precluding fabrication by the church.

if it was fabricated by the CC though i would not say that means the CC is evil. only the people who did it is.
only if satan is fabrcating to get ppl into the CC bc it's evil would i think the CC evil. but, that's a premise that must be established, and if established, one could not disagree that it's evil. (ie if it's evil, i believe it's evil)

you yourself said everyone has to make up their mind on this matter. i'd expect you wouldn't say that and then be offended if they even entertain (not even believe) that it's not true or a hoax etc.
i think you're probably reading into this too much.

Edited April 9, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Deb]

I am sorry but, more words doesn't make your premise any clearer. Could you do that in three or four coherent sentences?

[Galloglasses]

My main aguement against mudjegorje, is that it is so diversitory. Think about it, has any other apparition divided opinions not only of theologians, but of the laity so sharply as Mudjegoje done? Apparitions of Our Lady have ticked off members of other Christian denominations before, but thats usually born out of apologetics for their own churches, (if people from Heaven are advocating another Church it REALLY looks bad for your Church), but has it before divided us so sharply? Why would Mary continue to perform miracles there if she is aware of the effect its happening on the Church. She wouldn't. Medjugorje isn't like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun"]Zeitoun[/url], were she united many Christians of various denominations by... basically showing her face. However, what REALLY put me off Mudjegorje was this diary entry by a visionary.

"Friday 4 September, 1981. Today, we waited for our Lady at Marija's house. Marija, Ivanka, Jakov and I (Vicka) were there. We started to pray at 6:20 p.m. Our Lady immediately appeared. We asked her about the Friars and nuns from our parish. We asked about the man who saw Jesus along the road when he took the people in his car. He met a man who was covered in blood--this man was [b]Jesus[/b]--and he (Jesus) gave him a handkerchief soaked in blood and [b]told him to throw it into the river[/b]. Driving on further, he met a woman, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she asked the driver for the blood-soaked handkerchief. The man gave her a handkerchief that belonged to him, [b]but Our Lady asked for the blood-stained handkerchief[/b]. When the man gave her the blood-stained handkerchief, Our Lady said: [b]'If you hadn't given it to me, it would have been the last judgment for everyone!' Our Lady said that this was true[/b]."

What distrubs me most is that a request from Mary overrides a command from Jesus. That and what Mary says contradicts Scripture. In the Book of Rvelations it is said that no one, not even The Son, will know the day nor the Hour, only the Father. Yet here it is implied that Mary knew when it was to happen, I don't know why the visionary didn't just absolutely freak out when he saw Jesus, (I know I would have), and i'm not sure what the symbolism is in throwing a hankercheif with soaked in blood over a bridge is supposed to be., but this is really off putting from me.

And about the house divided against itself, I haven't heard that daemons have been driven out of people at Medjugorje, i've only heard that afflictions have been cured. Unless the Devil or whatever this apparition is had somehow caused the afflictions in the first place, I don't think the divided house passage applies. Altough i'm going to wait till the Church finishes investigating it before I condemn it utterly or take a pilgrimage. I'd rather take no chances as of yet.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1495593' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:51 PM']And about the house divided against itself, I haven't heard that daemons have been driven out of people at Medjugorje, i've only heard that afflictions have been cured. Unless the Devil or whatever this apparition is had somehow caused the afflictions in the first place, I don't think the divided house passage applies. Altough i'm going to wait till the Church finishes investigating it before I condemn it utterly or take a pilgrimage. I'd rather take no chances as of yet.[/quote]

Your reference is off-putting to me as well, and certainly gives reason for a cautionary skepticism if true. Nevertheless, I made reference to that passage with regards to the conversions that have taken place. A single conversion is a work of God far greater than the driving out of 1,000 demons. It is difficult for me to imagine Satan engineering an event inspiring devotion to Our Lord & Lady and facilitating countless conversions.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1495643' date='Apr 9 2008, 02:16 PM']Your reference is off-putting to me as well, and certainly gives reason for a cautionary skepticism if true. Nevertheless, I made reference to that passage with regards to the conversions that have taken place. A single conversion is a work of God far greater than the driving out of 1,000 demons. It is difficult for me to imagine Satan engineering an event inspiring devotion to Our Lord & Lady and facilitating countless conversions.[/quote]

Actually I remember hearing a story about events happening a century or two back, (if anyone recognises this story and finds a reference I will be grateful, for now i'll look for it), Satan had appeared to a young girl in the guise of various Saints a number of times. Apparently this made the girl grow arrogent and proud, till the Devil appeared to her at age 11 as he really was. Apparently she made some kind of agreement with him.

Through her adult life she performed alot of miracles, (when I first heard this I don't think she casted out daemons, but if anyone has a source on this story please post), and gained the vafour respects... and ears of many, including bishops and Priests and people converted. I think some thought of her as a living Saint. However, on her deathbed she revealed the truth of what was behind her power and her agreement with the devil, (I am not sure if this was a change of heart at confession by her deathbed or an intregel part of the devil's plan), whichever, the effect was immediate... and devastating. So sure people were that this person was Holy and of God, that when they heard this horrifying truth many either lost faith or became so lost and confused that they lost any concept of the divine or any grasp the had on understanding God. This affected simple lay people and theologically trained clergy. It happened somewhere in France and was quite devestating.

What I fear is that Medjugorje is something similar only it will have a much more profound and powerful effect on the Church across the world. Or if its real it could be the most glorious thing to happen in decades. The stakes are too high to make rash judgements, altough I am fairly leaning to thinking they are false, I will hold my peace till the Church has made her say.

[prose]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1495593' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:51 PM']"Friday 4 September, 1981. Today, we waited for our Lady at Marija's house. Marija, Ivanka, Jakov and I (Vicka) were there. We started to pray at 6:20 p.m. Our Lady immediately appeared. We asked her about the Friars and nuns from our parish. We asked about the man who saw Jesus along the road when he took the people in his car. He met a man who was covered in blood--this man was [b]Jesus[/b]--and he (Jesus) gave him a handkerchief soaked in blood and [b]told him to throw it into the river[/b]. Driving on further, he met a woman, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she asked the driver for the blood-soaked handkerchief. The man gave her a handkerchief that belonged to him, [b]but Our Lady asked for the blood-stained handkerchief[/b]. When the man gave her the blood-stained handkerchief, Our Lady said: [b]'If you hadn't given it to me, it would have been the last judgment for everyone!' Our Lady said that this was true[/b]."[/quote]

I am a Medujorge waiter. I don't believe or not believe it. I tend to lean towards not, but I am not decisive in that opinion.

HOWEVER,

This quote doesn't state what you imply it does. Perhaps the man did not do what Jesus asked and that is why Mary asked for the handkerchief. Her request may not have "over ridden" Jesus' request (if this is true). It may have been a second chance for the man to do what was asked of him. Seems to me that many pilgrims would want to keep something like that as a relic or something.

We just don't know.

[goldenchild17]

I found that story (or one similar to it anyways) in a work by Fr. William G. Most called "Private Revelations and the Discernment of Spirits" posted on the EWTN website: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryd8.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryd8.htm[/url]

"1. Pure bad faith, fakery.

Magdalen of the Cross was a Franciscan of Cordova, born in 1487, who entered a convent at age of 17. From the age of 5 the devil appeared to her as various Saints, led her to desire to be considered a saint. At 13 he said who he was, offered an agreement: he would spread her reputation for holiness, and give her at least 30 years of pleasures. She agreed, and it all came true--ecstasies, levitation, prophecies, simulated stigmata. At door of death she confessed. Exorcism was needed."

Is this what you were referring to?




There is another interesting part in this article.

[quote]1.) "Authority of the Church

We distinguish two kinds of actions by the local bishops of places of alleged apparitions:

1) a decision that it is or is not authentic. Since the Church herself has no providential protection in the area of private revelations, the bishop could be in error. We are not obliged to believe him, or even the Pope himself in such a case.

2) [b]an order to all not to go in pilgrimage to the place of the supposed visions. This is a different matter, it is an exercise of authority, which the local bishop does have. [u]Therefore if there are violations of this order, and yet visions seem to continue, we may be absolutely certain that the visions are false.[/u][/b] [b]Our Lady or the Saints will never appear to promote disobedience. [/b]Even if there seem to be benefits to the devotion of people, we must still obey. And we need to recall how demanding the Church is of proof for alleged miracles. At Lourdes, after thousands of seeming miracles, the Church has checked and approved only a little over 60 cases since the start of that shrine."[/quote]

Fr. Most is right. I believe according to canon law (I'll check to be sure) it is the local bishop's jurisdiction and authority to speak on private revelations in his area. I paste the entire letter from the bishop to give the full context, but the bolded part is all that seems necessary if you don't want to read the whole thing:

[quote]Declaration of the Bishop of Mostar
Concerning Medjugorje - 25 July 1987

After a version of this declaration, translated into English not from the original Croatian, but from an Italian translation, had been circulating for some time, the bishop asked Father Hugh Thwaites, an English Jesuit, to have an accurate translation made from the original Croatian. The task was undertaken by my wife Marija, who is Croatian, and my son Adrian, who has a Cambridge degree in Serbo-Croatian.

Brothers and Sisters,

Today in Medjugorje, on the occasion of administering the sacrament of confirmation, you are perhaps expecting me to say a few words concerning those events about which the whole world is talking. The Church must concern herself with them, and whatever is of concern to the Church, she refers to particular individuals and commissions. You know that at the moment this subject is being discussed by the commission which was convened by the conference of Bishops of Yugoslavia, because the Church cannot expose her credibility lightly before the 20th century world which seeks to discredit and criticise her, so that it can say: "There you are—there is Jesus Christ for you."
I can assure you that I prayed, studied, and kept silent for six years. Others have prayed too, and I thank them for it. In every Holy Mass that I have said Medjugorje was present in my intentions. In my daily rosary I prayed to Our Lord, and to the Holy Ghost, to give me light from God. This has helped me to form a firm and certain conviction concerning everything that I have heard, read or experienced. There is a great deal of praying and fasting going on here (in Medjugorje), but it is in the belief that all the events are truly supernatural. However, to preach falsehood to the faithful concerning God, Jesus, and Our Lady - that merits the depths of hell.
In all my work, prayers, and studies I had one aim before me—to discern the truth. With this aim, as early as 1982, I formed a four-member commission which later, with the help of some bishops and fathers provincial, I expanded to 15 members drawn from nine theological centres from seven dioceses and four provinces, and two leading psychiatrists who were enabled to consult their colleagues. They worked for three years. The Holy See was informed about their work, and the events. This commission of the Conference of Bishops of Yugoslavia continues to concern itself with the same problem.
However, there were impatient people who went ahead before the judgement of the Church, and declared that miracles and supernatural events were taking place. They preached on private revelations from the altar, something which is not permitted until the Church declares such revelations to be authentic. That is why the various authorities demanded that pilgrimages should not be organised, that the Church's judgement should be awaited. This was first done on 24 March 1984 when the commission on Medjugorje warned against it, but, unfortunately, without effect. Then, in October of the same year, the Conference of Bishops declared that there should be no more officially organised pilgrimages to Medjugorje. By "officially organised" is meant those who gather or come in a group. That had no effect either. Then the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome, on 23 May 1985, sent a letter to the Conference of Italian Bishops asking them to try to reduce the number of organised pilgrimages, and likewise to minimise all forms of propaganda. That too bore no fruit. Finally, when the second commission was formed, Cardinal Franjo Kuharic and the Bishop of Mostar, in the name of the Conference of Bishops of Yugoslavia, declared publicly on 29 January 1987: "For this reason it is forbidden to organise pilgrimages or other manifestations motivated by the supernatural character attributed to the events in Medjugorje" This pronouncement came from the highest level in the Church and must not be ignored as if it were of no significance. Ever since the first news appeared concerning the unusual events in this diocese, the bishop's office followed the reports carefully, and collected everything that could serve in the search for truth. The bishop allowed the seers and religious involved full freedom, and even defended them from political and press attacks. We taped all the conversations, collected chronicles and diaries, letters and documents. The commission of our professors of theology and physicians studied all this for three years. The three year work of the commission concluded as follows: two members voted in favour of the truth and supernatural nature of the apparitions. One member abstained from voting. One accepted that something had happened at the beginning. Eleven voted that there had been no apparitions—non constat de supernaturalitate.31
I am firmly convinced that all the members of the commission worked conscientiously and examined everything which could have aided their search for truth. The Church cannot risk her credibility, and often, in similar cases, she has studied events like these carefully and rebuked groups who gathered in places where it had been established that the events were not supernatural. Let us remember Garabandal in Spain, San Damiano in Italy, and dozens of similar places in the past few years. The seers at Garabandal claimed that Our Lady promised a great sign for the whole world. Twenty-five years have passed since then, and still there is no sign. If Our Lady had left a sign it would be clear to all what this is about.
It was said that Our Lady started to appear at Podbrdo on Mount Crnica. When the police stopped people going there she appeared in people's homes, on fences, in fields, in vineyards, and tobacco fields. She appeared in the church, on the altar, in the sacristy, in the choir-loft, on the roof, in the bell-tower, on the roads, on the road to Cerno, in a car, on a bus, in schools, at several places in Mostar and Sarajevo, in monasteries in Zagreb, in Varazdin, in Switzerland, in Italy, then again at Podbrdo, in Krizevac, in the parish, on the presbytery and so on. This does not list even half the number of locations where apparitions were alleged to have taken place, so that a sober man who venerates Our Lady must ask: "My Lady, what are they making of you?"
[b]By divine law I am the pastor in this diocese, the teacher of the faith, and the judge in questions concerning the faith. Since the events in Medjugorje have caused strife and division in the Church—some people believing, others not believing—because there are those who have refused to submit themselves to the authority of the Church. Because the recommendations and decisions of the above mentioned authorities, commissions, congregations of the bishops' conference had no effect, I, the bishop of Mostar, answerable before God for the discipline in this diocese repeat and confirm earlier decisions of ecclesiastical bodies, and I forbid pilgrimages to come here and attribute a supernatural character to these events before the Commission of the Bishops' Conference completes its work.[/b]
I turn to you, O Immaculate Virgin and Mother, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church, Mother of the faithful who seek, pray to, and love you. I, your servant, the bishop of Mostar, turn to you, and before the whole world declare my deep and constant faith in all the privileges God bestowed upon you according to which you are the first and most excellent of His creatures. I express my profound and unswerving faith in your intercession before Almighty God for all the needs of your children in this vale of tears.
I declare my profound and constant faith in your love towards us sinners, that love to which you have testified by your apparitions and assistance. I myself have led pilgrimages to Lourdes. It is precisely with the strength of this faith that I, your servant the bishop of Mostar, before the great multitudes who have called upon you, discern and accept your great sign which after six years, has become clear and certain. No special sign is necessary for me, but it was necessary for those who believed in a falsehood. The sign you have given is that for six years you remained silent continually whenever they prophesied that there would be an apparition on the mountain which would be permanent and for all to see. "It will be soon, quite soon, just be patient a little longer" They were saying this as early as 1981. Then they claimed that it would be on the feast of the Immaculate Conception, then at Christmas, then for the New Year and so on.
Thank you, Blessed Lady, for manifesting by your six year silence whether or not you have spoken here, whether or not you had appeared or given messages, revealed secrets, or promised a special sign. Most holy Virgin, Mother of Christ and our Mother, intercede for peace in this restless region of the Church, the diocese of Mostar. Intercede especially for this village, this parish where your holy name has been mentioned countless times in messages. Accept, most holy Virgin, in reparation, the sincere prayers of those devout souls who are far from fanaticism and disobedience within the Church. Help us all to come to the real truth. Beloved, humble, and obedient Maiden of God, help Medjugorje to follow with a firm step the shepherd of the Church on earth, so that we all may glorify you and thank you in truth and love. Amen.

Pavao Zanic
Bishop of Mostar[/quote]

I don't know if the commission has completed its work but if not, then there is a serious trend of disobedience going on as a result of these visions, not only in regards to the pilgrimages but also messages from "Our Lady" which support the disobedience of priests and laypeople to their bishop. This is NOT a sign of Our Lady, and is in fact a sign (as Fr. Most says) that there is nothing heavenly about it.

[goldenchild17]

honestly, more than anything else, the blatant disobedience to the local bishop and defiance to even their pope is enough for me. Why would Our Lady advocate any such thing?

[Galloglasses]

Actually, that was exactly the story I was looking for.I will have to have a conversation with my local Dominican Church. (Its offering pilgrimages to Medjugorje, as is the Alive! Catholic paper, neither of which seem to be aware of the controversy if at all.

But again, I'll hold my peace.

[quote]honestly, more than anything else, the blatant disobedience to the local bishop and defiance to even their pope is enough for me. Why would Our Lady advocate any such thing?[/quote]

This is another reason why i'm not sure this is Our Lady here. Miracles by themselves would've been enough.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Deb]

The Vatican has overridden the Bishop of Mostar and did so a very long time ago. Probably after the Bishop changed his story from believing them to not believing them so that he could avoid a prison term.

[goldenchild17]

I'd have to read more about that before accepting it. But it still doesn't explain the outright disrespect for clergy, approved by the visions.

[Deb]

Here is something very recent for you to read. Don't embarrass yourself in protesting pilgrimages. In January in Medjugorje 891 Priests concelebrated (28/day) and 42,500 people received communion.

The Vatican has officially taken the issue of Medjugorje away from local jurisdiction.



[center][u][font="Arial"][size=6][color="#000000"]SPOKESMAN FOR CARDINAL CONFIRMS THAT MEDJUGORJE HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM COMMISSION INTO DIRECT HANDS OF VATICAN[/color][/size][/font][/u][/center]
[left][i][u][font="Arial"][size=2][[url="http://www.spiritdaily.com/printerfriendly2.htm"][color="#000000"]printer-friendly version[/color][/url]][/size][/font][/u][/i][/left]
[img]http://www.spiritdaily.com/jOHNpAULLUMINOUSWAVES.jpg[/img][font="Arial"][size=4]It came as a complete surprise and we have now confirmed it. It is nearly as if the hand of John Paul II himself is in it.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Or is it simply that Benedict XVI is a bit more mystical than many perceived?[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]In Europe, the press has reported that the matter of Medjugorje -- the famed apparition site in Bosnia-Hercegovina that was so dear to John Paul -- has shifted directly into the hands of the Vatican.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]It is true, we are now told authoritatively.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]The apparitions will not be accepted or rejected by local or regional Church officials until they are directed how and when to do so by Rome, officials now report -- in one of the larger development in this case since onset of the apparitions.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4][color="#ff0000"]"I can confirm it,"[/color] states Monsignor Mato Zovkic, vicar general of the Sarajevo archdiocese. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Monsignor Zovkic, who is spokesman for the Cardinal of Sarajevo and previously indicated negatively feelings about the site, now tells[i] Spirit Daily [/i]that "the situation is that people keep coming to Medjugorje, they feel something nice, and they are reconciled sacramentally. The Vatican seems to be very interested and so this should be respected."[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Headed by Cardinal Vinko Puljić, the national commission based in Sarajevo was formed after the Vatican took away the authority of discernment from the local bishop, who usually rules on such matters. Now the national commission has also been subjected to higher Church authorities.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]The vicar emphasized that the national commission no longer plans to take action until it hears direct instructions from the Vatican. "This is our viewpoint," said Zovkic, who is also a professor at the seminary in Sarajevo.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4][color="#ff0000"]Such is a major change [/color]in its previous position, which was that the commission would make a determination after the apparitions stopped. "As things are now, yes," the commission will wait for the Vatican, he repeated. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]It is no minor statement.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]For years, many have been under the misconception that the claims at Medjugorje are under the authority of the bishop in Mostar -- whose diocese includes Medjugorje and who has been strongly negative, even seeking to condemn it. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]The matter long ago was taken out of those hands, however, and given to a national commission headed by Cardinal Puljić. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Now, it will go even higher -- indicating, perhaps, that Rome believes Medjugorje exceeds not just local but also regional discernment.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]The original decision to revoke the authority of Mostar was likewise taken under the direction of Pope Benedict when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Instead, the entire matter appears open to restudy.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]A Bible scholar, Monsignor Zovkic said he plans to hold special meetings in Medjugorje on May 7, along with a moral theologian and a canon lawyer. The goal, he said, is to review how priests should conduct themselves during the sacraments, especially Confession -- which is unusually intense at the apparition site, with booths set up for more than a dozen languages and long lines of pilgrims seeking reconciliation.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4][color="#ff0000"]The authority of local ecclesiastic officials[/color] has thus shifted from discernment of the apparitions to sacramental and liturgical administration.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Monsignor Zovkic -- who himself previously had expressed misgiving about the site -- said that "I am looking forward to seeing Medjugorje." He alluded to recent statements by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone -- the current secretary of state at the Vatican and as such second only to the Pope -- to the effect that the matter necessitated re-examination. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]The new statements in one fell swoop erase objections by those who have long asserted that Medjugorje was rejected or condemned because local bishops in Mostar have been unfavorable. Complicated and even tortured arguments that the site had been rejected can be immediately set aside, pending word from Rome itself.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Long considered a rigid intellectual -- and feared by those who believed he would quash private revelations -- Pope Benedict XVI has thus far taken no such action and instead has hinted at the deep mystical influence of his predecessor.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]In [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3667976.ece"][color="#000000"]recalling John Paul II[/color][/url] at a memorial Mass last week, in fact, he mentioned the "supernatural" nature [/size][/font][font="Arial"][size=4]of that pontiff ("Among many human and supernatural qualities, he had an exceptional spiritual and mystical sensibility," intoned the Pope), as did John Paul's former aide[/size][/font][font="Arial"][size=4], Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, Archbishop of Krakow, who cited numerous miraculous cures attributed to the Pope and said that "I accompanied him for almost forty years, now he is accompanying me — and whenever I have a problem I turn to him." [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4][i]"John Paul's spirit felt at Vatican, ex-aide says," [/i]stated the headline last week (4/3/08).[/size][/font]



[font="Arial"][size=4]The question was whether that spirit was also influencing the official take on Medjugorje -- which was dear to John Paul II's heart (and in danger of condemnation).[/size][/font]

[font="Arial Helvetica sans-serif"][size=2][img]http://www.spiritdaily.com/cardinal.jpg[/img][/size][/font][font="Arial"][size=4]In [i]Vecernji List[/i], when asked if the Bishops Conference for Bosnia-Hercegovina was going to re-examine Medjugorje -- in light of statements by Cardinal Bertone that such was in order, Cardinal Puljić, as archbishop of Sarajevo, was quoted as saying: [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]"Our conference has not discussed this matter, because the phenomenon of Medjugorje does not come within our competence. At the moment when the Holy See takes the decision and gives a task, we shall think about what to do. This is why it is not necessary to speculate, unless concre[/size][/font][font="Arial"][size=4]te instructions come. After the work of the commission, the [conference] has already decided to accompany the phenomenon pastorally. This is nothing new, but the implementation of the first decision of the conference about the phenomenon Medjugorje."[/size][/font]

[img]http://www.spiritdaily.com/marjana2.jpg[/img][font="Arial"][size=4]It was as remarkable as it was startling because the cardinal who was in charge of the discernment was now stating that he was no longer in charge, and neither was the national conference -- unless the Vatican asked.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]That was a turnaround from statements made at the Cardinal's chancery several years ago, when his vicar general told [i]Spirit Daily[/i] the matter was in the hands of the national commission -- headed by Cardinal Puljic -- and would not be decided until the apparitions conclude. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]At the time, Father Zovkic had intimated that the cardinal was leaning against the apparitions, as had the Bishop of Mostar, Ratko Peric (and his predecessor, Pavao Zanic), whose authority to rule on the site was removed in 1986 by then-Cardinal Ratzinger. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Such was long thought to have been done at the behest of John Paul II. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Private letters between the late Pope John Paul II and a couple in Krakow, Poland, have confirmed in writing that the late pontiff had a positive view of Medjugorje and even a daily devotion attached to the site of apparitions in Bosnia-Hercegovina. He met at least two of the seers, including Mirjana Soldo (above, [i]left, [/i]with whom we will visit, God-willing, during a pilgrimage in June).[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4][color="#ff0000"]The letters,[/color] dated March 30, 1991, May 28, 1992, December 8, 1992, and February 25, 1994, and addressed to Zofia and Marek ("Z. M.") Skwarniccy, make several references to Medjugorje (in Polish, "Medziugorje") by name.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]"And let everything be well on the journey to Medjugorje-Rome," John Paul II had written. "I thank Zofia for everything that regards Medjugorje," the Pope apparently wrote. "I am also going there every day in prayer: I join everyone who is praying there or who derives the call to prayer from there. Today we have understood this call better."[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Similar indications have been given by bishops who have said the late Pope expressed a highly favorable view in private conversation -- but did not want to offend the Mostar chancery. Many have compared Medjugorje to historic apparitions such as those at Fatima and Lourdes. It has drawn millions of pilgrims, tens of thousands of priests, and hundreds of bishops and cardinals from around the world. It is regularly quietly monitored by officials from the Vatican.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4][color="#ff0000"]But no one knew [/color]what Cardinal Ratzinger -- now Pope Benedict -- himself thought, with contradicting indications. On the one hand, it was he who rejected the document by Mostar which would have condemned Medjugorje, and the current Pope also who, in a book called [i]The Ratzinger Report[/i], when asked about Medjugorje, dodged a direct answer by saying that in general the multiplication of alleged apparitions seemed like a "sign of the times." On the other hand, there were reports that he too had misgivings over the conduct of certain parties in Medjugorje.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]But it appears that once more Pope Benedict may have stepped in to prevent an unfavorable ruling. Three of the four members of the national commission -- which includes the bishop of Mostar -- seemed poised to issue a negative discernment when the time came.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Has that now been permanently changed, or only for the time being? Has the Vatican decided that Medjugorje is too large and global for the discernment of so few -- in a region where there is great ethnic and religious antagonism (including between Franciscans and secular dioceses)?[/size][/font]

[img]http://www.spiritdaily.com/Medjcandles.jpg[/img][font="Arial"][size=4]Such action -- like the 1986 removal of Mostar's authority -- would be unprecedented. However, so is the reach of Medjugorje, which continues to break records as pilgrims fill to overflowing the Franciscan church. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Several years ago a report claimed that Bishop Peric had publicly complained at the Synod of Bishops that Medjugorje had created division between the secular diocese and Franciscans (due to a controversy back in the 1980s with two Franciscans) and referred to "pseudo-charisms." There are only four members of the conference: Cardinal Puljić; his auxiliary bishop; the Bishop of Banja-Luka; and Bishop Ratko Peric of Mostar -- who oversees the actual diocese to which Medjugorje belongs and who has been strongly opposed to Medjugorje. [/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size=4]Ironically, the latest issue arose right at the anniversary of John Paul II's death and at a time when Dziwisz had added, according to another newspaper, that John Paul and Benedict were "true friends" and recalled anecdotes from his decades with John Paul, describing, for example, how the pontiff used to bless the city of Rome before going to sleep.[/size][/font]

[left][font="Arial"][size=4]With the latest report, it seems that the late pontiff is also blessing Medjugorje.[/size][/font][/left]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Deb' post='1495768' date='Apr 9 2008, 05:01 PM']Here is something very recent for you to read. Don't embarrass yourself in protesting pilgrimages.[/quote]

I'll read it, but to be fair, I don't accept the Vatican leadership as valid, so it won't really matter for me personally what they say. I was arguing this last piece for those who accept the pope and his bishops. Since I don't it won't really matter what they say for me personally.

edit: just finished it. Interesting piece. I feel bad for the bishop of that diocese...

Edited April 9, 2008 by goldenchild17

[Deb]

I don't feel sorry for the Bishop at all. He is just like the first. I would be more convinced that a single man could be used by the devil than millions of people.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Deb

[goldenchild17]

I will never go there. I am convinced that it is not from heaven. The messages and the lack of respect for their bishop is enough to prove it for me.

[Deb]

I am convinced it is from heaven. It brought me to the Lord after 35 years. It converted my friend a week ago. It gave me the miracle of the sun every day of my life. I would give my life for my Lord. I pray three hours a day. A year ago, I couldn't even say I believed Christ was the son of God.

The main messages are Prayer, confession, mass, Rosary and adoration. Prayer must come back to the family. Pray Pray Pray. Those are the consistant messages.
Whatever bizarre messages you are believing in are the ones that are not from heaven as their bishop is not and as the Vatican has pretty much come out and said. If Pope John Paul II believed, it is good enough for me.

I will pray that you will receive the call.