Islamic Public School?

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1"]http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1[/url]

What law has ever said students can demand to pray when they want to?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1496476' date='Apr 10 2008, 01:50 PM'][url="http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1"]http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1[/url]

What law has ever said students can demand to pray when they want to?[/quote]

I'm actually studying Islam in depth in my Religious studies class at school, (much to my dismay, it seems to me we are learning more about other religions then we are about our own, the effect on my classmates is sometimes obvious. Especially since we only ever do a rudimentary study of the Gospels)

Muslims believe they [i]must [/i]prayer at very specific times of day. In Britain and Ireland they are allowed out of class at these times to pray. I think its really just to avoid a scene and the like. But shira law isn't incorporated, its treated as 'special case' here.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1496476' date='Apr 10 2008, 01:50 PM'][url="http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1"]http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1[/url]

What law has ever said students can demand to pray when they want to?[/quote]
We need to use this to our advantage. If the Muslims can do it so can we.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1496483' date='Apr 10 2008, 01:58 PM']I'm actually studying Islam in depth in my Religious studies class at school, (much to my dismay, it seems to me we are learning more about other religions then we are about our own, the effect on my classmates is sometimes obvious. Especially since we only ever do a rudimentary study of the Gospels)

Muslims believe they [i]must [/i]prayer at very specific times of day. In Britain and Ireland they are allowed out of class at these times to pray. I think its really just to avoid a scene and the like. But shira law isn't incorporated, its treated as 'special case' here.[/quote]
One way to subvert the system would be to have the bishop say that everyone should pray the angelus and have him do it in strong language.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496484' date='Apr 10 2008, 01:59 PM']We need to use this to our advantage. If the Muslims can do it so can we.[/quote]

Fight fire with fire is not justification enough to manipulate the laws of your home country.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1496488' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:04 PM']Fight fire with fire is not justification enough to manipulate the laws of your home country.[/quote]
Actually its not manipulation of the Law. there is no such thing as a law of separation of Church and state here in the United States. It is something that was "Interpreted" into the constitution of the United State by what is commonly called "Living intent" judges as opposed to "Original intent" judges.

Each State actually has in its individual authority to declare state religions and even to outlaw whatever religions it sees fit. the law says "Congress shall pass no law" limiting it to the federal government.

[Galloglasses]

Yes but Jesus technically seperated Church and State Himself when he said, "Give to Caeser what is Caeser's and give to God what is God's"

[mortify]

[quote]"State law requires the school to fly an American flag during school hours, however no flag flies outside of TIZA Academy. Zaman told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS he didn’t know how to work the flagpole."[/quote]

[Galloglasses]

Don't be surprised, we were discussing American Political Culture in Politics class today. Quite few schools in the USA neither have flags outside of them (public Schools), nor are Oaths of Allegiance neccesary.

[CatherineM]

Here religious schools are financed the same as public schools. We have some publicly funded Islamic schools here. At least we get to request that our property taxes go to the Catholic school system. It used to upset my dad that our property taxes went to pay to send the neighbor kids to school, and we had to also pay parochial tuition.

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.islamist-watch.org/"]http://www.islamist-watch.org/[/url]

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1496610' date='Apr 10 2008, 04:48 PM']Yes but Jesus technically seperated Church and State Himself when he said, "Give to Caeser what is Caeser's and give to God what is God's"[/quote]
Give to God what is God's does not separate Church and state. that text is taken completely out of context. The pharisees are trying to trap Jesus. Everything belongs to God.

you cannot separate Church and State because States require some sort of religious foundation. even Marxism.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1497710' date='Apr 11 2008, 11:41 PM']Give to God what is God's does not separate Church and state. that text is taken completely out of context. The pharisees are trying to trap Jesus. Everything belongs to God.

you cannot separate Church and State because States require some sort of religious foundation. even Marxism.[/quote]

Marxism is not religious, it is a political ideology. Similar but not the same thing. I think you mean religious in the sense that it cannot be proven emperically.

And no I did not take that out of context. The Pharisees asked wether it was lawful [b]in the eyes of God[/b], for them, Jews, the people of God, to pay taxes to Caeser, a foreigner, a conquerer, an enslaver, a pagan and a gentile. You could not be more seperate from God and the Church then that. Christ's answer essentially meant it was just to pay taxes to the ruler of your country, even if you and members of your Church are in the extreme minority and the ruler is essentially godless. Church and State [b]are[/b] seperate, because if not, then the State would, naturally, use and abuse the Church. This has been seen in Europe after the Reformation, England and several German Princes as well as Scandanavian countries seperated from Rome, [b]and made established Churches[/b] of the new Protestant Churches.

In case you haven't noticed, these Protestant countries are also the ones currently dieing out faith-wise. Which is why the Papacy has its own state to alienate itself from interference from other countries. (Believe me, many times throughout history people wanted to control the Church so much, that they went to war with it), There is a seperation of Church and State.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1497792' date='Apr 12 2008, 07:47 AM']Marxism is not religious, it is a political ideology. Similar but not the same thing. I think you mean religious in the sense that it cannot be proven emperically.[/quote]
Marxism is in fact a religion. Man is inherently religious, even Atheism is religious (I am speaking as an ex atheist) with its own gods, priests, and hierarchy. Marxism presents a certain and specific view of reality, the cosmos, and human nature, it has its own philosophy and myths.
Religion: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

[quote]And no I did not take that out of context. The Pharisees asked wether it was lawful [b]in the eyes of God[/b], for them, Jews, the people of God, to pay taxes to Caeser, a foreigner, a conquerer, an enslaver, a pagan and a gentile. You could not be more seperate from God and the Church then that.[/quote]not true at all. first consider what would have happened if Jesus had said "dont pay taxes". it was a trap. second Jesus being God understood better than the Jews that the state was under God take Jesus's words to Pilate.
Syllabus Errorum all things mentioned here are condmend as heresy
[quote name='Syllabus Errorum']V. ERRORS CONCERNING THE CHURCH AND HER RIGHTS

19. The Church is not a true and perfect society, entirely free- nor is she endowed with proper and perpetual rights of her own, conferred upon her by her Divine Founder; but it appertains to the civil power to define what are the rights of the Church, and the limits within which she may exercise those rights.—Allocution "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854, etc.

20. The ecclesiastical power ought not to exercise its authority without the permission and assent of the civil government.—Allocution "Meminit unusquisque," Sept. 30, 1861.

21. The Church has not the power of defining dogmatically that the religion of the Catholic Church is the only true religion.—Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

22. The obligation by which Catholic teachers and authors are strictly bound is confined to those things only which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church.—Letter to the Archbishop of Munich, "Tuas libenter," Dec. 21, 1863.

[b]23. Roman pontiffs and ecumenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, [u]have usurped the rights of princes[/u], and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals.—Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.[/b]

24. The Church has not the power of using force,[b] nor has she any temporal power[/b], direct or indirect.—Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851.

[b]25. Besides the power inherent in the episcopate, other temporal power has been attributed to it by the civil authority granted either explicitly or tacitly, which on that account is revocable by the civil authority whenever it thinks fit.—Ibid.[/b]

26. The Church has no innate and legitimate right of acquiring and possessing property.—Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856; Encyclical "Incredibili," Sept. 7, 1863.

27. The sacred ministers of the Church and the Roman pontiff are to be absolutely excluded from every charge and dominion over temporal affairs.—Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

28. It is not lawful for bishops to publish even letters Apostolic without the permission of Government.—Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

29. Favours granted by the Roman pontiff ought to be considered null, unless they have been sought for through the civil government.—Ibid.

30. The immunity of the Church and of ecclesiastical persons derived its origin from civil law.—Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

31. The ecclesiastical forum or tribunal for the temporal causes, whether civil or criminal, of clerics, ought by all means to be abolished, even without consulting and against the protest of the Holy See.—Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856; Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

32. The personal immunity by which clerics are exonerated from military conscription and service in the army may be abolished without violation either of natural right or equity. Its abolition is called for by civil progress, especially in a society framed on the model of a liberal government.—Letter to the Bishop of Monreale "Singularis nobisque," Sept. 29, 1864.

33. It does not appertain exclusively to the power of ecclesiastical jurisdiction by right, proper and innate, to direct the teaching of theological questions.—Letter to the Archbishop of Munich, "Tuas libenter," Dec. 21, 1863.

[b]34. The teaching of those who compare the Sovereign Pontiff to a prince, free and acting in the universal Church, is a doctrine which prevailed in the Middle Ages.—Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851.[/b]

35. There is nothing to prevent the decree of a general council, or the act of all peoples, from transferring the supreme pontificate from the bishop and city of Rome to another bishop and another city.—Ibid.
[b]
36. The definition of a national council does not admit of any subsequent discussion, and the civil authority car assume this principle as the basis of its acts.—Ibid.[/b]

37. National churches, withdrawn from the authority of the Roman pontiff and altogether separated, can be established.—Allocution "Multis gravibusque," Dec. 17, 1860.

38. The Roman pontiffs have, by their too arbitrary conduct, contributed to the division of the Church into Eastern and Western.—Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851.

VI. ERRORS ABOUT CIVIL SOCIETY, CONSIDERED BOTH IN ITSELF AND IN ITS RELATION TO THE CHURCH
[b]
39. The State, as being the origin and source of all rights, is endowed with a certain right not circumscribed by any limits.—Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.[/b]

40. The teaching of the Catholic Church is hostile to the well- being and interests of society.—Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846; Allocution "Quibus quantisque," April 20, 1849.

41. The civil government, even when in the hands of an infidel sovereign, has a right to an indirect negative power over religious affairs. It therefore possesses not only the right called that of "exsequatur," but also that of appeal, called "appellatio ab abusu."—Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851

42. In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails.—Ibid.

43. The secular Dower has authority to rescind, declare and render null, solemn conventions, commonly called concordats, entered into with the Apostolic See, regarding the use of rights appertaining to ecclesiastical immunity, without the consent of the Apostolic See, and even in spite of its protest.—Allocution "Multis gravibusque," Dec. 17, 1860; Allocution "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850.

44. The civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government: hence, it can pass judgment on the instructions issued for the guidance of consciences, conformably with their mission, by the pastors of the Church. Further, it has the right to make enactments regarding the administration of the divine sacraments, and the dispositions necessary for receiving them.—Allocutions "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850, and "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

45. The entire government of public schools in which the youth- of a Christian state is educated, except (to a certain extent) in the case of episcopal seminaries, may and ought to appertain to the civil power, and belong to it so far that no other authority whatsoever shall be recognized as having any right to interfere in the discipline of the schools, the arrangement of the studies, the conferring of degrees, in the choice or approval of the teachers.—Allocutions "Quibus luctuosissimis," Sept. 5, 1851, and "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850.

46. Moreover, even in ecclesiastical seminaries, the method of studies to be adopted is subject to the civil authority.—Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

47. The best theory of civil society requires that popular schools open to children of every class of the people, and, generally, all public institutes intended for instruction in letters and philosophical sciences and for carrying on the education of youth, should be freed from all ecclesiastical authority, control and interference, and should be fully subjected to the civil and political power at the pleasure of the rulers, and according to the standard of the prevalent opinions of the age.—Epistle to the Archbishop of Freiburg, "Cum non sine," July 14, 1864.

48. Catholics may approve of the system of educating youth unconnected with Catholic faith and the power of the Church, and which regards the knowledge of merely natural things, and only, or at least primarily, the ends of earthly social life.—Ibid.

49. The civil power may prevent the prelates of the Church and the faithful from communicating freely and mutually with the Roman pontiff.—Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

50. Lay authority possesses of itself the right of presenting bishops, and may require of them to undertake the administration of the diocese before they receive canonical institution, and the Letters Apostolic from the Holy See.—Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

51. And, further, the lay government has the right of deposing bishops from their pastoral functions, and is not bound to obey the Roman pontiff in those things which relate to the institution of bishoprics and the appointment of bishops.—Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852, Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

52. Government can, by its own right, alter the age prescribed by the Church for the religious profession of women and men; and may require of all religious orders to admit no person to take solemn vows without its permission.—Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

53. The laws enacted for the protection of religious orders and regarding their rights and duties ought to be abolished; nay, more, civil Government may lend its assistance to all who desire to renounce the obligation which they have undertaken of a religious life, and to break their vows. Government may also suppress the said religious orders, as likewise collegiate churches and simple benefices, even those of advowson and subject their property and revenues to the administration and pleasure of the civil power.—Allocutions "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852; "Probe memineritis," Jan. 22, 1855; "Cum saepe," July 26, 1855.

54. Kings and princes are not only exempt from the jurisdiction of the Church, but are superior to the Church in deciding questions of jurisdiction.—Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

[b]55. The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church.—Allocution [/b]"Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.[/quote]
as you can see especially from number 55 The Church does not hold separation of Church and State

[quote]Christ's answer essentially meant it was just to pay taxes to the ruler of your country, even if you and members of your Church are in the extreme minority and the ruler is essentially godless. Church and State [b]are[/b] seperate, because if not, then the State would, naturally, use and abuse the Church. This has been seen in Europe after the Reformation, England and several German Princes as well as Scandanavian countries seperated from Rome, [b]and made established Churches[/b] of the new Protestant Churches.[/quote]
The Church and State are not to be sperate as shown above, the State is however Subject to the Church.

[quote]In case you haven't noticed, these Protestant countries are also the ones currently dieing out faith-wise. Which is why the Papacy has its own state to alienate itself from interference from other countries. (Believe me, many times throughout history people wanted to control the Church so much, that they went to war with it), There is a seperation of Church and State.[/quote]
Actually you may want to do a little research, the Pope before the Kingdom of Italy conquered the Papal states ruled a large part of Italy and the Pope did not "just give them up" because he thought popes should not govern or have earthly influence. [quote]Popes in their secular role gradually came to govern neighbouring regions and, through the Papal States, ruled a large portion of the Italian peninsula for more than a thousand years until the mid 19th century, when most of the territory of the Papal States was seized by the newly created Kingdom of Italy. For much of this time the Vatican was not the habitual residence of the Popes, but rather the Lateran Palace, and in recent centuries, the Quirinal Palace, while the residence from 1309-1377 was at Avignon in France.

In 1870, the Pope's holdings were left in an uncertain situation when Rome itself was annexed by the Piedmont-led forces which had united the rest of Italy, after a nominal resistance by the papal forces. Between 1861 and 1929 the status of the Pope was referred to as the "Roman Question". They were undisturbed in their palace, and given certain recognitions by the Law of Guarantees, including the right to send and receive ambassadors. But they did not recognize the Italian king's right to rule in Rome, and they refused to leave the Vatican compound until the dispute was resolved in 1929. Other states continued to maintain international recognition of the Holy See as a sovereign entity. In practice Italy made no attempt to interfere with the Holy See within the Vatican walls. However, they confiscated church property in many other places, including, perhaps most notably, the Quirinal Palace, formerly the pope's official residence. Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), the last ruler of the Papal States, claimed that after Rome was annexed he was a "Prisoner in the Vatican". This situation was resolved on February 11, 1929 between the Holy See and the Kingdom of Italy.[/quote]