Why Do Certain Communities Object To Aspirancies?

[Nunsense]

Another thought I just had was about a lady who entered a week after I did. She was only there for a week and it was obvious that she wasn't happy, so Mother Prioress had a talk with her and the next thing I knew, she was gone - without even happy goodbyes. Compare that with the lady who came for her 6 week live-in and then left. We had a party the night before she left, and then all gathered at the enclosure gate to hug her and say goodbye when she left.

Now the first lady was so sweet and kind to me, helping me with the Office and really just so charitable. I would have loved to have been able to hug her and say thanks, but obviously there was a sense of "failure" about her departure, and I can only think it is because she entered as a postulant and then left, rather than as a live-in. It was as if her leaving was an embarassment - and we never heard from her again, even by letter! The live-in lady however, stays in touch with the community and everyone prays for her, and she for them.

This just tells me that there is a lot of value in "testing the waters" before making a commitment - that way everyone can feel good even if the decision is not to enter or stay! I still think about that first lady and pray for her that she has found where God wants her - she was just so kind to me and I so hope she doesn't feel like a failure because of her experience.

[Graciela]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1497893' date='Apr 12 2008, 11:56 AM']A lady came to stay with us for a live-in while I was at Carmel. She stayed for 6 weeks and I think that she got a pretty good picture of what life was like there. I think that if I did something like that - it would help a lot. This lady loved the community, but since returning home, she has emailed me a couple of times and said that as much as she liked them, she wasn't sure she had found her "home" yet. So I think these live-ins can save everyone a lot of anguish. The community doesn't get so upset at a live-in person leaving, like they do when a postulant or Novice leaves, and the person doesn't feel like a failure. I think it is a win-win situation for everyone. And 6 weeks isn't that long away from work either.[/quote]


I agree that live-ins or aspirancies are great, especially for cloistered communities. I did one before I entered Carmel as a postulant, but then after 8 months I chose to leave, still feeling like a failure and basically an idiot. But the nuns told me stories of many who entered as postulants (in the days before a live-in was allowed) and didn't stay through the week! Now, it seems that a live-in would have helped avoid that!

In retrospect, I would say that I was able to keep the "stars in my eyes" for my 6 week live-in, but over months the unhealthy problems became unavoidable. OTOH, I learned so much and even though that place was not for me, the experience deepened and enriched my spiritual life and has opened my up for many surprises that God has had for me since then.

Aspirancies aren't a guarantee, but I think they are a very good idea. And initial formation will still be a time of ongoing discernment.

[HeavenlyCalling]

I think that a come-and-see or a aspirency is a good idea, however, I also think that if you leave at the end of our postulency ( from what I have heard 6mon. to a year ) there is no real shame in it. You have seen what the life is like without making any permenant commitment to the community ( like vows, for example ). Its not like leaving after making vows, where there is an offical prosses, your departure can then go fairly smoothly.

Edited April 12, 2008 by HeavenlyCalling

[jkaands]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1497448' date='Apr 11 2008, 05:48 PM']I know that with Carmel most of those who observe the 1990's constitiution usually do not allow aspirancies. Iam aware that some places do not have a guestroom like Iron mountain those who visit would usually have to make arrangements in town. Anyway, I was just wondering how this would disrupt their contemplative life with an aspirant. Also, one community I spoke with on this matter stated that they experimented with aspirancies and noticed that most did not preserve. I guess what didn't work for some doesn't work for all...?[/quote]

I don't understand the logic behind this. It's better if you leave as a [i]postulant[/i] rather than as an aspirant?

And as for the argument that you're more likely to 'stick it out' as a postulant, if you're having so much trouble then, what then down the road a few years...?

[Marieteresa]

From what I understand many communities consider the postulancy as the aspirancy.

[puellapaschalis]

Isn't postulancy simply the time where the looking, the asking, the seeing, the dipping-ones-toe-in get done? It's at Clothing that someone becomes part of the community and even then you're not bound to stay.

I've seen many communities which seem to have constructed rather elaborate mechanisms, gradually lengthening further and further the period of initial formation in the order. On the one hand I can understand some of the reasoning for this, but on the other - if there was just less stigma about leaving during one's postulancy, wouldn't people be under less pressure?

And - dare I say it - maybe if such a hoo-haa and song and dance on places like VS weren't made about someone entering the postulancy, maybe it wouldn't contribute to a sense of failure if someone leaves?

[Carolyn]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1498170' date='Apr 12 2008, 04:54 PM']On the one hand I can understand some of the reasoning for this, but on the other - if there was just less stigma about leaving during one's postulancy, wouldn't people be under less pressure?

And - dare I say it - maybe if such a hoo-haa and song and dance on places like VS weren't made about someone entering the postulancy, maybe it wouldn't contribute to a sense of failure if someone leaves?[/quote]

Good point.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1498170' date='Apr 12 2008, 03:54 PM']Isn't postulancy simply the time where the looking, the asking, the seeing, the dipping-ones-toe-in get done? It's at Clothing that someone becomes part of the community and even then you're not bound to stay.

I've seen many communities which seem to have constructed rather elaborate mechanisms, gradually lengthening further and further the period of initial formation in the order. On the one hand I can understand some of the reasoning for this, but on the other - if there was just less stigma about leaving during one's postulancy, wouldn't people be under less pressure?

And - dare I say it - maybe if such a hoo-haa and song and dance on places like VS weren't made about someone entering the postulancy, maybe it wouldn't contribute to a sense of failure if someone leaves?[/quote]


I'm only speaking for myself here but the enthusiasm on VS isn't the reason that a person has a sense of failure after leaving the postulancy - at least for me it wasn't. I have actually found VS to be totally supportive, no matter what phase I am going through. My sense of failure comes entirely from myself and no one else is to blame. Even the community was fantastic to me, and I am still in contact with them via email.

The difference between aspirancy (live-ins) and postulancy (at least for the Carmel I entered) is that a person can be invited for a live-in without any sense of long-term commitment whereas postulancy is expected to lead to Novitiate and later to vows so seems a bit more serious (at least to me it felt that way). Perhaps the postulancy was once considered more of an aspirancy, but I think that it is viewed more seriously these days. I know that at the Carmel I entered, the Chapter must meet and vote on accepting a person as a postulant, but a live-in can be done with just the approval of the Prioress (although the community is polled unofficially to get their feelings - but the Prioress can override this).

I know that if I went to a Carmel now on a live-in visit, I wouldn't expect to make a decision about applying to enter right away (sort of like dating), whereas if I was accepted directly as a postulant again (which I wouldn't want to do anyway), then I would feel as if I had made a choice (sort of like getting engaged). I think it is harder to break off an engagement than to just stop dating someone. What do you all think?

Edited April 13, 2008 by nunsense

[Guest ambrose]

I think your thoughts sound on track, nunsense. The analogy of courtship/etc works well, because indeed this is a *relationship* being established between an individual and a community rather than a radical lifestyle change. (though that too)

Being careful to remember I have limited experience with cloistered life (i.e. none), I assume, and note the word assume, that the lack of aspirancy might be motivated by a desire to preserve Cloister to it's fullest extent.

And again, another outsider assumption would be that whether a sister stays in the life or not probably depends on many variables. Aspirancy probably helps a little with discernment, however there's likely lots and lots of factors to determine whether a sister stays for life. Or not.

Side note: I am glad you've found VS supportive. You rock!

[irishdancer]

I'm smiling and a wee bit anxious as I write this. First of all, I too find VS very supportive. During the past year--while I lurked about--VS and Phatmass was the only place that I found a community of encouragement for the crazy idea of becoming a nun that wouldn't leave me in peace. Learning about the hopes and experiences of others has helped me see that discernment is just that...a process of listening and looking deeply with the help of those who have gone there ahead of me.

But I also have cheered for each brave heart as she/he takes the next step of entrance. And I am tremendously grateful for all who are open about your experience wherever it takes you. I'm still cheering for you. And I want/need you to cheer for me. The world --and I use this term in trepidation--does not give much affirmation for choices it neither respects nor values. Let us do that for each other as we strive to be faithful to whatever the Lord has called us to.

As for the come and see, The community I am discerning with requires it, although you do not stay in the enclosure but may enter it to work etc with the Sisters. It is open-ended although I think under one month would not be acceptable. Ann, please pray for her, who is entering this week stayed four months. I can only do two before family obligations --parent's wedding anniversary party-- require me to leave for a while.

But it should give me a feel for the community and them one for me as we live the Norbertine life together. And I continue to rely on your prayers and support although I won't be online while at the monastery. I promise to report back no matter what happens.

Michaela

Edited April 13, 2008 by irishdancer

[alicemary]

God go with you as you continue on your journey. I think spending even a month with your future community will give you a good idea what they are all about. Yes, the call to religious life may be the craziest thing you ever ponder. Somehow when a soul is touched by the love of our Lord, it is never the same again. Regardless of whether you enter or not, this time will be well spent. You will come back home with a clearer direction. Above all have fun and be yourself, you are quite special and very unique.
Please fill us in when you return.
Alicemary

[jkaands]

FYI, there's a Vocation Forum on forums.catholic.com which includes a long thread of women, including a number of young women, considering religious life. They are visiting communities, including non-habited ones, and ones filled with older members.--if anyone wants to dip in, visit, or join the forum.

[HisChild]

As someone who was in a monastery and then left, might I interject?

This was, granted, two years ago, but when I returned there were a couple here who did make a big deal that I left and through their responses made me feel as though I was a failure. These were responses all in private, however, and you'll never read any more mention of this from me, because MOST everyone was completely supportive, believing that first and foremost my vocation is to holiness, and not to a particular state in life. And in defense of those who responded... well, I was in a very hurting, dark place, and wasn't able to 'hear' some well meaning words. All is well... our Lord brought me around in His way, and in His time.

As to this thread... I wanted to mention, however, that had I had an aspirancy, I [b]might[/b] have been able to learn of some of the things that I did as a postulant and discern that the community wasn't for me... as it was, I became ill and had to leave anyway. But the point is, an aspirancy might have been revealing.

HOWEVER, (and this is pretty big, IMO) there are many things one must experience in order to discern fully. I know of an aspirant to the monastery I was in that loved the community. However, once she became a postulant, she lasted less than a week. As an aspirant, you may not see things in the same light as a postulant. As an aspirant, for instance, cloistered life might not seem restrictive. After all, even if only subconsciously, you know you'll be leaving in 6 weeks or 3 months. As a postulant, you've jumped in with both feet and fully realize you're there for good. Cloistered life have a different feel then. Any romantic notions you may have clung to as an aspirant are gone. There are other idiosyncracies or even more serious issues within a community that may not be revealed until you're fully immersed as a postulant or even later.

In the end, an aspirancy, while helpful to many, isn't an indication or a litmus of perseverance. It may assist one in deciding if she should enter, but it doesn't seem like there'd be great stats that she'd stay. Hope I made sense.

[johnnydigit]

very intriguing thread! i am discerning the CFR's in New York and i am way out here in California. i've only visited them once for 9 days, and hope they invite me back for the 2 week stay, and if that goes well, then invitation for the 6 month postulancy. i wish they were local so that i could visit them more often, and maybe even do extended stays that might be considered "aspirancy".

the initial thought of it sounds like a good idea, but for me, i don't think it would matter either way. over the past couple years of discernment, i think i have discovered what i need to discover about religious life enough to know if an order is more or less acceptable enough to me to enter as a postulant. if it doesn't work out there, on to the next, no big deal. let God lead the way.

perhaps since i'm not looking at the cloistered life i'm not as concerned about what the professed do in the enclosure. at my next Benedictine visit, they will let me eat with and interact with them more. if i'm still in the dark about a lot of their life yet want to enter anyways, well i don't think i'd hesitate and just go for it. if it turns out to be bad later, well so be it. leave. it would be a learning experience. let God lead the way.



so i guess my theme is, don't worry about it! inquire as much as is reasonable for you, and ask God to lead you and trust in Him. if it works out, great. if not, leave. don't worry about the "what if's". so like a broken record, just trust in God!

maybe i'm just really naive and/or really inexperienced and/or really stupid.. ah who cares, "let go and let God!" i just know i'm happy and at peace now and will let "Jesus take the wheeeeeel". if one door closes, He'll open another.

is it them, or is it really you? is it about trust? here, have a kit-kat bar!

[alicemary]

It is not always easy, however, to enter as a postulant when you own a home, car, are enolled in school, have debts to settle. Truly you believe when you enter, you will be staying forever, but we all know that doesn't always happen. At least if you have stayed with the community for some time you have a general idea of how things are. I think we are mostly talking about enclosed communities here. If it were an active community, I would definetly say you must must spend time with them and live their life. Emails and letters may be fine as an introduction, but believe me, I want to know what I am getting into.
Certainly, a month visist is not going to answer all your questions, calm all your fears. I have written to communities and felt that 'this was it'. When I visisted it was a totally different feel. Some things, like community spirit, sisterly charity can only be felt and experienced. And a prayer life is far beyond a set schedule. Do they really live their prayer life? Or do they run to chapel and off to their jobs and leave Jesus in the chapel.
When you are young, you certanly can just take off and join. You have your parents to fall back on if you don't persevere in the life. What if you sold your home, car and possessions and have nothing to return to. Just ask any of those that left in their postulancy. It is very difficult to return to secular life, and not even have any money left to start over. Many sold all their possesions before they entered and gave the money to charity.
I would certainly recommend investing that money and letting it grow when you do enter. If you make vows, then the money can either be given to the community or to ones family.
I feel for those who tried the life and did not stay. The postulancy is a time for exploration, but when they return home they find judgement has been placed on them. And to a person they state that slowing down and taking more time getting to know the community better may have helped.
Sorry, am too talkative this am!

[Nunsense]

johnnydigit you have the right attitude, so keep it as long as you can! We all need to trust more in God since it is His call we are trying to answer. As alicemary pointed out however, sometimes it gets a little harder as one gets older. When I was younger I had much more courage to start all over again when things didn't work out in some area, but now that I have less options to choose from, it gets a little scarier and even more trust is required.

Like some of the others here, I have had to start over again - no job, no car, etc... and like holychild, I have spent some time in the dark, hurting place at the idea of being a failure despite lots of support from others. So trusting has become just a little more of a challenge, although I know it is the only way to proceed.

It does seem like there are more and more stages being added to the whole discernment process however, without actually changing the fact that, as alicemary pointed out, one still must live the day to day life "as if it were a permanent state" in order to truly get the feel of the whole commitment.

So it does come back to trust, trust, trust. You think God's trying to teach us all something?

Edited April 14, 2008 by nunsense

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1499071' date='Apr 14 2008, 07:59 AM']johnnydigit you have the right attitude, so keep it as long as you can! We all need to trust more in God since it is His call we are trying to answer. As alicemary pointed out however, sometimes it gets a little harder as one gets older. When I was younger I had much more courage to start all over again when things didn't work out in some area, but now that I have less options to choose from, it gets a little scarier and even more trust is required.

Like some of the others here, I have had to start over again - no job, no car, etc... and like holychild, I have spent some time in the dark, hurting place at the idea of being a failure despite lots of support from others. So trusting has become just a little more of a challenge, although I know it is the only way to proceed.

It does seem like there are more and more stages being added to the whole discernment process however, without actually changing the fact that, as alicemary pointed out, one still must live the day to day life "as if it were a permanent state" in order to truly get the feel of the whole commitment.

So it does come back to trust, trust, trust. You think God's trying to teach us all something?

[/quote]

I am sorry you were hurting after leaving the monastery. It is SO hard to start over! Inner thoughts and prayers like, 'Should I just buy some furniture, etc. to tide me over or treat this as if my vocation is in the world?' Did you have a good and supportive parish to return to?
Feel free to PM me at any time, should you have need.

Yours In the Sacred Heart,

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1499038' date='Apr 14 2008, 07:43 AM']It is not always easy, however, to enter as a postulant when you own a home, car, are enolled in school, have debts to settle.[/quote]

that does sound tough, and i guess i'm blessed to not have much other than a car and a a little debt. while i was still unsure whether or not i was suited for religious life, i found myself starting to do little things that resemble the religious life. from daily Mass to modest dress, cleaning out my room and removing possessions, to recently throwing out my bed. i've felt that i don't really need anything and could survive on nothing for a while.

perhaps it's about whether or not you are sure about religious life? maybe it would be easier if you reached a point where you were ready to sign off the home, car, and everything, find a temporary place to live (unless they do have a live-in aspirancy), and just put it into God's hands to find you an order? kinda like just grabbing your backpack and heading out on your journey with no attachments, versus having a bunch of luggage, appointment book, bills, cell phone and whatnot to carry along.

now that i know i am not only suited for religious life, but that i actually want to and am eager to get started, i find it much easier to just trust and let God handle everything. i just go to whatever presents itself. visit? sure. diocese? um, ok. nebraska? sure. new york? sure. this order, that order? sure. not "oh wait i got bills.. gotta work that day.. i have appointments.." gotta find out for yourself personally, using reasonable deduction of course.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1499071' date='Apr 14 2008, 08:59 AM']johnnydigit you have the right attitude, so keep it as long as you can! We all need to trust more in God since it is His call we are trying to answer. As alicemary pointed out however, sometimes it gets a little harder as one gets older. When I was younger I had much more courage to start all over again when things didn't work out in some area, but now that I have less options to choose from, it gets a little scarier and even more trust is required.

Like some of the others here, I have had to start over again - no job, no car, etc... and like holychild, I have spent some time in the dark, hurting place at the idea of being a failure despite lots of support from others. So trusting has become just a little more of a challenge, although I know it is the only way to proceed.

It does seem like there are more and more stages being added to the whole discernment process however, without actually changing the fact that, as alicemary pointed out, one still must live the day to day life "as if it were a permanent state" in order to truly get the feel of the whole commitment.

So it does come back to trust, trust, trust. You think God's trying to teach us all something?

[/quote]

hehe i know there was a time when i would laugh at what i said. i almost make myself sick! hopefully it'll last and i can sustain the faith, if not continually grow, or get through the dreaded Dark Night if it comes..

prayers for you all!

[Guest Perpetualove]

What about the PCC's? When I was looking at them, they were totally, one hundred percent against a live-in. Has that changed? I know you can visit, but not "inside." Thanks in advance, Perpetualove

PS Thanks so much for sharing your stories...I had a similar experience which I will share at some point. I too felt like a failure, a complete disaster, and I still cry when I think about it! So...when I get my courage up, I will share, too! In the meantime, it's nice to know I'm not alone!