The Confederacy And A Pope

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500769' date='Apr 16 2008, 10:33 AM']It was always understood that the Union was always understood to be optional. in fact the founding fathers did not expect the union to last, what made the union the union was that it was understood to be optional. no state would have entered the union without the understood agreement that they could leave at any time.[/quote].
Whatever about what was "understood," what was the [i]constitutional[/i] basis for leaving the Union? A gentleman's agreement? The fact of the matter is, the South didn't care for the results of a free, fair, legal, and legitimate presidential election, and so decided to take their ball and go home.

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500769' date='Apr 16 2008, 10:33 AM']You don't fix peoples rights being violated by creating new ones (which is what affirmative action did).[/quote]
Actually, you do: they're called the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1500781' date='Apr 16 2008, 10:46 AM'].
Whatever about what was "understood," what was the [i]constitutional[/i] basis for leaving the Union? A gentleman's agreement?[/quote]
The constitution applied to the federal government it did not apply to the states. The States did not need a constitutional basis for leaving the union. as a matter of fact leaving the union is really the only defense a state has against an imposing federal government which is why it was understood that a state could do so.
[quote]The fact of the matter is, the South didn't care for the results of a free, fair, legal, and legitimate presidential election, and so decided to take their ball and go home.[/quote]
Actually the South did, that is how we got Jefferson Davis. The south did not vote for Lincoln they refrained from participating in the Union elections, and most states had recalled their congressmen and senators by then too. Lincoln was a tyrant by every definition of the word.

[quote]Actually, you do: they're called the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.[/quote]

Actually you don't. See the constitution in reality is suppose to reflect Rights God has given to man. where as affirmative action is Rights the government (the secular god) has given to man. (I am speaking particularly of the first 10). All of these amendments including the 19th amendments were all nightmares and the founding fathers would kill over them. they are a violation of States rights, it is the right of a State to determine who can and cannot vote.

I do hold that not allowing someone to vote because of the color of their skin is immoral. However you fix it on a state level not a federal.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500816' date='Apr 16 2008, 11:26 AM']The constitution applied to the federal government it did not apply to the states. The States did not need a constitutional basis for leaving the union. as a matter of fact leaving the union is really the only defense a state has against an imposing federal government which is why it was understood that a state could do so.[/quote]
We'll have to agree to differ. The word "union" has no meaning other than a composite of two or more things. From a linguistic perspective, only "composite of states" = "union" makes any sense.

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500816' date='Apr 16 2008, 11:26 AM']Actually the South did, that is how we got Jefferson Davis. The south did not vote for Lincoln they refrained from participating in the Union elections, and most states had recalled their congressmen and senators by then too. Lincoln was a tyrant by every definition of the word.[/quote]
I didn't vote for George Bush. Indeed, I am from NJ, which voted for Kerry in the last presidential election. Guess what? George Bush is our president.

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500816' date='Apr 16 2008, 11:26 AM']Actually you don't. See the constitution in reality is suppose to reflect Rights God has given to man. where as affirmative action is Rights the government (the secular god) has given to man. (I am speaking particularly of the first 10). All of these amendments including the 19th amendments were all nightmares and the founding fathers would kill over them. they are a violation of States rights, it is the right of a State to determine who can and cannot vote.

I do hold that not allowing someone to vote because of the color of their skin is immoral. However you fix it on a state level not a federal.[/quote]
Well, all I can say is that the Constitution itself, along with all the amendments, were agreed and implemented via a process to which everyone assented. My main beef with the Southern states seceding is that, as I've already said, they didn't like the outcome of a process to which they agreed and in which they participated, and when it didn't go their way they took their ball and went home.

[rkwright]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500816' date='Apr 16 2008, 11:26 AM']Actually you don't. See the constitution in reality is suppose to reflect Rights God has given to man. where as affirmative action is Rights the government (the secular god) has given to man. (I am speaking particularly of the first 10). All of these amendments including the 19th amendments were all nightmares and the founding fathers would kill over them. they are a violation of States rights, it is the right of a State to determine who can and cannot vote.

I do hold that not allowing someone to vote because of the color of their skin is immoral. However you fix it on a state level not a federal.[/quote]

Who cares what the founding fathers wanted? They gave us a document, and ways to change it. We have chosen to amendment and recognize Blacks as more than 3/5ths of a person (note it was 3/5ths not 1/5).

The purpose of the Constitution was to protect the people from the government; recognizing God given rights. It takes the federal government to step in and protect these rights when they are not recognized by the state including when Blacks are not recognized as persons by the states.