Traditions And Customs, Etc.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1503588' date='Apr 19 2008, 05:57 PM']Sometimes I chuckle thinking I am so terrible that God knew only if He called me to a so called 'strict' life that I would have the possibility of ever being good.[/quote]
Yeah, I feel exactly the same way!!

[jkaands]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1503959' date='Apr 20 2008, 06:05 AM']specifically what kinds of sufferings would a religious endure in order to merit it "overwhelming"? it seems like there is something more mysterious that people are referring to other than the tangible sufferings like from physical health - injury/age, mental - loneliness, faith, boredom, social/community life.. repression from obedience? some kind of psychological breakdown?[/quote]
I'll agree with JD on this one.

I am very concerned with the tenor of all this discussion. There is a certain masochistic strain in religious life devoted to penance and self-immolation which appeals to women, particularly young women. Sr. Josefa’s revelations reflect this tendency:

"As for you, you will live in the most complete and profound obscurity, and as you are My chosen victim, you will suffer, and overwhelmed by suffering you will die. Seek neither rest nor alleviation; you will find none, for such is My will. But My love will sustain you, and never shall I fail you."

--are not part of the canon of belief of the Catholic Church. They are private revelations and as such, may be deemed worthy of belief but are not required by believers.

St. Therese, who lived a very austere life and died indirectly from that austerity, showed the way with her Little Way. Every time she tried some dramatic austerity, over and above the usual austerities of Carmel, she got very ill. She learned from this not to seek out the grand, but only the little opportunities, minor self-denials and constant charity. Early on she would mix her food to make it taste bad; she soon got over this and learned to enjoy her food if it tasted good. She did not deny herself simple pleasures, few and far between though they were.

I think personally that deliberately seeking austerities, the knob in the bed, the ridges in the plank, the discipline (abandoned by most Carmels), and the hairshirt (abandoned by the Carthusians), are childish and tend to spiritual pride.

The love of abasement and suffering also is dangerous. It can lead to early death as Therese, Teresa of the Andes and Josefa experienced.--now all of these women lived in the 19th/early 20th c. and all in primitive circumstances according to modern times. Still...a modern Carmelite from Reno developed rheumatoid arthritis and suffered severely from it, so that when she finally was went to a doctor, it was too late, she had already developed irreversible deformities. This does not help the Carmel.

Therese taught that we should embrace the small (and large) humiliations and austeries of daily life and transform them. All great religions teach this, to forget self, to douse the ego, once and for all. As for penances, believe me, we all have myriads of opportunities in our everyday life, and if you don’t think so now, just wait until you’re married, or a parent--marriage and parenthood offer an unparalleled opportunity for penance (sleep deprivation, sometime for YEARS), self-abnegation and patience, or in religious life--ditto-, and beyond this, wait until you start to [i]age.[/i] THEN you will experience bodily penances aplenty!

[alicemary]

thank you for that last posting, I was really getting a little concerned about the tone of this discussion. Religious life will be difficult enough without adding so much reflection on the physical deprivations. It will be hard enough rising at 5 am to me. The monasteries I have visited have all had beds, without torture devices. I am sorry, but do not see the need for such things. If you need to beat your body up so that you can live as a nun, you can have it. Our bodies are the temples of the Lord. Yes, a nun can expect to fast some, to rise early, to not chose the menu for the day. Heck living in community will be moritfication enough, it ain't easy.
I live with physical pain every day, as do many people who are over the age of 50(yes ancient to many of you, don't worry you will one day be there). I can no longer kneel, cannot genuflect. Somehow I know the Lord understands and loves me anyway.
I would enter religioius life because I love the Lord. I don't need to beat my body into submission, I chose the life. Many of these practices were abandoned, and I am quite frankly shocked that they continue in some places.
Thank God there are solid relligious communities like the Summit Dominicans who live a joy filled life tempered with penances.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I agree with Jkaands and Alicemary. I have been learning that the greatest penances are the things that don't look like penance at all, such as learning how to be gentle when somebody falsely accuses you of something (that happened to me recently) or to take a correction quietly and gratefully when you know you're wrong and don't like it. This is the hardest of the two where I'm concerned. And no one knows the internal struggle and no one knows when you've triumphed. The lack of recognition, the lack of anything superbly difficult to make the task 'special', is why these things don't pass as penances. Yet these are the penances that make up day-to-day life for religious communities and laypeople alike. Not kissing people's feet or wearing a cilice.

I think that my sceptical attitude to corporal mortification (such as lying on a ridged bed) comes from the fact that I am disabled and I already find various day-to-day activities difficult enough. Why is it that people seek to hamper themselves physically when God has given them a body that works? Refusal to hurt yourself is not the same as self-indulgence. You don't have to harm yourself and disturb your sleep to be holy. I suspect that holiness is much simpler than it looks, which is precisely why some people shy away from it. There is a voice inside us that stutters, "But - but - but - I have to beat myself, go for days without food, pass every spiritual endurance test in the book...THEN I'll be holy." It's about feeling holy as opposed to being holy, and that isn't right. Another great penance is to accept yourself as you are, and that's something that extreme corporal mortifications can prevent. They mean that you try to expunge all failings from your mind and body via violent and increasingly obscure means rather than learning to live with them.

[EWIE]

or to take a correction quietly and gratefully when you know you're wrong and don't like it. This is the hardest of the two where I'm concerned. And no one knows the internal struggle and no one knows when you've triumphed. The lack of recognition, the lack of anything superbly difficult to make the task 'special', is why these things don't pass as penances. Yet these are the penances that make up day-to-day life for religious communities and laypeople alike.

You took the examples right out of my own experience. Self chosen "penance" is always the easiest and isn't penance at all. The body will acclimate itself to almost anything, even the ridge in the bed. But the false sense of self....THE EGO.....rebels when IT is denied. Try and sleep when the EGO is kicking and screaming at the false accusations it supposedly has joyfully accepted.....and NObody knows!!!!
Most of the Saints repented before they died, of the extremes they put their bodies through.
God said it is wonderfully made and in Genesis it tells us that God looked at the world that He made and said ""it is good", it is very good".
It is an old saying in Carmel that a Carmelite can sleep on anything. If you are tired enough you can sleep on the busy end of a rake.
BTW,.....the Carmel mattress with which I am familiar, was made of straw.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1504279' date='Apr 20 2008, 01:00 PM']I am very concerned with the tenor of all this discussion. There is a certain masochistic strain in religious life devoted to penance and self-immolation which appeals to women, particularly young women. Sr. Josefa’s revelations reflect this tendency:

"As for you, you will live in the most complete and profound obscurity, and as you are My chosen victim, you will suffer, and overwhelmed by suffering you will die. Seek neither rest nor alleviation; you will find none, for such is My will. But My love will sustain you, and never shall I fail you."

--are not part of the canon of belief of the Catholic Church. They are private revelations and as such, may be deemed worthy of belief but are not required by believers.[/quote]
If the Church has judged her writings, and ones very similar to hers, like the diaries of St. Faustina, St. Veronica Giuliani, or St. Margaret Mary, to be worthy of belief, I don't think it's in union with the mind of the Church to say such writings are "masochistic," and even have masochistic tendencies.

There are many many saints, and I don't believe I would be off in saying [i]all of them[/i], who offered themselves in union with Our Lord to suffer for the salvation of souls, and the Church has canonized them and offered them to us as examples of people who truly followed the Lamb and bore fruit a hundredfold.

And aside from extraordinary penances (which I know even the more traditional Carmels like Buffalo do not emphasis -- they are all about St. Therese's "Little Way" -- and yes, EWIE is right: when they refer to Carmelites that sleep on wooden planks - on top of these planks is a straw mattress, which is comfortable enough to sleep on - no Discalced Carmelite Monastery following the Constitutions of St. Teresa will have only a wooden plank as a bed)

But again, aside from external extraordinary penances, I don't think TotusTuusMaria is specifically talking about this, but the sufferings that Our Lord will allow a soul to endure who offers herself to Him in this way; the hidden sufferings He allows in everyday life, like those of Sr. Josefa or St. Faustina, which nobody around them knew of as they went about fulfilling their ordinary duties, whether spiritual or physical sufferings, or sufferings within community life, like not being understood, etc.

St. Therese offered herself as a victim and suffered terribly for it. In Fr. Benedict Groeschel's talk on St. Therese, [i]Darkness and Light[/i], he says St. Therese's "Little Way" is in reality a [i]very big[/i] way. She was constantly offering herself in everything she did, and in all the interior and exterior suffering Our Lord allowed her.

[quote]"If I did not suffer minute by minute, it would be impossible for me to be patient; but I see only the present moment. I forget the past and take good care not to anticipate the future." - St. Therese[/quote]
[quote]"But to be a martyr is what I long for most of all ... I am just foolish about this because I do not desire any one kind of torture; I would be satisfied only with them all. I want to be scourged and crucified like You, my Spouse; flayed alive like St. Bartholomew; thrown into boiling oil like St. John; and ground by the teeth of wild beasts like St. Ignatius of Antioch, so that I might become bread worthy of God. Like St. Agnes and St. Cecilia, I want to offer my neck to the executioner's sword, and like Joan of Arc, murmur the name of Jesus at the burning stake. My heart thrills at the thought of the undreamed of torments which will be the lot of Christians in the time of the Anti-Christ! I want them all to be my lot!" - St. Therese[/quote]
[quote]"Lord, either let me suffer or let me die." - St. Teresa of Avila[/quote]
[quote]"For my heart is always with Him, day and night it thinks unceasingly of its heavenly and divine Friend, to whom it wants to prove its affection. Also within it arises this desire: not to die, but to suffer long, to suffer for God, to give Him its life while praying for poor sinners." - Bl Elisabeth of the Trinity, OCD[/quote]
I think it's really off from the mind of the Church, to say that the desire to suffer in union with Our Lord for the salvation of souls is masochistic (which is [i]really[/i] off) or unhealthy. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and is the spirit of the saints.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Margaret Clare

[jkaands]

...but we don't know how many people have come to grief over trying to practice this spirituality. We hear only about the saints, and there have been fewer visionaries in recent centuries than in the past. I think that this sort of spirituality is potentially a very dangerous path.

I think that anyone who seriously wishes to follow this path to salvation should do so only with the guidance of a competent spiritual director, and in searching for a community, an equally competent vocational director as well. I don't know if these two are usually the same or not.

[Nunsense]

The safest way to practice any mortification, whether it be interior or exterior, is under the guidance of a competent spiritual director.

St John of the Cross said that physical penance is the penance of beasts. And yet this saint wore a chain around his waist that dug into his flesh and caused him to bleed when it was removed. One can only hope that he was under the guidance of a spiritual director when he did this! Of course in his day, attitudes were quite different regarding physcial penances. And yes, many saints later said that their physical penances were too much, but this is obviously the way that God was calling them at the time.

When I went into Carmel, I wanted all of the exterior mortifications and wished for penances, but there were very little of these available -- and as others have said here, it was the unexpected and everyday mortifications that were the real suffering for me.

There really is no point in physical mortifications unless they serve some purpose, such as to subdue a particular passion etc, but again, this should only be done under guidance and obedience. St Teresa of the Andes would ask for physical penances and her director would deny these to her. This is the only way to avoid the sin of spiritual pride which is lurking always.

I don't think the word "masochistic" really applies here because masochists actually enjoy physical pain whereas the whole point of spiritual suffering is that it actually involves suffering! If one is enjoying it - then it isn't suffering!

And I don't have all of the posts in front of me, but someone said that Therese's Little Way was really a Big Way - and I agree 100% - just try offering up every little thing to Our Lord and one soon finds that this is a very BIG task.

I think the main point is that the spirit behind the desire to suffer for Christ is really the important thing. He will take that desire and find a way to use it. Every day, in our lives, there will be occasions of suffering, and we can offer each of these up to Him. I didn't really understand this concept of suffering for Him until I heard something that Rosalind Moss said about it. I often wondered how we could add to anything that Christ had already suffered but she described it like this (and I am not quoting since I don't remember it exactly)... A mother goes into the kitchen to bake a cake. She has all the ingredients and knows exactly what to do - she needs nothing added in order to do the job. But her young daughter then comes into the kitchen and says "Mommy, may I help you?" Now the mother doesn't need help, and the daughter will probably even get in the way or make things harder, but the mother welcomes her help because it DOES add something to the making of the cake - but obviously not materially.

Whenever someone is passionate about something, it can seem scary - almost obsessive - but to me there is just something so beautiful about someone who loves Our Lord so much that they want to do anything for Him. I mean, martyrs were prepared to die for Him! Being in love means being a little "over the top" about everything but there is nothing wrong (in my humble opinion) with expressing a desire to suffer and die for Jesus ---- provided that person does not actually do anything except under competent spiritual direction. That way the masochists and the ego-maniacs can be weeded out.

We mustn't be afraid of passion - it is the way of all the saints!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

It is worth noting here that some of St Therese's grandiose passages about wanting to have all vocations and to suffer in every conceivable manner made her wince at later points in her journey. [i]She was not a saint from the very beginning of her life, and not everything that she committed to paper is a great spiritual document.[/i] When her sister Celine tried to take these things as examples of Therese's sanctity, Therese herself got distressed by it.

I was talking about this with a very old and experienced Carmelite novice mistress, who told me that people are either too unwilling or too afraid to accept Therese for the simple-hearted person she was and feel the need to seize onto the things about her that [i]they[/i] recognise - the desire for exotic sufferings, great chances to prove themselves worthy (only not worthy in [i]that[/i] sense, of course, because we are very humble people and we are prepared to lick grit from the floor of the refectory to show everybody just how humble we are), every possible test of spiritual endurance.

Anything but accept the quiet, almost monotonous rhythm of authentic religious life. When I was in Carmel I did get bored occasionally. I suppose beating myself from time to time or spoiling my food would have livened things up, but that wasn't what I was there for.

Saints did suffer. Suffering is a part of the human condition. But does genuine suffering consist in Blessed Jacinta refusing to drink water when she was burning up with fever, all because of her desire to save souls; or does it consist of the same Jacinta quietly accepting and drinking the proffered water - even against her will - because the worry of her daughter's illness was making her mother poorly too?

I faced a similar dilemma recently. I was at the house of a non-Catholic friend who has been quite ill. I had been invited to stay for a few days to cheer him up and help him get ready to go back to university. On Friday, the final day of my stay, his mother cooked a special meal. It was roast lamb with all the trimmings and a chocolate pudding to follow. Now, I fast on Fridays. Sometimes I don't eat anything at all. When I smelled the food cooking, I could have gone into the kitchen and informed my friend's mother not to take any trouble - I would just be eating an apple or a pear that evening, for religious reasons. I certainly wouldn't be able to have her lamb.

I went into the kitchen and the first thing she said was, "Thank you for being so good to my son."

That was when I realised that this meal was for me, as a thank-you. It would be a penance to eat it, but eat it I was going to. Every last mouthful. I saw then that austerities could be very selfish indeed.

It turned out to be a blessing, as it has made me re-evaluate my Friday penances. Do I fast out of habit? Out of desire to do the traditional Catholic thing? Or because God invites me to do so? And am I ever guilty of romanticising suffering?

Edited April 21, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[alicemary]

I think you have hit the nail on the head.....romanticisizing the suffering. When you do a penance, it is not something you broadcast to the world. It is approved by your superior and done in quiet. Or it s something the community does as a group.
And it may not be masochism directly, but it is some form of gratfication for what you are doing. No one is lying on a stupid knob or ridge on their bed night after night, and you tell me that is a normal thing to do? One wears a chain around your waist until you bleed and it eats into your flesh and tell me that is done for the greater glory of God? Today, if that wound got infected you would be shown the door because it costs alot of money to treat something like that. And you would be given a psychiatric eval. It makes no sense.
No where is the rigors and trails of living in community day after day week after week. St Theresa talks about the nun who sat behind her in choir and rattled her rosary beads....now that is real suffereing.
Young girls have always had a bent to anorexia...and some of these saints stories smack of that. Certain times condoned use of physical penances. Just as certain time condoned crucifixion as an effective death penalty.
Glamorizing 'saint's' who never ate or who tortured their bodies sets a very bad precedent. Back in 1850 maybe that sounded like the thing to do. I am sorry, but today it does not sound emotionally healthy TO ME.
Again, I say, God is a God of love. He loves us, He made us. He doesn't make junk. He made us in His image.
It is hard being physically seperated from the world, to be away from family and friends. It is hard not having that cigarette or bag of doritos. Those things, TO ME, are more valuable then wearing a hair shirt.

[Chiquitunga]

Guys, I don't think anyone is giving an unrealistic portrait of St. Therese, or really focusing on extraordinary penances here. This was more the argument in that thread from last year, the scandal of the monastic life or something -- though those were definitely great points CA and alicemary. It's comforting to hear that St. Therese later winced at some of the statements she made - I certainly do!

To offer a little humor, here's a little comic, the first of the series, from the Immaculate Heart Messenger Magazine (Oct-Dec '97 issue) which was a special Carmelite edition on the founding of the Alexandria, SD Carmel from Buffalo.
[center]
[img]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6154/hpscands842021541727zv5.jpg[/img][/center]
I think that quote from St. Teresa is really relevant here. I first heard it from Reverend Mother and the sisters at the Carmel of the Holy Cross in Iron Mountain, MI.

[quote][b]A good Carmelite eats well, sleeps well, and laughs well. -- St. Teresa[/b] [/quote]

Edited April 21, 2008 by Margaret Clare

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1503347' date='Apr 19 2008, 02:34 PM']... when I mentioned this to my spiritual director at the time, he said, "Doesn't sound like they leave much room for the Holy Spirit." so I was turned off them by what he said. Now I am thinking that perhaps she just tried to let me know these things so that I wouldn't be shocked when I went for a visit. I have found that priests often do not understand the Carmelite way. Even priests that came to our monastery would say things that made me realize that they just didn't have a clue what life was like behind the grille - not their fault since it is impossible to really understand without living it, I think.[/quote]

How true! And How Many times did Teresa and John warn about Confessors!

[Nunsense]

Margaret Clare - that cartoon is well known to Carmelites - thanks for sharing it here. Yes, I think that Carmelites are very practical on the whole.

A lot of good points have been made by everyone but the sad thing for me is to see spiritual fervour being confused with mental illness. It is true that there are young girls who are anorexic and who cut themselves and do all manner of horrible things to themselves because of emotional and/or psychological problems. That is probably why so many American religious communities do a psychological evaluation on each potential candidate (it doesn't seem to be so much the norm in Europe yet).

Hopefully, anyone who is suffering from a need to hurt themselves because of a psychological or mental or emotional illness, will be identified long before they actually enter a community. I know that it still does happen however, so that is why no physical penances should be commenced without the knowledge and permission of both the Prioress and the spiritual director.

That being said, there is still a place for idealism and passion in religious life. Romanticizing? Well, since when did being a romantic become a bad thing? As with everything, there has to be a balance between passion and common sense but what else is it that gets athletes through their own grueling practices to achieve incredible things? What is it that allows artists and dancers and musicians to push themselves to the limit to become incredible performers? I used to work with a ballet company, and when the dancers would take off their toe shoes, sometimes their feet would be bloody from all the practice! They didn't see this as masochistic or sick in any way. They just considered this part of the price they paid to become prima ballerinas! The thing is that the desire to suffer for Christ is still a valid concept - but as with most things, this needs to be tempered with comon sense and in the case of religious communities, obedience to the superior and spiritual director. Not all souls are called to the same thing but that doesn't mean that those who feel this call should be made to think they are sick in some way.

A certain amount of romantic zeal is what pushes people towards perfection - even if we never quite reach it! St Teresa called her book The Way of Perfection because her whole point was that we need to strive for that goal, even if we are only human and unworthy. Let's face it, we are never going to be "worthy" of what God gives us, but that doesn't mean we don't want to work towards this goal. Yes, He loves us anyway, unworthy sinners though we be. So our little efforts are to say "thank you" for the gift already given.

And once a person actually enters religious life, a lot of the romantic notions do get straightened out by the reality of the ordinariness of the everyday life. And then when a person starts to consider unusual penances, usually they come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to do something extraordinary while they are still having problems just doing the ordinary!

What inspires me though is when someone, anyone, feels such a love for Jesus that they want to do incredible things for Him. Sure, we can bring each other back down to earth again with all kinds of "reality checks" but let's not be so earthbound that we forget there is a supernatural side to loving God as well. Even if we are only little sparrows, it doesn't hurt to dream of flying with the eagles!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1505634' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:41 PM']Margaret Clare - that cartoon is well known to Carmelites - thanks for sharing it here. Yes, I think that Carmelites are very practical on the whole.

A lot of good points have been made by everyone but the sad thing for me is to see spiritual fervour being confused with mental illness. It is true that there are young girls who are anorexic and who cut themselves and do all manner of horrible things to themselves because of emotional and/or psychological problems. That is probably why so many American religious communities do a psychological evaluation on each potential candidate (it doesn't seem to be so much the norm in Europe yet).

Hopefully, anyone who is suffering from a need to hurt themselves because of a psychological or mental or emotional illness, will be identified long before they actually enter a community.[/quote]

Sometimes mental illness isn't obvious or easy to identify. And, of course, there are plenty of people who have [i]predispositions[/i] to mental health problems that never actually become full-blown illnesses - they manifest in the person's life in other subtle ways. I have a close friend who hurts herself as a way of appeasing God. A hundred years ago, that would have been hailed as the holy thing to do in certain quarters - especially as she is a devoted Catholic who is eager to do what is right. She has passion and love and faith by the bucketful.

She's also mentally ill. That doesn't detract from her friendship with Jesus in the slightest. Why should it? It's quite possible to be mentally ill AND on fire with faith and hope and love. But it does mean that she has to learn to recognise when she is using some austerity or other as a perverse means of self-comfort, in order to assuage a particular concern; and when she is doing simple penance in the peace of God. It's a difficult distinction for her to make, and I think that many people struggle with it - including people who are totally healthy in the mind. It is not easy to learn that the goodness of God and the things that give us an emotional 'buzz' (even if that 'buzz' consists of an aching back and oh-so-poetic feelings of spiritual desolation) are usually distinct.

[quote]That being said, there is still a place for idealism and passion in religious life. Romanticizing? Well, since when did being a romantic become a bad thing?[/quote]

Suffering is not good in and of itself. The Church does not teach this and has never taught it. As soon as suffering is made to look desirable, which is what romanticisation does to it, we are in danger of losing sight of what we believe. We may also start to elevate suffering above everything else in life, attaching a disproportionate amount of value to it.

In Marcel Berstein's book [i]Nuns[/i] there is an anecdote about a young girl who entered a Welsh Carmel only to return home disillusioned the very next day, without even unpacking her bags. The reason? She had arrived to find the nuns sitting down to a hearty supper when she had expected to live on nothing but the Host. I think that similar expectations live inside all of us, no matter whether they manifest as a desire for a graceful habit with a beautiful starched wimple and long veil or the idea of humbly kneeling down to speak to an abbess, eyes bowed in perfect reverence. And then the habit starts to feel hot and scratchy and the abbess gets a bit sharp-tempered one day, so the house of cards comes tumbling down.

You have far more experience in Carmel than I have, Annie, so I respect your insider's knowledge, but I can't see how such romanticisation can be a good thing. This isn't the same as working hard to excel at something. It's creating an imaginary version of the religious life that doesn't really exist.

[quote]As with everything, there has to be a balance between passion and common sense but what else is it that gets athletes through their own grueling practices to achieve incredible things? What is it that allows artists and dancers and musicians to push themselves to the limit to become incredible performers? I used to work with a ballet company, and when the dancers would take off their toe shoes, sometimes their feet would be bloody from all the practice! They didn't see this as masochistic or sick in any way. They just considered this part of the price they paid to become prima ballerinas![/quote]

I love ballet very much, but I know that part of the price paid by a professional dancer can include anything from ingrained toenails to deformed feet to serious cases of anorexia nervosa. I knew an ex-dancer who couldn't walk properly any more - she waddled like a duck. She didn't mind it and was happy that she had had the chance to devote herself to her craft - the pleasure of dancing onstage outweighed the difficulties presented by not being able to move with anywhere like the same grace and ease once she had retired (at thirty-one, as her feet would no longer permit her to work). I am not sure that this is the best analogy for religious life, though, as there is no other way to become a prima ballerina than to grit your teeth and stuff the toes of your pointe shoes with lambswool. There [i]are[/i] other ways to become a saint. Passion for God can be expressed through a healthy, nourished body and there is nothing about sleeping on ridges or wearing a spiked belt on Fridays that makes you any more holy than the nun who enjoys her sleep and thanks God for it sincerely in the morning, or whose Friday penance consists of sitting in silence and gazing at a crucifix. I think that loving God in these simple, quiet ways that attract no attention and win no admiration is the incredible thing.

[Laudem Gloriae]

I think what is also missing from these talks about saints and the sufferings and penances they did, is that these very saints were picked by God before hand! How many people are favored by God at the age of 3, 4, or 7? like St. Therese and St. Faustina? These saints and many others had visions or apparitions or some kind of encounter with God while very young. I can't remember exactly by St. Faustina saw or encountered God in some way in her back yard (?) at or near a tree.

St. Teresa of the Andes had an experience with Jesus at her first communion and when she told her mother, the mother was obviously surprised and to keep Juanita (St. Teresa) from getting a big head and maybe feeling superior about it, she told her daughter that Jesus speaks to all children at their first communion. Granted God probably does speak to us all but for the great majority of us it goes undetected!

So these saints - like the ones mentioned above - and others like St. Catherine of Siena, St. Margaret Mary and countless others (whether well known saints or not), are very special souls in mind, heart, body, soul, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, etc. that God has nurtured and cultivated to bear and carry His cross and sufferings for poor sinners and priests/religious, etc. from the start.

Was it Sr. Josepha who took the burden of the pain of the passion and carrying of the cross on her shoulder for a while so Jesus could rest for awhile and then He would come back to her and take His cross back and in the mean time she would suffer all the pains He had. I, too, would love to do that for Him who I love more than anything, but I know I couldn't begin too unless He did major work on my soul, pain levels, mind, etc!!!! But I can suffer in joy the crosses He does send me.

What is that saying about how we should accept the crosses Jesus sends to us and NOT go looking for ready made crosses or the ones WE want to pick because the ones God gives us are the best and the best suited to us.

Also St. Therese had a change of heart on physical penances when a young novice had gotten ill and she was ill due to an infection caused by wearing an iron chain and the saint told the novice not to wear it and then had to answer to Mother Marie Gonzague's ire when she found out that Therese told the novice to stop the penance that she (Gonzague) told her to carry out. Therese told the novice something like the big penances aren't for us who are little souls, or something. She had told her that she too used to wear these chains.

I am currently reading the book "The Life and Revelations of St. Gertrude the Great" and in it she wrote that Jesus told her that souls that had the good intention to do extraordinary things or penances or sufferings but couldn't due to a superior or spiritual director saying "no" or the souls themselves couldn't due to health, that God took these good intentions as if the soul HAD done these great penances and sufferings. So even if we can't take on great sufferings, pain and such like so many saints, blesseds, venerables and other great souls, just our desire too pleases Our Lord Jesus very much.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']Sometimes mental illness isn't obvious or easy to identify. And, of course, there are plenty of people who have [i]predispositions[/i] to mental health problems that never actually become full-blown illnesses - they manifest in the person's life in other subtle ways. I have a close friend who hurts herself as a way of appeasing God. A hundred years ago, that would have been hailed as the holy thing to do in certain quarters - especially as she is a devoted Catholic who is eager to do what is right. She has passion and love and faith by the bucketful.

She's also mentally ill. That doesn't detract from her friendship with Jesus in the slightest. Why should it? It's quite possible to be mentally ill AND on fire with faith and hope and love. But it does mean that she has to learn to recognise when she is using some austerity or other as a perverse means of self-comfort, in order to assuage a particular concern; and when she is doing simple penance in the peace of God. It's a difficult distinction for her to make, and I think that many people struggle with it - including people who are totally healthy in the mind. It is not easy to learn that the goodness of God and the things that give us an emotional 'buzz' (even if that 'buzz' consists of an aching back and oh-so-poetic feelings of spiritual desolation) are usually distinct.[/quote]

CA - you make a lot of really good points and I don't dispute the validity of being careful about mental illness. I was a psychiatric nurse and worked in prisons as well as hospitals - in the days before meds became so effective for conditions like schizophrenia and OCD. But just because some people are not able to discern between a genuine gift of self to God and a need to hurt themselves, doesn't make wanting to suffer for Christ any less valid.

I think that you and I are concerned about different things but that both of these are equally valid. There is a need to be careful about over-zealousness (especially in those who are not mentally healthy) but there is an equal need (in my opinion) to encourage and support a passionate love for Jesus, which can be manifested in a sincere desire to offer suffering to Christ. This does NOT mean that I am encouraging self-mutilation or masochism. I think one of the problems in this day and age is the fact that so many people have been led into cults and other activities that perpetuate self-destructive behaviors and this causes a natural hesitation to endorse anything that might appear too "over the top".

Let me address some of your statements individually…

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']Suffering is not good in and of itself. The Church does not teach this and has never taught it. As soon as suffering is made to look desirable, which is what romanticisation does to it, we are in danger of losing sight of what we believe. We may also start to elevate suffering above everything else in life, attaching a disproportionate amount of value to it.[/quote]

You are right - wanting to suffer for the sake of suffering is not a valid act of love. But having the "desire" to suffer for Christ IS taught by the Church...
[i]
Rom. 8:18 - the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.

2 Cor. 4:11 - while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus' sake so that His life may be manifested in our flesh. This proves the Catholic position that our sufferings on earth are united with Jesus in order to bring about Jesus' life in us.

Eph. 3:13 - Do not to lose heart over my sufferings for your glory. Our suffering also benefits others in the mystical body of Christ.

Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God's plan. Thus, Christ does not want our faith alone, but our faith in action which includes faith in suffering.

2 Thess. 1:5 - we may be made worthy of the kingdom of God for which we are suffering. This is because suffering causes us to turn to God and purifies us from sin.

2 Tim. 3:12 - all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But this persecution unites us more closely to Jesus and repairs our relationship with God. .

Heb. 12:5-7 - do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

James 4:8-10 - we must purify our hearts and grieve, mourn and wail, changing our laughter into morning and joy to gloom.

1 Peter 5:10 - after we have suffered, the God of all grace will restore, establish and strengthen us. God promises us that our suffering will ultimately be followed by glory. [/i]

Are these apostles being overly romantic? I don’t think so. Even the Mass itself is offered as a “sacrifice” to God, where we unite ourselves to the suffering of Christ.

In fact, Catholic Online has this to say about suffering (the emphasis is mine).

[i]FRUITS OF SUFFERING
Your sufferings are forming you and leading you to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to be agents of God.
This is an important lesson because we live in a society that works desperately to avoid suffering at all costs. We will even kill instead of suffer. We will kill animals through animal experimentation and we will kill people, through abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty. Whatever it takes to avoid suffering we will do as a race. The more we work to avoid suffering the more worldly we become.
[b]Now this does not mean that we seek after suffering. We are not masochists. We do not have to be. It does mean that suffering is redemptive to others and to ourselves[/b]. [/i]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']In Marcel Berstein's book [i]Nuns[/i] there is an anecdote about a young girl who entered a Welsh Carmel only to return home disillusioned the very next day, without even unpacking her bags. The reason? She had arrived to find the nuns sitting down to a hearty supper when she had expected to live on nothing but the Host. I think that similar expectations live inside all of us, no matter whether they manifest as a desire for a graceful habit with a beautiful starched wimple and long veil or the idea of humbly kneeling down to speak to an abbess, eyes bowed in perfect reverence. And then the habit starts to feel hot and scratchy and the abbess gets a bit sharp-tempered one day, so the house of cards comes tumbling down.[/quote]

Absolutely TRUE! The day to day experiences are more suffering than anything we could possibly dream up in our romantic little brains - and this is where the true saints are made (witness that I did NOT pass the test). The little postulant who left because she didn't get to live on the Host isn't alone in her disappointments (although her case IS a bit extreme). I was hoping for more fasting and more poverty when I entered Carmel, but instead I found my sacrifices in eating when I didn't feel like it and working when I wanted to pray instead.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']You have far more experience in Carmel than I have, Annie, so I respect your insider's knowledge, but I can't see how such romanticisation can be a good thing. This isn't the same as working hard to excel at something. It's creating an imaginary version of the religious life that doesn't really exist.[/quote]

Well, yes and no here. I had romantic notions that were dispelled by entering Carmel but that doesn’t mean that I think romanticism is totally useless. If human beings didn’t have romance in their souls, they wouldn’t believe that happy endings were possible. There can be too much romanticism, yes, but there can also be too much hard nosed reality. Let’s face it – there is absolutely no reason for any community to keep those floor length traditional habits in this day and age – but they invoke a sense of “belonging” to Jesus which is both romantic and inspiring. The habit I wore had an underskirt, an undervest, a long sleeved vest, a tunic, a scapular, a toque, an underveil, a day veil and a mantle. My head would get itchy but I couldn’t scratch it, my body would get hot but I couldn’t take off any of the vests without taking everything off due to the pins that are used to secure the scapular in place. The whole outfit is ridiculous! It doesn’t have any practical uses and has to be tucked up to do any real work. But not one of the nuns in my community wanted to change it! Romanticism? Yes. But every time I put it on and kissed the scapular and the veil, I would feel so close to Jesus and once it was on, I felt as if His arms were wrapped around me. So I admit it, I am a romantic at heart. I think that’s ok.

One of my favorite saints would be considered a definite mental case in this day and age. St Mary Magdalene de Pazzi would run through her convent shouting out "Love is not loved!" and would climb a ladder just to grab a crucifix to hug and kiss it. Talk about a true romantic! But you know what? There is room for pragmatists and romantics both. And just because a person is a romantic, doesn't mean they can't also see the practical side of things. Although I love the idea of suffering for Jesus, I am realistic enough to know that He isn't asking me to do injury to myself just for the sake of it. I think the whole issue here might be one of "degree". Sleeping on a hard bed does not appear to me to be an act of self-mutilation and if someone wants to do it - why not? Using the cilice or discipline until blood is drawn - now that is a different thing altogether, and does appear to be more an act of spiritual pride than one of love.


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']I love ballet very much, but I know that part of the price paid by a professional dancer can include anything from ingrained toenails to deformed feet to serious cases of anorexia nervosa. I knew an ex-dancer who couldn't walk properly any more - she waddled like a duck. She didn't mind it and was happy that she had had the chance to devote herself to her craft - the pleasure of dancing onstage outweighed the difficulties presented by not being able to move with anywhere like the same grace and ease once she had retired (at thirty-one, as her feet would no longer permit her to work). I am not sure that this is the best analogy for religious life, though, as there is no other way to become a prima ballerina than to grit your teeth and stuff the toes of your pointe shoes with lambswool. There [i]are[/i] other ways to become a saint. Passion for God can be expressed through a healthy, nourished body and there is nothing about sleeping on ridges or wearing a spiked belt on Fridays that makes you any more holy than the nun who enjoys her sleep and thanks God for it sincerely in the morning, or whose Friday penance consists of sitting in silence and gazing at a crucifix. I think that loving God in these simple, quiet ways that attract no attention and win no admiration is the incredible thing.[/quote][i][/i]

Well, there are many examples of great artists or athletes suffering for their art/sport/craft etc.. and I am sure there are just as many examples of people who have damaged their bodies and had to retire or who did not succeed in achieving what they wanted, but does that mean that no one should even try?

Yes, there are many ways to be a saint – just as there are many different varieties of flowers. St Therese is always thought of in connection with roses. I decided that my flower would have to be a bougainvillea because it is basically considered a weed, and it has thorns as well! And just because there are so many different ways to be a saint, that means that the person who proceeds in “simple, quiet ways that attract no attention and win no admiration” is just as loved by God as the person who wants to do great things and suffer great hardships for God. One doesn’t make the other less valid as a path.

Now having said all that – and written a veritable novel in the process, I will state my point of view, which is that nothing at all is of any use at all unless it is done in love and with love and for love. St Paul told us that [i]“If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.”[/i]

[gloriagurl]

I think personally that deliberately seeking austerities, the knob in the bed, the ridges in the plank, the discipline (abandoned by most Carmels), and the hairshirt (abandoned by the Carthusians), are childish and tend to spiritual pride.


I agree jkaands...espcially about spiritual pride....but for the record, Carthusians still wear the hairshirt. I have a very close friend who is ex-Carthusian (stayed for 7 years, only left a few years ago is now a priest elsewhere) and when I asked him about it he said 'YES' they still wear it - all the time - HOWEVER, he personally felt that it was not a terribly effective penance......because (at least for him) after a few months you don't even notice it's there and in fact, once he stepped into the shower with his on. In fact he has often said to me that there is great spiritual danger (I think the pride you speak of is what he means) in the "penances we choose" and the the "penances we DON'T choose are more likely to be the helpful ones.

[DiscerningSoul]

There are so many good penances one can do, such as say a chaplet when your not all up to it,goto extra Mass'es, go with out TV, walk to work, do laundry by hand and so much more.
One penance I do is kneel for an hour or at least thru the rosary, and I don't mean leaning back on your feet, full upright kneeling with no support, this is not easy and its not to painful but after an hour you feel good about saving souls!

Edited April 21, 2008 by DiscerningSoul

[Saint Therese]

I find this thread very interesting. I don't think the corporal penances practiced by the Littleton Carmel are extreme. Extreme to US, perhaps. But our culture is one of EXTREME over concern for bodily comfort. I think the penance are very similar to ones practiced by the original Teresian Carmelites. St. Teresa herself slept on a bed with a wooden block as a pillow. Also, in my opinion, it would not be completely correct to say that St. Therese was against penance. When the community took the discipline she hit herself as hard as possible, because she " didn't want to do anything by halves". Her spirituality, the Little Way, is very penetential when practiced according to her ideal.

[jkaands]

[quote name='gloriagurl' post='1505896' date='Apr 21 2008, 04:49 PM']I think personally that deliberately seeking austerities, the knob in the bed, the ridges in the plank, the discipline (abandoned by most Carmels), and the hairshirt (abandoned by the Carthusians), are childish and tend to spiritual pride.
I agree jkaands...espcially about spiritual pride....but for the record, Carthusians still wear the hairshirt. I have a very close friend who is ex-Carthusian (stayed for 7 years, only left a few years ago is now a priest elsewhere) and when I asked him about it he said 'YES' they still wear it - all the time - HOWEVER, he personally felt that it was not a terribly effective penance......because (at least for him) after a few months you don't even notice it's there and in fact, once he stepped into the shower with his on. In fact he has often said to me that there is great spiritual danger (I think the pride you speak of is what he means) in the "penances we choose" and the the "penances we DON'T choose are more likely to be the helpful ones.[/quote]

Thanks, GG

The use of the hairshirt may vary with the charterhouse. Or it may be optional.

Sad to say, there are only about 350 Carthusian monks left in the world, and I think the average age is high. About 75 nuns, who were only recently allowed(!) It may be in future that there will be more nuns than monks!


"Into Great Silence" is now available on netflix, in case there's anyone out there who hasn't seen it!

Edited April 22, 2008 by jkaands