Justification

[picchick]

This is how I think of it: I have the "prove it" frame of mind. You believe in Jesus? You believe in God? You have faith? Prove it!

Faith without works is like faith without proving that you have faith. That is why faith without works is dead faith. If you cannot show your faith to others through the works you do, then you cannot claim that you have faith. What is the point in believing and having faith if you do not share it with others?

Do you remember Jesus saying in the NT about how if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains? If someone is able to move mountains with a tiny bit of faith, then works should naturally flow from it, I would think.

Faith is also growing. Mine I know is constantly growing and growing throughout my life. I am sure that God not only graces everyone for their faith proved through works in a specific point in time but also a continual "infusion" (sorry my nurse is showing) of grace to help perform those works.

I hope I am staying on topic...

[Deb]

[quote name='picchick' post='1509399' date='Apr 25 2008, 09:38 AM']This is how I think of it: I have the "prove it" frame of mind. You believe in Jesus? You believe in God? You have faith? Prove it!

Faith without works is like faith without proving that you have faith. That is why faith without works is dead faith. If you cannot show your faith to others through the works you do, then you cannot claim that you have faith. What is the point in believing and having faith if you do not share it with others?

Do you remember Jesus saying in the NT about how if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains? If someone is able to move mountains with a tiny bit of faith, then works should naturally flow from it, I would think.

Faith is also growing. Mine I know is constantly growing and growing throughout my life. I am sure that God not only graces everyone for their faith proved through works in a specific point in time but also a continual "infusion" (sorry my nurse is showing) of grace to help perform those works.

I hope I am staying on topic...[/quote]

I agree completely. If you have faith and continually strive to be more like Jesus Christ, it will manifest itself in the works that you do. All good comes from God and the more faith we have in that, the more it comes out in the way we live our lives and the work we do. True faith will motivate you to share that faith with others in your words and in your deeds. You can't help it, God makes it happen.

[dairygirl4u2c]

apo.... how would you describe the atonement? i don't like the idea of legal atonement, or legal justification etc. the irony of course is that i often get caught up in the prot catholic type rhetoric on the matter. like speaking in human terms for something i don't even believe describes true reality.
i know you follow eastern ways of thought so get your ideas.

i like the idea of simply saying jesus is a savior in that he medicallly resusitates us, saves us whereever we go, has a good message, is divine and can intercede etc... just uncomfortable saying anything legal related.

but with taht said... orthodox and easterns say that atonement occured at death... does this simply mean he had to die to be able to fully become a savior by not being in person form etc, or what? cause i don't see why he had to die necessarily, if you don't look at it as legal atonement. but i do see why he had to for some purposes but not sure what the west wuld say those purposes are.

so i guess i mostly am asking how you square the necessity of his death, or what his death means, with eastern ideas on theosis and atonement.
that's a point that seems kind of vague from the east (recognizing they are not as intent on defining everything as the west is so maybe no definitive answer but)

Edited April 25, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1509399' date='Apr 25 2008, 08:38 AM']This is how I think of it: I have the "prove it" frame of mind. You believe in Jesus? You believe in God? You have faith? Prove it!

Faith without works is like faith without proving that you have faith. That is why faith without works is dead faith. If you cannot show your faith to others through the works you do, then you cannot claim that you have faith. What is the point in believing and having faith if you do not share it with others?

Do you remember Jesus saying in the NT about how if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains? If someone is able to move mountains with a tiny bit of faith, then works should naturally flow from it, I would think.

Faith is also growing. Mine I know is constantly growing and growing throughout my life. I am sure that God not only graces everyone for their faith proved through works in a specific point in time but also a continual "infusion" (sorry my nurse is showing) of grace to help perform those works.

I hope I am staying on topic...[/quote]

What if the only proof is the people you testified too, when God motivated it, and they responded?

Show your faith?

What if the proof was just praying to God in your closet for sinners to repent, and half way around the world God fulfills your prayer with a revival in Afghanistan?

Works are done in secret, and then shared when they are in the open. There are little old ladies who are praying right now, for God to help their communities, and their churches, that God will reveal their works after.

But those works don't qualify us for grace. Grace is undeserved. I can do nothing to force God to forgive me of my sins. There is nothing I can do to remove the sins I have committed. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation.

But God loved me, and sent his son for my salvation.

And now, I gratefully accept that salvation by sharing it with others, sharing God's insights with others. But that doesn't mean that I am earning salvation. I can't earn salvation through these acts.

I am here by the grace of God alone. I can do nothing without Jesus. Everytime I do something on my own, God just warns me and repremends me for my rebellion. God alone is my salvation, and there is nothing I can do but trust in his inpeccable character.

Edited April 25, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[picchick]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1509838' date='Apr 25 2008, 06:59 PM']What if the only proof is the people you testified too, when God motivated it, and they responded?

Show your faith?

What if the proof was just praying to God in your closet for sinners to repent, and half way around the world God fulfills your prayer with a revival in Afghanistan?

Works are done in secret, and then shared when they are in the open. There are little old ladies who are praying right now, for God to help their communities, and their churches, that God will reveal their works after.

But those works don't qualify us for grace. Grace is undeserved. I can do nothing to force God to forgive me of my sins. There is nothing I can do to remove the sins I have committed. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation.

But God loved me, and sent his son for my salvation.

And now, I gratefully accept that salvation by sharing it with others, sharing God's insights with others. But that doesn't mean that I am earning salvation. I can't earn salvation through these acts.

I am here by the grace of God alone. I can do nothing without Jesus. Everytime I do something on my own, God just warns me and repremends me for my rebellion. God alone is my salvation, and there is nothing I can do but trust in his inpeccable character.[/quote]


I think you misunderstood me....
I am not saying prove it to me per se. I am saying prove it to God. Works will come naturally if you have faith. It is something that cannot be helped. If you have such a strong faith in God your heart would be overfilled with joy that you would naturally want to share it with those around you.

Only God can see the good we do. Most of the good we do is hidden or goes unappreciated by the world. But God sees the good we do and He rewards us with grace.

Do not tell me that when God does not help me do these good deeds. Do not tell that God does not grant me the grace for the works I do. It is only by that grace and by my faith in God that I perform them.

If someone says they have faith but does nothing about it...does not pray/talk to God, does not perform works of charity what is it of his faith? It is dead.

[KnightofChrist]

[b]Showing, Living the faith[/b]

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[b]Not showing not living the faith.[/b]

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[dairygirl4u2c]

you cna't really argue "prove it" means catholics are earning something onlygrace can give. "prove it" is teh whole point of James 2, even by noncatholic standards.

you cant say catholics think X amount oeaf works saves, cause that's not at least a real doctrine of theirs.

the only thing you can argue against is the idea that santification also justifies.
protetstants thinks works are required, just not taht they justify.
so, in both camps, the same amount of works are required. the only question is what they accomplish in the economy of salvation.

i'm just making the point ot be clear, as i'm either misreading people or they misunderstand it. it's important distinctions i'm drawing.

Edited April 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[picchick]

Dairygirl...I'm sorry...am I on or off topic? I got side tracked....also am I making sense?

Edited April 26, 2008 by picchick

[dairygirl4u2c]

i was mostly speaking to jesusismy

your points are important, more incidental to the thread i'd say, as "prove it" seems vague and doesn't describe how works are applied etc. a protestant cannot disagree with "prove it" after all, a decent protestant anyway.

now, they might disagree with what you are trying to insinuate, but taht gets into the more defined terms like "santification" and "justification" and what i have been talking about.

for jesusismy to debate what you said... given how nondisagreeable it is what you said... is just quibbling and not really getting to the essence of the issue, cause what you said, on its face, again is not something that can be disagreed with.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1509873' date='Apr 25 2008, 06:33 PM']I think you misunderstood me....
I am not saying prove it to me per se. I am saying prove it to God. Works will come naturally if you have faith. It is something that cannot be helped. If you have such a strong faith in God your heart would be overfilled with joy that you would naturally want to share it with those around you.

Only God can see the good we do. Most of the good we do is hidden or goes unappreciated by the world. But God sees the good we do and He rewards us with grace.

Do not tell me that when God does not help me do these good deeds. Do not tell that God does not grant me the grace for the works I do. It is only by that grace and by my faith in God that I perform them.

If someone says they have faith but does nothing about it...does not pray/talk to God, does not perform works of charity what is it of his faith? It is dead.[/quote]

One of my posting styles is to take a post from someone, which goes in line with what I would like to say, and just put a couple of thoughts.

I like the thoughts you have put forward.

I agree, you can't have dead faith.

I am glad you are thinking before you answer, because I appreciate your answer a lot. If you have a heart of worship filled with joy because Jesus died for your sins, then get excited, share it with others, as God moves you to.

I can tell you have a gentle spirit, and an understanding of the works of God. Continue to pray and read your bible sister. You will be a great witness for God, when the time comes. Perhaps you should start a bible study group. Do you go to college? Maybe its time for you to start advertising a bible study group, if you're up for it.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1510045' date='Apr 25 2008, 08:28 PM']i was mostly speaking to jesusismy

your points are important, more incidental to the thread i'd say, as "prove it" seems vague and doesn't describe how works are applied etc. a protestant cannot disagree with "prove it" after all, a decent protestant anyway.

now, they might disagree with what you are trying to insinuate, but taht gets into the more defined terms like "santification" and "justification" and what i have been talking about.

for jesusismy to debate what you said... given how nondisagreeable it is what you said... is just quibbling and not really getting to the essence of the issue, cause what you said, on its face, again is not something that can be disagreed with.[/quote]

Let me reiterate my position.

Justification comes from faith, and faith without works is dead faith. So if you have living faith, and you work for the betterment of man kind, see through the deceptions of the devil - such as its okay to fertilize eggs with certain sperm to prevent genetic disease, because God should be the only one who decides who gets born, and believe the rest is provided by Jesus Christs death on the cross, God will see your heart, and your works, and say - thank you.

Remember, scripture also says people will say, Jesus I did this, and Jesus I did that, and Jesus will say - I never knew you.

Think about that. When you say I did this, and I did that, who are you focused on? You or Jesus? Are you glorying in yourself and your works? Paul say, I have no glory in myself, but the glory of the knowledge of Christ Jesus. Paul said, all he counted all the things he was, and all the things he had were but dung (sh*t) to him. Pretty strong words about works. My works are sh*t compared to what Jesus Christ did on the cross. My righteousness is filthy rags compared to God's holiness.

Santification of course is growing closer and closer to God. I question you are even involved in the process diary, talking about one of the devil's deceptions as if it were good on other message board topics. God is soverign, and he has the only right to decide which sperm fertilizes which egg to create which individual(s). I don't trust a person who says they are a Christian who would talk about something that 'boderlines' Eugenics!

[picchick]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1510047' date='Apr 25 2008, 09:29 PM']One of my posting styles is to take a post from someone, which goes in line with what I would like to say, and just put a couple of thoughts.

I like the thoughts you have put forward.

I agree, you can't have dead faith.

I am glad you are thinking before you answer, because I appreciate your answer a lot. If you have a heart of worship filled with joy because Jesus died for your sins, then get excited, share it with others, as God moves you to.

I can tell you have a gentle spirit, and an understanding of the works of God. Continue to pray and read your bible sister. You will be a great witness for God, when the time comes. Perhaps you should start a bible study group. Do you go to college? Maybe its time for you to start advertising a bible study group, if you're up for it.[/quote]

That sounds like a good idea. The only thing is I am not qualified for anything like that. I have only had basic religion courses. I do go to college but I will be done in ONE WEEK anyway. Glad to have things clarified.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1510065' date='Apr 25 2008, 08:42 PM']That sounds like a good idea. The only thing is I am not qualified for anything like that. I have only had basic religion courses. I do go to college but I will be done in ONE WEEK anyway. Glad to have things clarified.[/quote]

Who says?

A bible study is not about teaching religion, it is about sharing Christ with people. Of course, Jesus said - go out into all the world and teach the world. . .

He didn't mean it just for the 12, he meant you and me as well!

BTW, I like the composition of your photograph. If that is your choice in comp, you have some talent. Keep it up.

Edited April 26, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[dairygirl4u2c]

also... picchick your points in your second post about grace is very warranted.
the idea that one could "earn" grace, and how grace works is very crucial issue. the heart of it, i'd manage.
i'd even venture that that's where the debate should be moving, and anything i said is just introductory setting some important distinctions.

[dairygirl4u2c]

...

Edited April 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

jesusis... you need to lay off the eugenics stuff. it's like ad homeniems that doesn't actually argue the points. somehting not uncommon from you.
as to preventing diseases, you are deceived. you are living a lie. but that's anotehr thread at another time.

time to get back to talking about santification justification and grace.
i'm still not sure what exactly your disagree with as per catholics.

Edited April 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1507021' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:09 PM']Those men sound like greedy selfish pigs to me. I could be wrong though. I am sure they aren't Americans.[/quote]
Erin Brockovich is an American who almost single handily sued a firm in the united states for doing that. I remember the line in the movie from the judge. The corporation wanted the case to be dismissed, and the impartial judge said,

"I find it disturbing that you would print out pamphlets saying the toxic waste is good for you!"

It made me laugh, but it shows how greedy the elite are, and what lengths they would go to for lust of money. It happens in every single country. Our politicians are bought by powerful individuals who have the politicians look after the corporate needs of that corporation instead of the needs of the people.

I hate (don't hate, appreciate) that evil, and how our elected leaders are comprimised through support of the evil of being bought and sold!

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1510075' date='Apr 25 2008, 08:51 PM']jesusis... you need to lay off the eugenics stuff. it's like ad homeniems that doesn't actually argue the points. somehting not uncommon from you.
as to preventing diseases, you are deceived. you are living a lie. but that's anotehr thread at another time.

time to get back to talking about santification justification and grace.
i'm still not sure what exactly your disagree with as per catholics.[/quote]

LOL!

Diary, the more you post, the more I clearly see something most don't.

There will be ones who will see the truth as lies and the light as darkness at the end of this age. You're one of them.

I can't believe you haven't mustered the courage up yet diary. Nobody here should trust you.

Remember, one in two will be taken dairy, the way you're going about this, it is so obvious that you will be taken in judgment unless you repent.

But I agree, let us continue to talk about faith and works and justification and sanctification. I may be able to accomplish two goods within this topic.

Edited April 26, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[dairygirl4u2c]

dude whatever. you are as deceived as they come. you know some truth, but manage to kill the rest, much like the pharasees did.
you come here, acting like catholics do not understand the ways of God, grandstanding yoru relationship with God when what you have or what Gods ways are are not necessarily exclusive to catholics.

instead of all that, why don't you actually debate?
why don't you just stick to the topic for a change. actually address the points.
we can have emotional appeal to a significant extent in the debate board, but it should mostly coched within well reasoned argument.

issues which mainly are... what do you actually disagree with as per catholics on this matter? how do you think your idea of grace is different given that they don't think they can earn grace, but given that you surely have to think the more you do the more you open yourself, the more God will work within you. there's balance there that i don't think excludes you from catholic though. but i can't know unless you speak.

Edited April 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1510085' date='Apr 25 2008, 09:05 PM']Remember, one in two will be taken dairy, the way you're going about this, it is so obvious that you will be taken in judgment unless you repent.[/quote]

Are you God, Jesus Christ to know such a thing? And again I ask you, are you infallible to know that others do not have the spirit to know scripture but you do?

Yes, I know you don't like to respond to me, you've declared me you enemy, thou I pray for you. Anyway you should think of others that will visit these threads years from now and see your inabilty to answer with sound faith, reason and truth. Your silence only serves to discredit you.