Death Penalty (poll)

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506843' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:07 PM']THe only reason its expensive is because the state has appeal after endless appeal which as a delaying tactic is a miscarriage of justice. Remove the endless appeal process and the costs would drop dramatically.[/quote]
I just happened to wander in here...weren't we discussing appeals in another thread?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1506866' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:20 PM']lol cmom isn't this a bit circular? These murders are going to murder other murders, we should just murder them first.

Of course I don't know how the prison system works and who is housed with who, and who is killing other prisoners...[/quote]
First of all, a person legally put to death by the state isn't murdered, they are exucuted. There is a big difference. They have been duly tried and convicted of a capital crime.
They are not innocent.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506877' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:26 PM']They have been duly tried and convicted of a capital crime.
They are not innocent.[/quote]Not all who are convicted are truly guilty.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kujo' post='1506861' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:18 PM']The point that I believe the Catechism is making is that criminals are put to death in order to protect the innocent, not to protect other criminals. Besides which, are you saying that, rather than spending more money to hire more C.O.s, installing more security measures, and offering more counciling and other services, we should just put them to death? Better the state kills them then another criminal, eh?

I don't see the logic there, CM. Sorry.[/quote]
Excuse me, the people in prison are there because they are convicted of a crime, and have the right to be protected from other prisoners just like the guards are. The prisons are much more dangerous without the death penalty.
And yes instead of building more expensive prisons to keep convicted murders on death row for the rest of their lives, why don't we carry out the sentences they were given and execute them? Sorry if that actually seems too logical to everyone. Again I can see why atheists object, but don't see why christians do.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506908' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:34 PM']Excuse me, the people in prison are there because they are convicted of a crime, and have the right to be protected from other prisoners just like the guards are. The prisons are much more dangerous without the death penalty.
And yes instead of building more expensive prisons to keep convicted murders on death row for the rest of their lives, why don't we carry out the sentences they were given and execute them? Sorry if that actually seems too logical to everyone. Again I can see why atheists object, but don't see why christians do.[/quote]There are mistakes in our legal system. Accidents do happen. Also, as I said in the other thread which appears to have been abandoned, to kill someone who is in a state of mortal sin is to seal his or her fate. Although that person has freely chosen his/her fate, I think that Christian charity demands to afford a soul every reasonable chance to repent. Many manuals of moral theology consistently state that material goods ought to be sacrificed for a spiritual good.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506920' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:39 PM']There are mistakes in our legal system. Accidents do happen. Also, as I said in the other thread which appears to have been abandoned, to kill someone who is in a state of mortal sin is to seal his or her fate. Although that person has freely chosen his/her fate, I think that Christian charity demands to afford a soul every reasonable chance to repent. Many manuals of moral theology consistently state that material goods ought to be sacrificed for a spiritual good.[/quote]
Don't you think telling someone they are gonna die on a certain date is not an incentive to repent???? If thats not incentive, I don't know what is!

[rkwright]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506877' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:26 PM']First of all, a person legally put to death by the state isn't murdered, they are exucuted. There is a big difference. They have been duly tried and convicted of a capital crime.
They are not innocent.[/quote]

Murder is the intentional taking of life. Thats what the death penalty is. It is considered justifiable homicide, yet it is a homicide none the less.

[rkwright]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506938' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:48 PM']Don't you think telling someone they are gonna die on a certain date is not an incentive to repent???? If thats not incentive, I don't know what is![/quote]

Ends don't justify the means. Threatening to kill someone in order to save their soul is not conversion.

[dairygirl4u2c]

so it's like in one ear goes the catechism and pope "only in the msot extreme situation, which hardly do not ever exist" and then out the mouth goes "kill em all", without an explanation of how they're objecting.
it's an interesting phenomeonon

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506938' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:48 PM']Don't you think telling someone they are gonna die on a certain date is not an incentive to repent???? If thats not incentive, I don't know what is![/quote]
Not necessarily. As a student, I know that I am not always mindful of due dates. Also, a lot can happen in any duration of time. Just as slow drops of water will eventually erode a rock, God's grace may eventually soften the hardest of hearts. I, for one, would not be one willing to end another life and deprive that person of God's actual or sanctifying grace that may have been dispensed in the future.

[kujo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506908' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:34 PM']Excuse me, the people in prison are there because they are convicted of a crime, and have the right to be protected from other prisoners just like the guards are. The prisons are much more dangerous without the death penalty.
And yes instead of building more expensive prisons to keep convicted murders on death row for the rest of their lives, why don't we carry out the sentences they were given and execute them? Sorry if that actually seems too logical to everyone. Again I can see why atheists object, but don't see why christians do.[/quote]

I agree. Prisoners should be protected, but you're saying the easiest way to do that is to just kill all of the convicted murders. How can you not see how ludicrous that is? Why not spend the ample money drained in our appeals system to do what I said: hire more guards, pay them more money, install more security measures, and offer more rehabilitative resources?

And I hear your pleas about the over-crowded prisons. And, while I accept that this will certainly be an unpopular view here, perhaps we should decriminalize a few things like marijuana and get the people who are in prison for that charge out of there.

Where there's a will, there's a way. I think we should try to make it so that the death penalty isn't as necessary. These things can accomplish this.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i know there's been cases where the lawyer didn't file the appeal soon enough etc. i do know the supreme court said go ahead and kill em, but that doesn't seem right bc of a technicality. i remember debating that here with some people, never really getting much of a satisfactory response other than "they had the trial" and "they were murderers" which are not necessarily either true andor adquate.

my point being, appeals should be given, regardless of techincalities, and all reasonable doubt taken away.

plus, a good catholic is bound to say only when it's warranted as last resort, which hardly exists. even if catholics here won't say it, it's bound to be said by good ones as it's a teaching of the church (even if it's only ordinary magisterial teaching and not yet and perhaps never will be a truly final teaching).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1506941' date='Apr 22 2008, 04:50 PM']Murder is the intentional taking of life.[/quote]
Murder is the willful killing of an [i]innocent[/i] human being.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506886' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:29 PM']Not all who are convicted are truly guilty.[/quote]

that fact does not make the death penalty wrong.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506938' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:48 PM']Don't you think telling someone they are gonna die on a certain date is not an incentive to repent???? If thats not incentive, I don't know what is![/quote]

seriously. That way they can repent and even go to confession like right before their execution so they can be assured of salvation, whereas if they were do die during a life sentence who knows if they would have the incentive to repent, believing they have time, when they might not.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1506946' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:53 PM']so it's like in one ear goes the catechism and pope "only in the msot extreme situation, which hardly do not ever exist" and then out the mouth goes "kill em all", without an explanation of how they're objecting.
it's an interesting phenomeonon[/quote]

I gave a reference as to why I believe the death penalty is justified. But apparently it can be ignored because it wasn't declared infallible.

"Let every soul be subject to higher powers. For there is no power but from God: and those that are ordained of God. Therefore, he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation. For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to thee, for good. [b]But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil[/b]" (Romans 13:1-4)

St. Augustine - City of God:

"The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" to wage war at God's bidding, or for the representatives of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice. (qtd. in Cardinal Avery Dulles, "Catholicism and Capital Punishment," First Things, April 2001)


Pope Innocent III - against the Waldensians: "Concerning secular power we declare that without mortal sin it is possible to exercise a judgment of blood as long as one proceeds to bring punishment not in hatred but in judgment, not incautiously but advisedly" (Denzinger 425).


Catechism of the Council of Trent:

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, [b]far from involving the crime of murder[/b], [u]is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment[/u] which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.


Fr. Heribert Jone - Moral Theology p. 140:

"214. Article II
Killing the Criminal

1. A criminal may be executed if juridical proof has established the moral certainty that he has committed a grave crime for which the state, in the interest of the common welfare, inflicts capital punishment, and if someone has been authorized by the state to execute the sentence . . . A criminal must be given an opportunity to receive the Sacraments before his execution. If he refuses to receive them, the sentence may nevertheless be carried out."


The Church has taken protection of the people into consideration also as an end of capital punishment. But that is not its ONLY purpose. It is a lawful PUNISHMENT.

Edited April 23, 2008 by goldenchild17

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506950' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:55 PM']Not necessarily. As a student, I know that I am not always mindful of due dates. Also, a lot can happen in any duration of time. Just as slow drops of water will eventually erode a rock, God's grace may eventually soften the hardest of hearts. I, for one, would not be one willing to end another life and deprive that person of God's actual or sanctifying grace that may have been dispensed in the future.[/quote]

". . . A criminal must be given an opportunity to receive the Sacraments before his execution. If he refuses to receive them, the sentence may nevertheless be carried out." Fr. Jone, Moral Theology

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='kujo' post='1507088' date='Apr 22 2008, 08:38 PM']I agree. Prisoners should be protected, but you're saying the easiest way to do that is to just kill all of the convicted murders. How can you not see how ludicrous that is? Why not spend the ample money drained in our appeals system to do what I said: hire more guards, pay them more money, install more security measures, and offer more rehabilitative resources?[/quote]
They still need to pay for the their crime and the Church has said that the death penalty is a viable punishment. Should it be used in all such cases? No, I think some cases can be made to let people go, I don't know for sure. But that doesn't mean the death penalty is not a viable option for a punishment. Why are we looking at it solely as a deterrent and as a way to protect innocent people? God has appointed lawful authorities to carry out earthly punishments (goodness knows He did so in the Old Testament for sure). This has been carried over to the New Covenant. It is a punishment not only a deterrent, and for this reason can never become outdated.
[quote]And I hear your pleas about the over-crowded prisons. And, while I accept that this will certainly be an unpopular view here, perhaps we should decriminalize a few things like marijuana and get the people who are in prison for that charge out of there.[/quote]

This I definitely agree with.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1507123' date='Apr 22 2008, 09:47 PM']plus, a good catholic is bound to say only when it's warranted as last resort, which hardly exists. even if catholics here won't say it, it's bound to be said by good ones as it's a teaching of the church (even if it's only ordinary magisterial teaching and not yet and perhaps never will be a truly final teaching).[/quote]

This has not been proven. Plenty of other sources say otherwise. The CCC does say so, but at the very least one can only say that its debatable, otherwise the CCC would contradict other sources of equal weight (i.e. previous catechisms) and that isn't able to happen.

Edited April 23, 2008 by goldenchild17

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1507261' date='Apr 23 2008, 01:28 AM']Murder is the willful killing of an [i]innocent[/i] human being.[/quote]

Not sure where you got this definition? No criminal statue in the United States and the United Kingdom, nor does the common law, include 'innocent' in their definition. The CCC doesn't include 'innocent' in its definition either.

This fits with out common sense. We call jail-yard killings murder. If a robbery goes bad and one bad guy shoots another, we still call it murder. If someone gets shot in a drug deal, its still murder.