Do You Agree With Income Tax

[Deb]

Shouldn't the fix then be to start taxing all corporations at a higher rate and leaving us alone? Corporations get tax break after tax break and some years, multi-billion dollar businesses pay less actual tax than I do. Something has always been wrong about that.
I only took one economic class in college so the basics only stayed in my mind for about a week after it ended. I can handle my own money (mostly) but, that is about it for me.

[CatherineM]

In the movie Dave, he brought in his friend the accountant to basically go over the books for the whole government. That would be the way to do it. One person, without an ax to grind, and no hidden agenda, to just go through the budget and pull out all the stuff that we don't need.

[Laudate_Dominum]

This isn't about taxes per se but it is a good and interesting documentary that is at least somewhat related to this thread.

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4840432044369494646&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...94646&hl=en[/url]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i mean... income tax i can see shouldn't be used a lot... but it should be used, on everyone, to some degree.

we all benefit from the military. you can't find a tax on that taht that's anaologous to how we get money from gas for roads, at least tahti can think of .

and same goes for paying your representatives etc.

maybe i'm not being creative enough, but it seems some income tax should be inherent to everyone.
i mean... i like the sales tax etc or different ideas, becasue it allows one person to be able to be a hermit if they want. but even a hermit should have to pay something for living here, and not some whacky country elsewhere, giving what we do for them.

i guess i do adhere to it... there's two things you can't avoid in life... death and taxes. unless you go to a coutnry where they don't have it, or outter space i suppose.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Deb' post='1512460' date='Apr 28 2008, 09:50 AM']It was kind of interesting. Especially if it was true that if they dumped the income tax, we would still have as much money going into the country as we did seven or eight years ago. Does that just apply to Federal Government?
Where do we start with cuts? 42 cents of every dollar goes to defense. Is that needed or just needed to be managed better?[/quote]
I can't speak for Ron Paul, but it has been said that America's foreign policy is the cause of a great many financial burdens and that changes in this policy could reduce expenses in a degree that would bring the U.S. back to 2002 levels. There are other similar changes/reforms that have been proposed as means of greatly reducing spending but it would require significant policy changes. If our spending was reduced to 2002 levels the income tax could be completely abolished and the government would still have more than enough revenue to play with. That's the kind of thing I've heard anyway.
There is also a "fair tax" camp but I don't really know enough to speak on that but I'm sure an internet search would turn up some websites.

[traichuoi]

I saw a guy's bumper sticker read, "If God is okay with 10% then the IRS should be as well!" hahaha I loved that. I just think it makes you a target for an audit though. hmpf.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1513663' date='Apr 28 2008, 11:12 PM']i mean... income tax i can see shouldn't be used a lot... but it should be used, on everyone, to some degree.

we all benefit from the military. you can't find a tax on that taht that's anaologous to how we get money from gas for roads, at least tahti can think of .

and same goes for paying your representatives etc.

maybe i'm not being creative enough, but it seems some income tax should be inherent to everyone.
i mean... i like the sales tax etc or different ideas, becasue it allows one person to be able to be a hermit if they want. but even a hermit should have to pay something for living here, and not some whacky country elsewhere, giving what we do for them.

i guess i do adhere to it... there's two things you can't avoid in life... death and taxes. unless you go to a coutnry where they don't have it, or outter space i suppose.[/quote]
About half a trillion dollars of the federal budget (including income tax revenues among a great many other things) will be spent on national debt interest.

According to the U.S. Treasury website the national debt as of four days ago (04/25/2008) was $9,334,965,822,890.37 USD. Just a freaky tidbit of info..

Btw, I'm not saying that people shouldn't pay their taxes but I don't see how this statement: "but it should be used, on everyone, to some degree" is necessarily true.

Even if you believe that income tax is some kind of basic element of social justice (which is utterly preposterous to my mind) I hope you would admit that the specifics of the tax system are up for debate. I tend to believe that an individual's labor is their private property and that the taxation of private labor is an abuse of government. At the very least it is short of the ideal for a free and humanistic society.

Anyway, here are a few countries that defy your income tax imperative.

Andorra: 0%
The Bahamas: 0%
Bermuda: 0%
Dubai (UAE): 0%
Monaco: 0%
Nauru: no taxes period.
New Zealand: no income tax for four year for new residents.
Norfolk Island: 0%
United Arab Emirates: no corporate or individual income tax, no value added tax, no goods and services tax and no sales tax.

And here are a few countries with pretty low income tax rates.

Liechtenstein: 1.2%
Saudi Arabia: 2.5%
Bulgaria: 10%
Syria: 5-15%
Czech Republic: 15%
Georgia: 12%
Hong Kong: 0-15%
Montenegro: 15%
Romania: 16%
Russia: 13%


[b]Unites States[/b]: up to 52.95%. - Up to 35% federal income tax (top bracket was 38.6% in 2002 and 39.6% in 2000), plus up to 10.3% state income tax and up to 7.65% federal payroll tax. For my relatively average income bracket I will pay 28% in federal income tax plus the state income tax and a local income tax. I really think that the system of banking, usury and taxes is a ghastly and archaic system of exploitation that fosters madness and domineering bureaucracy (the IRS is a good example), among other things. There are much cooler possibilities, at least on a theoretical level.

[goldenchild17]

those are some crazy numbers. I should move .

[Cure of Ars]

-We should not tax behaviors we want. We want people to work and make money so it is not a good idea to tax income. The good thing about income tax is that it does not tax the very poor because they do not have income.

-Some ideas would be to switch the income tax to a carbon tax or consumption tax or no tax. The down side to the carbon and consumption tax is that it would hit the poor harder than the rich. The down side to no tax is that the government is already in debt.

-The government is using inflation to manage its debit. This is why the value of the dollar is going down and the price of everything is going up. The government and the rich benefit most from this because they get to use the money first before the value of the money is affected.

-Inflation is a hidden tax that affects the poor more than the rich since the rich have their wealth in assets that keep its value through inflation. Inflation can help the poor if they are in debt but because of how the system works, once the poor get behind, they are not going to be able to get out of debt (because the interest rates rise so much) so this does not help them much. In the long run inflation hurts the poor because their wages don’t have the same purchasing power.

-High inflation makes saving less attractive. If inflation is 10% and you are getting 3% on your money in the bank you just lost 7% of the value of your money. This encourages speculative investment which can be good (because is drives innovation) but it also leads to bubbles which destabilize the economy.

-It is in the bank’s interest for the government to be in debit because the government pays interest. The banks and credit card companies hold more power in influencing the government than the people. The Federal Reserve is privately owned and has the power to make the money and because of this it has a lot of control on inflation. We don’t know who the owners are of the Federal Reserve. They got ride of the statistic (M3) that tells us how much money the Fed is printing.

Questions:

Are the above statements true?

Why would the Federal Reserve want inflation if it is going to lower their return from the interest that it is charging for borrowing money to the US government?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1513663' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:12 AM']i mean... income tax i can see shouldn't be used a lot... but it should be used, on everyone, to some degree.

we all benefit from the military. you can't find a tax on that taht that's anaologous to how we get money from gas for roads, at least tahti can think of .

and same goes for paying your representatives etc.

maybe i'm not being creative enough, but it seems some income tax should be inherent to everyone.
i mean... i like the sales tax etc or different ideas, becasue it allows one person to be able to be a hermit if they want. but even a hermit should have to pay something for living here, and not some whacky country elsewhere, giving what we do for them.

i guess i do adhere to it... there's two things you can't avoid in life... death and taxes. unless you go to a coutnry where they don't have it, or outter space i suppose.[/quote]
let the corporations pay for the safety of their potential customer pool through corporate taxes and tariffs and stuff. that's what makes sense. the federal government has no business dealing with individuals in this way, it's called bullying and it's against the principal of subsidarity.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

One of the biggest reasons I don't like federal reserve system and the IRS or equivelent agencies in the world is who actually came up with the idea.

Members of the Rothschild family showed up to the white house during a critical time during the American Civil War. They told Abraham Lincoln they would help finance his war by creating something like the Federal Reserve system in America. Good old Honest Abe told them to get out of his office and never come back again, because the next time they offered that he would have them shot on sight. Abraham Lincoln was assassinated.

After the Federal Reserve happened, and the Rothschild's did have the ability to manipulate American Politics, one of the ways they did so was through the CIA. That is why there are so many cases of the CIA being sued for really illegal practices they did on the America Public. But during the bay of pigs, John Fitzgerald Kennedy realized the evil that the CIA was capable of, because he realized they were trying to start WW3. He set in motion something to wipe the CIA off the map of America. He was assassinated in Houston Texas.

Ronald Reagan decided to study where all the money from Income Tax goes, and found out almost every single cent goes to paying off the interest of the loans from the Federal Reserve, the brain child of the Rothschild family. Ronald Reagan was the target of an assassination attempt.

Hmmm, looking at the people who have opposed the Rothschilds in the past, or did something that made them angry, something unfortunate happened to each in American History, two are dead, on one was 'warned'.

Faith and reasoning suggests the Rothschilds are evil, and the fact we are 'enjoying' their economic system makes me cringe. The Rothschilds are pieces of filth who really need to repent and turn away from their evil ways and turn towards God.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' post='1513827' date='Apr 29 2008, 08:46 AM']-The government is using inflation to manage its debit. This is why the value of the dollar is going down and the price of everything is going up. The government and the rich benefit most from this because they get to use the money first before the value of the money is affected.

-Inflation is a hidden tax that affects the poor more than the rich since the rich have their wealth in assets that keep its value through inflation. Inflation can help the poor if they are in debt but because of how the system works, once the poor get behind, they are not going to be able to get out of debt (because the interest rates rise so much) so this does not help them much. In the long run inflation hurts the poor because their wages don’t have the same purchasing power.

-High inflation makes saving less attractive. If inflation is 10% and you are getting 3% on your money in the bank you just lost 7% of the value of your money. This encourages speculative investment which can be good (because is drives innovation) but it also leads to bubbles which destabilize the economy.[/quote]
Inflation is particular bad for the elderly or retired people in general.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'm going to buy a plot of land somewhere, pay minimal property tax, and live off the land. This is outrageous.

[StColette]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1513927' date='Apr 29 2008, 11:46 AM']I'm going to buy a plot of land somewhere, pay minimal property tax, and live off the land. This is outrageous.[/quote]

I know what all the different soil nutrient deficiencies look like and how to fix them! Aren't you glad you married me! I can also milk cows! Let's go live in the country!

[Aloysius]

... my crazy plans sound better and better all the time, huh?

oh, and in even more ridiculosity, there is actually a way that they make farmers pay income tax based upon how much they grow. you might be able to swing in under some limit so long as you were just growing for yourself and not selling any.

[dairygirl4u2c]

as i mentioned earlier... a million dollars a minute increase in the debt, and a fifth of what everyone owes going to the debt, to nothing,.... is not wise or fair.

but... with taht said... i haven't really seen any substantial reasoning that says income tax shold be compltely done away with.

al said... let the corporations pay to keep thir customers safe. first, i don't know if this is saying, we should voluntarily pay taxes? cause if that's a case, it's definitely a game of chicken, which might work, but i don't know. also it's putting a presures on the wealthy, cause the common man will find a way to justify his idea that he needn't contribute to society, when that wouldn't be fair that the rich are paying to protect others who don't pay.
second, if he's saying the corporations should be taxed, and not the people.... how is that fair? i'm not one to say things like that, given that i'm a bit of a fighter for the common man, but i don't see how they should be targetd.

laud said he thought it was wrong to tax labor, but didn't really say why, and pointed to some countries that don't have the income tax without saying why they don't.

i mean.. it doesn't have to be an income tax per se,,, but there has to be a tax, where everyone is taxed somewhat. if that means an income tax, so be it. do people really think those hermits can live wihtout paying for the military, or their representatives or other things that taxes pay for that they benefit from? how is that fair?

Edited April 29, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

so simply being alive and being human and living in the United States endebts you to the government? I believe every human has the right to have the capacity to live like a hermit... there are different roles for different people in society and some peoples roles will involve raising money for the common defense through the things they sell and the business they do... but only transactions that occur in the public domain are taxable by the public government in my opinion; and an individual income does not qualify as that in my estimation. sales do, and corporate income does because it is by its very nature already out in the society; but money given to an individual ought to be freely received by that individual because it is given to him to become his private property.

all personal income is private property, and private property is not taxable in my opinion.

a tax on a transaction is acceptable; except for transactions on basic necessities such as food. sales taxes should be limited to non-luxury items if they are used at all.

tariffs are the principal legitimate way for the government to receive its revenue. it's on a purely public domain occurrence and does not punish productivity but ensures that industries pay for the right to use the public to conduct business. industries are who owe the government some money for the right to conduct business safely within its borders, not average individuals.

I personally do not feel morally endebted to the government of the United States of America for one dime. The only thing I owe the government is being a good productive citizen who obeys the laws and contributes to the wellbeing of society. They, in turn, owe me safety if I live up to that end of the bargain. They can afford that safety because as the productivity of the country runs smoothly, money is generated by the industries which build the overall wealth and esteem of the nation.

[kujo]

[quote name='Deb' post='1512471' date='Apr 28 2008, 12:01 PM']Shouldn't the fix then be to start taxing all corporations at a higher rate and leaving us alone? Corporations get tax break after tax break and some years, multi-billion dollar businesses pay less actual tax than I do. Something has always been wrong about that.[/quote]

If you tax corporations, the price of the goods they supply will go up to pay for the taxes that they have to pay.

Your idea is socialist and borderline communist.

We should get rid of the IRS, institute the Fairtax and be done with it.

[Aloysius]

think of it this way: a big bully on the playground does not have the moral right to go around to each individual on the playground and make them pay him money to keep them safe from the other bullies... but say that bully used his protection powers to ensure the the kids on the playground had the opportunity to voluntarily engage in a great game safe from all the other bullies, and that game generated money/profit for them... then the bully could share in the profit that he helped to cause in order to finance his continuing protection of them.

ok, so the analogy fell apart halfway through, the point is still there...

[Aloysius]

[quote name='kujo' post='1514005' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:02 PM']If you tax corporations, the price of the goods they supply will go up to pay for the taxes that they have to pay.

Your idea is socialist and borderline communist.

We should get rid of the IRS, institute the Fairtax and be done with it.[/quote]
I'm all for not taxing corporations either. It is tariffs which have traditionally been the major funder of the federal government and those are what I'm principally talking about when I say that industry should generate the funds that the federal government collects

Fairtax as in flat rate income tax? no deal. no dice. big deal, we get less paperwork... woopididooda.
Fairtax as in flat nation wide sales tax? slightly better than the better system and more in line with what I'm saying, especially if it excludes the sale of food and houses/land. overall I'd like to see enough fiscal responsibility that the federal government could operate only from the tariffs it collects... government spending would not go down with a national sales tax replacing the IRS, the sales tax would just keep increasing