Madame Vengier Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1514054' date='Apr 29 2008, 12:59 PM']Madame, you'd probably be interested in then Cardinal Ratzinger's book,[/quote] Unlike you, I don't have to sit around reading mounds and mounds of theological treatises in order to understand my Faith. I read a fair amount and then I use this thing called "my brain". Apparently, all your reading does is confuse you to the point that you spout incorrect and erroneous theology at last 50% of the time.
Madame Vengier Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='zwergel88' post='1514021' date='Apr 29 2008, 12:20 PM']I agree that it is ridiculous to not acknowledge the fact that Muslims. Christians, and Jews worship the same God. This is pretty self-evident. But in the sense, that there is only one God, doesn't everyone in the world pray to the same God? It's not as if their are different gods out their that one may pray to.[/quote] Muslims, no. Jews and Christians, YES. This is basic salvation history 101. You all should know it. If you don't, get educated. Whatever you have to do, stop spouting erroneous theology.
StColette Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514090' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:32 PM']Unlike you, I don't have to sit around reading mounds and mounds of theological treatises in order to understand my Faith. I read a fair amount and then I use this thing called "my brain". Apparently, all your reading does is confuse you to the point that you spout incorrect and erroneous theology at last 50% of the time.[/quote] Please watch your charity level.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514090' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:32 PM']Unlike you, I don't have to sit around reading mounds and mounds of theological treatises in order to understand my Faith. I read a fair amount and then I use this thing called "my brain". Apparently, all your reading does is confuse you to the point that you spout incorrect and erroneous theology at last 50% of the time.[/quote] Hi. Please be polite. This was entirely unnecessary. I know Al pretty well, and I assure you he wasn't just trying to show off the "mounds and mounds of theological treatises" he's read, he just thought you might find the book interesting. God bless, Raphael
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514094' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:35 PM']Muslims, no. Jews and Christians, YES. This is basic salvation history 101. You all should know it. If you don't, get educated. Whatever you have to do, stop spouting erroneous theology.[/quote] Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all do worship the same God, since they all worship "the God of Abraham." The distinction is in their understanding of that God. The Christian understanding is as complete as God has revealed Himself, the Jewish understanding is incomplete, and the Muslim understanding is very heavily skewed (based mostly, in my opinion, on what they could see of God without the help of Revelation).
zwergel88 Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514094' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:35 PM']Muslims, no. Jews and Christians, YES. This is basic salvation history 101. You all should know it. If you don't, get educated. Whatever you have to do, stop spouting erroneous theology.[/quote] This is not erroneous. What is erroneous is to throw out everyone else's points without offering any evidence to the contrary. Muslims do believe in the same God in so far as they, along with Christians and Jews, worship the God of Abrahman, Issac, and Jacob. Furthermore, these three religions center around many of the same events. They interpret and apply them differently, but the basis of these three is quite similar.
Rosemary's Goddaughter Posted April 29, 2008 Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1514045' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:50 PM']I'd like to see you find another phatmasser who agrees with your statement that I am always preaching about how everyone else is wrong... I have received not just a few PMs of praise for how fairly I tend to treat most topics (I don't let it get my head big haha)... of course, this particular topic my position is not the most popular one around these parts, but I believe I've earned the respect of most people who disagree with my position who have taken the time to discuss these things with me. I always give every side a fair go... sorry if my posts are too long for you, sometimes they spiral out of control.[/quote] Here, have another bit 'o praise from another random PMer. Long posts are awesome. Peace out.
mortify Posted April 29, 2008 Author Posted April 29, 2008 Even if their prayers are directed to God, it's hard to say what value they have if they don't go through the Son, especially if they are aware of the Christian religion. Secondly, and this may be a bit controversial, but it's possible members of false religions are worshiping demons. In Justin Martyr's dialouge with a pagan emperor, he said the deities worshiped by pagans are nothing more than fallen spirits. I don't know much about other religions other than Islam, and considering some of the preternatural events (supposedly) surrounding Muhammad, a demonic element may not be so unlikely.
zwergel88 Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 How could people with good intentions who only want to worship God and live a good live be directed their prayers in an evil direction?
Socrates Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1514101' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:39 PM']Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all do worship the same God, since they all worship "the God of Abraham." The distinction is in their understanding of that God. The Christian understanding is as complete as God has revealed Himself, the Jewish understanding is incomplete, and the Muslim understanding is very heavily skewed (based mostly, in my opinion, on what they could see of God without the help of Revelation).[/quote] The Muslim "understanding" is based on the so-called "revelations" to Mohamed, which he claimed he was forced to give by a supernatural visitor, later identified as the Angel Gabriel. It seems Mohamed was likely either insane or demonically oppressed. Islam is not some benign religion based on natural reason or whatever, but has from its founding principles a blatant rejection of Christ as our Lord and Savior, and of key Christian dogmas. Islam claims Mohamed to be the greatest prophet, and the fulfillment of Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Islam claims Christians and Jews to be guilty of rejecting their own Scriptures, and of deliberately changing them to remove those parts which prophecy Mohamed as the Great Prophet. Islam claims Christ was not the Son of God, but only a prophet, who prophesied Mohamed's coming, and that He was never crucified. Islam was a religion set up in opposition to the Christian Faith from the start, blatantly denies fundamental Christian dogma, and is in no way compatible with the Christian Faith.
Madame Vengier Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1514096' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:36 PM']Please watch your charity level.[/quote] And the members of this forum should watch their theology. I'm sorry you're more concerned with "charity" than you are with correct theology.
Madame Vengier Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1514101' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:39 PM']Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all do worship the same God, since they all worship "the God of Abraham."[/quote] So you admit that your buddy Al was wrong when he said Jews and Christians don't worship the same God. He was never going to admit he was wrong, so thanks for saying it for him. It is funny that you didn't correct him though. You tried to correct me instead.
Madame Vengier Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1514452' date='Apr 29 2008, 06:31 PM']and considering some of the preternatural events (supposedly) surrounding Muhammad, a demonic element may not be so unlikely.[/quote] I certainly believe this to be true. A careful analysis would prove to a lot of other people that it's likely true, too. Can't explain that to some people, though, who have their minds made up that Islam is a lovely and peaceful religion--they don't want to be inconvenienced by the facts.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514923' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:23 AM']So you admit that your buddy Al was wrong when he said Jews and Christians don't worship the same God. He was never going to admit he was wrong, so thanks for saying it for him. It is funny that you didn't correct him though. You tried to correct me instead.[/quote] First, I didn't "try" to correct you, I did correct you. Second, you're picking on Al over semantics. As I read it, Al was not saying that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God, but that they don't believe in the same God, in the sense that their view of God is skewed. You see, there is one God, we'll call Him "The Trinity" and Christians worship Him properly because we know Him properly. However, that same God is known to Muslims as "Allah" and to Jews as "YHWH." Now, the idea Muslims hold in their beliefs about "Allah" give him attributes that do not entirely match up with the beliefs Christians have. Therefore, one could say that why they are directing their worship toward the same God, they do not have the same God, so far as their perception of God is different. Personally, I don't think it's the best way to say it, but his point was clearly not that the God known as "Allah" or "YHWH" to Muslims and Jews was intrinsically different from the God known as "The Trinity;" his point was that the perception of them is different, and thus, in their understanding (and not unreasonably so, though we know it not to be the case) they worship different gods. I think Al was making a judgment about their different perceptions, or perceptions of different gods, even though the actual God they are looking at is "The Trinity." So really, this is just an argument of semantics, and you need to stop being rude to Al. God bless, Micah
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514921' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:20 AM']And the members of this forum should watch their theology. I'm sorry you're more concerned with "charity" than you are with correct theology.[/quote] Excuse me. I know that you're new here, but before you insult my wife again, you might care to know that she and I both have degrees in theology from a very orthodox university. An important part of theology is having charity with those you are debating. If you feel the need to insult others in order to make your point, then you only prove that you don't know theology. My charity is far from perfect, but at least I know that those who truly practice theology allow it to infuse their actions and words with charity. A basic rule of moral theology is that the ends do not justify the means; in other words, you cannot be uncharitable in order to defend even the most important truths. If you truly desire to defend the truth, then your defense must be wedded to charity. Please read the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=71986&hl=Guidelines"]Phorum Guidelines[/url] before posting again. If you do not comply, your subsequent uncharitable posts will be edited and you will be warned.
StColette Posted April 30, 2008 Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514921' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:20 AM']And the members of this forum should watch their theology. I'm sorry you're more concerned with "charity" than you are with correct theology.[/quote] I'm not more concerned with charity than I am with correct theology. Considering I've dedicated my life to orthodox Theology, I would say that your statement is far from being true. Charity should always be a concern of ours rather it be in our actions or in our words. If I am not mistaken Pope Benedict XVI dedicated an entire encyclical to Charity (Love). Seems the Pope has concern for charity as well, not at the expense of Theology but in union with it. If I remember correctly the Holy Father quotes Augustine as saying, "If you see charity, you see the Trinity." This is what we should strive for every time we discuss Theology. We should do so in a way that shows them the truth. Good luck showing someone the truth of the Catholic faith by disrespecting them. We should not compromise the truth by any means, but we should share the Church's teachings in a way that does not degrade nor demean the one we are speaking with. In the words of St. Francis "Preach the gospel. And if necessary use words." God Bless and Mary Protect, Jennie
mortify Posted May 1, 2008 Author Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='zwergel88' post='1514619' date='Apr 29 2008, 08:54 PM']How could people with good intentions who only want to worship God and live a good live be directed their prayers in an evil direction?[/quote] Well, for one thing intentions are not enough, it's vital to accept truth and worship correctly. It's hard on our modern ears, but the Church is the sole and unique ark of salvation. She possesses the fullness of truth and the only form of worship pleasing to God. Even Christianities which contain elements of the Church, such as the bible for example, are not sufficient in themselves to bring people to salvation. There may be an exception for those who are sincerely ignorant, though this does not mean every person who never heard the Gospel is automatically going to heaven. Such a person would have to believe in God, at least believe in a judgment, and live according to the natural law and do what's right via God's grace. Even though God's desire is for everyone to be saved, and He provides sufficient grace even for the innocent infidel, it appears that the majority of the human population will not make it to heaven and this is due to their own choices. A truly frightful thought, and I pray that I and all of you make it to heaven, and that God may guide all to Him, and that people may respond to His grace. Lord have mercy on me.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 1, 2008 Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1515626' date='Apr 30 2008, 11:19 PM']it appears that the majority of the human population will not make it to heaven and this is due to their own choices.[/quote] I was following you completely up to this point. While I agree that this is possible, I just don't think I'd feel that comfortable citing statistics on the damned...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2008 Posted May 1, 2008 Muslims do not give right worship ([i]orthodoxa[/i]) to the true God, nor can the god "revealed" in the Qur'an be identified with the triune God revealed through the mystery of the incarnation. Islam is a false religion.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 1, 2008 Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1515649' date='May 1 2008, 12:06 AM']Muslims do not give right worship ([i]orthodoxa[/i]) to the true God, nor can the god "revealed" in the Qur'an be identified with the triune God revealed through the mystery of the incarnation. Islam is a false religion.[/quote] Ultimately, it comes down to a lot of semantics: [i]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." -CCC 841[/i]
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