A Couple Of Questions

[sdenko]

Hi, I've got some questions that I'm hoping someone can provide answers to..

Since I'm home from university, I've decided that I still want to go to Mass. I went to one parish near my university, so when I came home, I knew I'd have to go to an entirely new parish. Kind of strange since I was going alone to a new church and all that. I managed to stumble through the liturgy.

But some questions came up...

First, the Mass that I went to today only had a silent prayer at the beginning and no joint confession "I confess to Almighty God..." and there was no Kyrie. Would there be any different order of the Mass (e.g. things omitted or changed around or added) because today was commemorating Jesus' Ascension? I just found it strange because at the parish I had previously attended, each Mass began with the community confessing together (is this the Penetential rite?)

Second, after the Priest read the Gospel, he sat down and a lady from the congregation began to read a story ("a legend" she said) about Jesus' arrival in heaven. Anyway, this soon progressed into a discussion of the Archdiocese campaign for raising money for ministries. The Priest didn't give a homily essentially. Again, I've never been to a Mass on the Day of Ascension so I'm not sure if things are supposed to be different or not.

So those are my questions about the Mass that I noticed today.

The other two questions came up today when I was discussing some things with my family. They, like me, have grown up in the Baptist church their entire lives. Anyway, my mom asked me if Catholics believe it is necessary to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I said (and please note, I may entirely be wrong about this, but this is just the sense I get from my reading) that Catholics don't believe in salvation being a one time event (e.g. say the "Sinner's Prayer" and boom, you're in) but it is a life time process. Then it progressed into a discussion about works and salvation. My understanding is that the Sacraments play a role in Salvation. Is that correct, or am I entirely off my rocker on this.

The other thing is that my mom asked me where some of these Catholic doctrines come from in the Scripture. Since she holds to the Bible being the rule of faith, this seems natural. Is it safe to say that Catholics see Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures as being equally important rules of faith? Because if I point her to verses in the Bible that support Catholic doctrine, wouldn't that be basically saying that the Sacred Scripture is a rule of faith?

Finally, from my understanding, the Vatican II clarified that it is possible for Salvation to be attained outside of the Catholic Church. But if the Catholic Church is the One, True, Church, then how is it possible for salvation outside of the church?

Thanks for any direction anyone can give me!

Edited May 4, 2008 by sdenko

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='sdenko' post='1518454' date='May 4 2008, 04:49 PM']Hi, I've got some questions that I'm hoping someone can provide answers to..

Since I'm home from university, I've decided that I still want to go to Mass. I went to one parish near my university, so when I came home, I knew I'd have to go to an entirely new parish. Kind of strange since I was going alone to a new church and all that. I managed to stumble through the liturgy.

But some questions came up...

First, the Mass that I went to today only had a silent prayer at the beginning and no joint confession "I confess to Almighty God..." and there was no Kyrie. Would there be any different order of the Mass (e.g. things omitted or changed around or added) because today was commemorating Jesus' Ascension? I just found it strange because at the parish I had previously attended, each Mass began with the community confessing together (is this the Penetential rite?)

Second, after the Priest read the Gospel, he sat down and a lady from the congregation began to read a story ("a legend" she said) about Jesus' arrival in heaven. Anyway, this soon progressed into a discussion of the Archdiocese campaign for raising money for ministries. The Priest didn't give a homily essentially. Again, I've never been to a Mass on the Day of Ascension so I'm not sure if things are supposed to be different or not.

So those are my questions about the Mass that I noticed today.

The other two questions came up today when I was discussing some things with my family. They, like me, have grown up in the Baptist church their entire lives. Anyway, my mom asked me if Catholics believe it is necessary to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I said (and please note, I may entirely be wrong about this, but this is just the sense I get from my reading) that Catholics don't believe in salvation being a one time event (e.g. say the "Sinner's Prayer" and boom, you're in) but it is a life time process. Then it progressed into a discussion about works and salvation. My understanding is that the Sacraments play a role in Salvation. Is that correct, or am I entirely off my rocker on this.

The other thing is that my mom asked me where some of these Catholic doctrines come from in the Scripture. Since she holds to the Bible being the rule of faith, this seems natural. Is it safe to say that Catholics see Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures as being equally important rules of faith? Because if I point her to verses in the Bible that support Catholic doctrine, wouldn't that be basically saying that the Sacred Scripture is a rule of faith?

Finally, from my understanding, the Vatican II clarified that it is possible for Salvation to be attained outside of the Catholic Church. But if the Catholic Church is the One, True, Church, then how is it possible for salvation outside of the church?

Thanks for any direction anyone can give me![/quote]

I'm not going to answer all of your questions (so I invite someone who can to do so) because I am not a liturgist. However, from what I know of liturgy, it sounds like the Mass at the parish you went to is far from what the Church has asked the Mass to be. First off, only the ordained can give homilies. Second, while I don't know of anything forbidding capital campaign info during a homily, it's obviously not ideal, and I always feel embarassed for those who come to look into the Church from non-Catholic backgrounds (because going to a Catholic Church and only hearing about how the bishop needs more money just doesn't send the right message, does it?).

You explained well to your family about salvation being a life-long process. What I would have added to specify is that yes, Catholics believe you must have a personal relationship with Christ, but it is a life-long relationship that allows us to encounter Christ in our lives and go through constant conversion. The sacraments aid in this by helping to conform us to Christ through the working of grace (for instance, Baptism gives us grace, as well as the Holy Spirit, which conform us to Christ, the Eucharist gives us Christ Himself and, well, to use a secular analogy, "you are what you eat" , Reconciliation allows us to turn back toward God, and therefore be more like Christ). If you're interested in more reading, I covered this a bit in my thesis: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=73748&hl=thesis"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...8&hl=thesis[/url]

As for your question on Scripture, I think the Church document Dei Verbum will answer better than I could: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...-verbum_en.html[/url]

Finally, the Second Vatican Council did not say that anyone could be saved outside the Church. The whole issue is a bit complex, but it's basically that all people are saved [i]through[/i] the Church, though all may not have been [i]in[/i] the Church during their lives. For instance, the Catechism tells us that those who, through no fault of their own, do not know God, but follow the natural law written on their hearts and strive to know God as best they can, may be able to enter heaven through the mercy of God, who judges us according to what we've been given. That's one example that I think shows how it could work...essentially, our belief is that such people would have "Baptism of Desire," meaning that through their desire for truth and God, they would be given through a special exception the grace of Baptism at the moment of death (God is not bound by the sacraments; He may work the miracle of salvation outside of them). Anyway, that's one example...essentially, everyone in heaven is Christian because they all were saved through the Church, even though some came to the Church through Baptism of Desire at the moment of death, and so were not Christians in life.

I hope that helps.

God bless,

Raphael