Why Catholics Shouldn't Vote For Obama Or Clinton

[cmotherofpirl]

things I have been reading:
[url="http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-international-socialist-connections"]http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-inter...ist-connections[/url]

[url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1768917/posts"]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1768917/posts[/url]

[url="http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=295831088444972"]http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.a...295831088444972[/url]

[url="http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ckincaid/2008/ck_02151.shtml"]http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ckincaid/.../ck_02151.shtml[/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1535209' date='May 20 2008, 06:39 PM']more likely... meaning what I said was not wrong, as I did only claim it could lead to fascism:[/quote]
Meaning your statement really has nothing to back it up, and shows little historical understanding of fascism.
Fascism was never caused by the excessive influence of "big business," but rather by government (claiming to act in the interest of "the people") seeking control of all factors of society and business.

[quote]I was always taught that Nazism, or National Socialism, actually has very little to do with "true Socialism" as Pius XI might put it. If you could show me otherwise, I'd appreciate it. I never claimed Hitler was a fascist. I wouldn't exactly think of using him as an example of it either.[/quote]
I was mainly quibbling here to show your sloppy use of words. Many use "fascist" and "Nazi" interchangably, though "Fascism" properly refers to Mussolini's movement in Italy, similar to National Socialism in Germany.

National Socialism is a form of socialism, as is Communism (these being the more extreme and obviously evil forms of socialism). Whether or not one considers National Socialism "true socialism" is rather irrelevant here, as Pius XI explicitly condemned Italian Fascism [[i]Non Abiamo Bisogno[/i] (1931)], National Socialism [[i]Mit Brennender Sorge[/i] (1937)], and Communism [[i]Divini Redemptoris[/i] (1937)], as well as socialism in general, as we'll see in my next post.

None of these false statist ideologies are compatible with the Catholic Faith.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1535217' date='May 20 2008, 06:59 PM']I said this once before in another thread, and I guess I need to repeat it here.

I do not believe in unbridled full-fledged Socialism, as laid out in Communist Manifesto. I am rather attracted merely to the ideology that takes the market and the economy and looks more towards need than profit. I am attracted to the economic idea that capitalism can still exist in society, although it remains checked by policies such as the living wage, labor unions, and fair trade. I see it more as a democratic socialism, as I would never want the ideas expressed in Communist Manifesto to ever surpass the will of the people who make up the state.

I set this apart from the current Democratic party, as my leanings towards Socialism pertain mainly to the market, and not every liberal and left issue under the sun that the Dems seem to have taken upon themselves. I also believe that the Democrats don't truly wish to actually give the middle and lower classes more regulatory control of the market, as many of them used the contributions of
corporations and individuals who benefit from this market to get to the positions they hold. In this issue I see the Democrats and Republicans as being very similar. This is one of the reasons I have grown to absolutely abhor our dirty political process today, which we still like to call "democracy" seemingly just to make us feel better about the fact that the candidate we wanted in office just couldn't scrape together enough funds to make it far enough in the public eye (through our friends in the media industry) and so we learn to settle with the lousy candidates we end up with.[/quote]
Communism is only the most extreme form of socialism. However, Pope Pius XI condemned even "moderate" forms of socialism in his encyclical [i]QUADRAGESIMO ANNO[/i]:[quote]116. Yet let no one think that all the socialist groups or factions that are not communist have, without exception, recovered their senses to this extent either in fact or in name. For the most part they do not reject the class struggle or the abolition of ownership, but only in some degree modify them. Now if these false principles are modified and to some extent erased from the program, the question arises, or rather is raised without warrant by some, whether the principles of Christian truth cannot perhaps be also modified to some degree and be tempered so as to meet Socialism half-way and, as it were, by a middle course, come to agreement with it. There are some allured by the foolish hope that socialists in this way will be drawn to us. A vain hope! Those who want to be apostles among socialists ought to profess Christian truth whole and entire, openly and sincerely, and not connive at error in any way. If they truly wish to be heralds of the Gospel, let them above all strive to show to socialists that socialist claims, so far as they are just, are far more strongly supported by the principles of Christian faith and much more effectively promoted through the power of Christian charity.

117. But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: [b]Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.[/b][/quote]

Pius XI concludes:[quote]120. If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), [b]it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.[/b][/quote]

Edited May 21, 2008 by Socrates

[Didymus]

In 117. Why?

I see no answer given. A democratic socialism is not necessarily irreconcilable with the teachings of the Church.

I dont even know why you posted 116. I have never advocated.. nor will I ever think of advocating an alteration of Christian doctrine so as to bring Socialists more into the Church.

btw, although you seem to find it sufficient to merely quote an encyclical written over 75 years ago, it would help a lot more if you could find fault with what I am referring to. Most Democratic Socialist thinkers today are more critics on Socialism than anything else. I see Communism as a failed Socialism. It is part of the evidence that shows that the society that Marx and Engels laid out in Communist Manifesto is impossible and illogical to even attempt to carry out.

What I want you to do Socrates, is show me how [i]I[/i] am on the wrong path and straying from the fold by merely finding an attraction to the belief in a market that focuses more on need then on profit, to the belief that outsourcing and free trade should always be accompanied by a respect for fair wage negotiations and labor unions, and to the belief that even the poorest of Americans ought to have an actual say in our democratic republic, and not just rely on the false and empty promises of the politicians who only serve those who had the money and the power to put them in office, often times themselves.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1535563' date='May 20 2008, 11:12 PM']Meaning your statement really has nothing to back it up, and shows little historical understanding of fascism.
Fascism was never caused by the excessive influence of "big business," but rather by government (claiming to act in the interest of "the people") seeking control of all factors of society and business.
I was mainly quibbling here to show your sloppy use of words. Many use "fascist" and "Nazi" interchangably, though "Fascism" properly refers to Mussolini's movement in Italy, similar to National Socialism in Germany.[/quote]

but i am not one of the many you are referring to. why would you even bring this up? If business became so big and powerful that it was able to grab a hold of our leaders, then government would in fact have a sort of control of business. They would be excessively and unjustly intertwined.

I never used fascism and nazism interchangeably, so stop bringing up irrelevant facts to make yourself look better in this argument.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1535563' date='May 20 2008, 11:12 PM']National Socialism is a form of socialism, as is Communism (these being the more extreme and obviously evil forms of socialism). Whether or not one considers National Socialism "true socialism" is rather irrelevant here, as Pius XI explicitly condemned Italian Fascism [[i]Non Abiamo Bisogno[/i] (1931)], National Socialism [[i]Mit Brennender Sorge[/i] (1937)], and Communism [[i]Divini Redemptoris[/i] (1937)], as well as socialism in general, as we'll see in my next post.

None of these false statist ideologies are compatible with the Catholic Faith.[/quote]

tell me WHY... can you even distinguish between the National Socialism of the Nazis, the failed Socialism of the USSR and the form of Socialism proposed by critics such as Herbert Marcuse.

Just because Pius XI condemned what was before him in the 1930's or whenever it was doesn't mean there aren't better, more democratic forms of the goodness one can draw from democracy and socialism.

[Didymus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1535519' date='May 20 2008, 10:48 PM']things I have been reading:
[url="http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-international-socialist-connections"]http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-inter...ist-connections[/url]

[url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1768917/posts"]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1768917/posts[/url]

[url="http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=295831088444972"]http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.a...295831088444972[/url]

[url="http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ckincaid/2008/ck_02151.shtml"]http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/ckincaid/.../ck_02151.shtml[/url][/quote]

thanks for postin this cmom! I looked through a bit of it just now, and I look forward to checkin it all out.

[KnightofChrist]

"...the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property. A person who is deprived of something he can call "his own", and of the possibility of earning a living through his own initiative, comes to depend on the social machine and on those who control it. This makes it much more difficult for him to recognize his dignity as a person, and hinders progress towards the building up of an authentic human community."
CENTESIMUS ANNUS, 13, Encyclical of Pope John Paul II, May 1, 1991

"...Socialism...cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth."
QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

"...no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism."
MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

"Socialists...debase the natural union of man and woman...the [family] bond they...deliver up to lust. Lured...by the greed of present goods...they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift."
QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
On Socialism, December 28, 1878

[Didymus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1536323' date='May 21 2008, 02:54 PM']"...the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property. A person who is deprived of something he can call "his own", and of the possibility of earning a living through his own initiative, comes to depend on the social machine and on those who control it. This makes it much more difficult for him to recognize his dignity as a person, and hinders progress towards the building up of an authentic human community."
CENTESIMUS ANNUS, 13, Encyclical of Pope John Paul II, May 1, 1991

"...Socialism...cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth."
QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

"...no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism."
MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

"Socialists...debase the natural union of man and woman...the [family] bond they...deliver up to lust. Lured...by the greed of present goods...they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift."
QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
On Socialism, December 28, 1878[/quote]

First of all, never have I ascribed to a prohibiting of Private Property and ownership. This is an inherent right to the dignity of all men and women.

"Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil."

Can someone please explain to me how this quote from JPII can be used against the reasons I support the areas of Socialism i find attractive?

and with regards to the John XXIII quote, what exactly is moderate socialism? we need a solid definition or else we will find ourselves getting rid of important facets of democracy.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1536258' date='May 21 2008, 02:17 PM']What I want you to do... is show me how [i]I[/i] am on the wrong path and straying from the fold by merely finding an attraction to the belief in a market that focuses more on need then on profit, to the belief that outsourcing and free trade should always be accompanied by a respect for fair wage negotiations and labor unions, and to the belief that even the poorest of Americans ought to have an actual say in our democratic republic, and not just rely on the false and empty promises of the politicians who only serve those who had the money and the power to put them in office, often times themselves.[/quote]

[Didymus]

It would really help if we all started looking past the poor examples found in Communist Russia and actually look at what I am saying...

[Alycin]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1536453' date='May 21 2008, 04:28 PM']It would really help if we all started looking past the poor examples found in Communist Russia and actually look at what I am saying...[/quote]

Some people want to stay safely inside their box of understanding.

[cmotherofpirl]

While this is all fascinating start a new thread on socialism and communism please start a new thread Its ok to keep it on this board, since it is related to the Democratic Party.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1536500' date='May 21 2008, 04:32 PM']While this is all fascinating start a new thread on socialism and communism please start a new thread Its ok to keep it on this board, since it is related to the Democratic Party.[/quote]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80487"]Socialism - The Great Lie[/url]

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1536577' date='May 21 2008, 07:56 PM'][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80487"]Socialism - The Great Lie[/url][/quote]

Saw that. Thank you for posting it.

[Socrates]

Per CMom's request, and because I believe the topic deserves its own thread, and goes beyond the election, I have answered Didymus in a thread in the Debate Table: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80497"]Can One be a Sincere Catholic and a True Socialist[/url]?