A Letter From Marty Haugen To Jeff Miller

[kujo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1528813' date='May 14 2008, 08:39 PM']You know how I know? People have told the priest they will NEVER return to a Mass there based only and solely on the dreadful music! BY THE FRUIT YOU WILL KNOW!

That music doesn't glorify anybody but the people singing it. There is absolutely no theological value or significance to what is happening at the Altar in the words they sing and the tune they are playing.[/quote]

That's quite a sweeping generalization. Again I ask...what is the dateline? Where does "sacred" become "dreadful?" What year? What language?

[dominicansoul]

OH...your right. I am making a generalization about ALL protestant praise and worship hymns!

Some of them are okay, and rather serene.

What I meant to say is that if the music is not beautiful, if it doesn't lift people's hearts and minds and souls to God during the Holy Mass, but rather makes people's heads hurt by its noise and causes disruption of their prayer, making them want to leave and never return to this particular parish again, it shouldn't be played...that should be the lithmus test for all music played at Mass.

Edited May 14, 2008 by dominicansoul

[kujo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1528825' date='May 14 2008, 08:48 PM']OH...your right. I am making a generalization about ALL protestant praise and worship hymns!

Some of them are okay, and rather serene.

What I meant to say is that if the music is not beautiful, if it doesn't lift people's hearts and minds and souls to God during the Holy Mass, but rather makes people's heads hurt by its noise and causes disruption of their prayer, making them want to leave and never return to this particular parish again, it shouldn't be played...that should be the lithmus test for all music.[/quote]

If that's what you're saying, then I will have to agree with you. I'm not advocating for emocore masses. Just saying that there are some pretty sweet songs by our Protestant brothers and sisters that are certainly liturgically appropriate. For instance, the song "Better is One Day" by Matt Redman is virtually verbatim Psalm 84. Powerful song that brings me right to the throne of God.

Pe@ce!!!

[dominicansoul]

I like "Word of God Speak" from Mercy Me. I have often thought it could be played during Eucharistic Adoration...or as a Communion Meditation

[kujo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1528838' date='May 14 2008, 08:59 PM']I like "Word of God Speak" from Mercy Me. I have often thought it could be played during Eucharistic Adoration...or as a Communion Meditation[/quote]

I've actually heard a variation of it done prior to the Gospel. The cantor added an "Alleluia" refrain to it...very good song.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1528552' date='May 14 2008, 03:06 PM']From: Musicam Sacram, Sacred Congregation of Rites, March 5, 1967

9. In selecting the kind of sacred music to be used, whether it be for the choir or for the people, the capacities of those who are to sing the music must be taken into account. No kind of sacred music is prohibited from liturgical actions by the Church as long as it corresponds to the spirit of the liturgical celebration itself and the nature of its individual parts,7 and does not hinder the active participation of the people.

10. In order that the faithful may actively participate more willingly and with greater benefit, it is fitting that the format of the celebration and the degree of participation in it should be varied as much as possible, according to the solemnity of the day and the nature of the congregation present.

11. It should be kept in mind that the true solemnity of liturgical worship depends less on a more ornate form of singing and a more magnificent ceremonial than on its worthy and religious celebration, which takes into account the integrity of the liturgical celebration itself, and the performance of each of its parts according to their own particular nature. To have a more ornate form of singing and a more magnificent ceremonial is at times desirable when there are the resources available to carry them out properly; on the other hand it would be contrary to the true solemnity of the liturgy if this were to lead to a part of the action being omitted, changed, or improperly performed.

62. Musical instruments can be very useful in sacred celebrations, whether they accompany the singing or whether they are played as solo instruments.

"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional instrument of the Church, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful."43

63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments that are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

In other words, do the best you can within your parish's capabilities in terms of resources both financial, logistical and personnel. We can't all live next door to a Cathedral with a 50 member choir, and an organist with a degree from Juliard.[/quote]
This is a good document. There is a lot of important things in there. Particularly, the point that chant is pride of place. But like you said, it's all about avalability of resources. Though organ is by no means a requirement for musical worship, nor any instrument. Voices have been sufficient for many generations.

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1528566' date='May 14 2008, 03:21 PM']So how did the poor Irish do it 100 years ago when a piano was totally unheard of at Mass, and the organ usually a novelty? It can be done, easily, we're just too selfish and spoiled to be willing to. If you give a moose a cookie...We don't care about how God wants us to worship, we only care about what makes us feel good. While some of their stuff is actually pretty good, that is the problem with H&H. Americans grossly rip those paragraphs out of context and out of the intent in which they were written.[/quote]
Good points. The music of the secular culture today reflects our society of instant gratification. Some people work to translate that to our liturgies in the name of "relevance". What can I say? We need to look at and talk about the bigger picture here... how long will THIS music last?

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1528612' date='May 14 2008, 04:08 PM']Was that with Fr. Dominic? Our class was one giant battle between charismatics and traditinalists. the poor man hardly got in a word edge wise. Typically a traditionalist would quote a document and a charismatic would say "its flexible"[/quote]
lawl.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1528617' date='May 14 2008, 04:20 PM']My great-grandmother played violin in church in Ireland in the 1870's. My dad said she much preferred singing in St. Patrick's in New York after she immigrated, but then wouldn't we all.

Sorry if I seem cranky, I cooked 500 hotdogs and 250 footlongs for a bunch of Beckam soccer nuts last night. I know that we should all aspire to the ideal, but sometimes that is beyond our reach. I know that many of you traditional guys can't or won't understand that, but I'm just hoping that our worship is accepted by the Lord as humbly as we can offer it next to our more wealthy or larger parishes.[/quote]
Well, if I could, I'd come to your parish and help organise the choir. For reals.

[quote name='Seven77' post='1528769' date='May 14 2008, 07:04 PM']a first! [i]i agree with you![/i][/quote]
Lawl. I can feel the love

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1528776' date='May 14 2008, 07:07 PM']That was written in 1967. That tells me a lot.[/quote]
Doesn't tell me a lot. This document is pretty good according to context of past documents on music. It was not put together in a vacuum like the Spirit of Vatican 2 musical sabotage.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1528802' date='May 14 2008, 07:27 PM']"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional instrument of the Church, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things."

That's it. That's really just the point. The music, whether traditional or contemporary should have a sound to add to the SPLENDOR of the Mass, and POWERFULLY lift up men's minds to God and higher things.

I have been an organist for the Church since I was 7 years old. I have had to fight to play beautiful music at the Mass. I have to admit, in the thousands of pieces of music I have played for God, I find the more traditional hymns fulfill the requirements of Musicam Sacrum. I have often found that the more I played a traditional hymn, the more the congregation learned to appreciate it and sing along. It is absolutely DREADFUL when the Mass is hijacked by some youth choir playing electric guitar and drums while wailing through Protestant praise & worship songs...I am sure God is not amused! Nor is He pleased. Remember that the Liturgy was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and to take away from Him what is rightfully His is not for us to do. He wants our absolute attention and our hearts to be raised to Him. If the music doesn't allow this, it shouldn't be played. In the Old Testament, God clearly rejects Cain's offering. Something about Cain's grains did not meet with God's approval. I can only imagine what God thinks about what man has done to the celebration of His Holy Mass...[/quote]
You are my new hero

[quote name='kujo' post='1528820' date='May 14 2008, 07:42 PM']That's quite a sweeping generalization. Again I ask...what is the dateline? Where does "sacred" become "dreadful?" What year? What language?[/quote]


I'll bite. There is no year line. But there is an expected format in the west. The music has to derive from Gregorian chant, which was born from the Latin liturgy itself, and has some ties back to synagogue worship (so I've heard). It's sort of a tiered concept:

The basis of sacred music: Gregorian Chant (latin)
can be translated and adapt chant to vernacular=organic variations on the music="new" chant
music can be inspired by the gregorian melodies. There are polyphonic works of the past (and some now most likely... somewheres out there) which are inspired by the Gregorian chant, that is, may contain melody fragments, inspired by the mode, the melismatic styling... etc.

When does it become dreadful? It's either propper, or it's not. I don't think there is a line to get REAL close to... the focus should not be on the line, but on the objective base. Therein lies our ability to tolerate "problems". (I hope that made sense).

[missionseeker]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1528471' date='May 14 2008, 01:19 PM']Wow, I guess I'm really out of it because I had no idea that people hated Haugen's music. I happen to love it. Oh right, it's modern music, I forgot that some people think that you aren't a really faithful Catholic if you prefer new music to stuff written 200 years ago in Latin.

Our parish has been scrambling to find people who can play organ/piano/guitar at masses. We can't pay, and you can only overwork volunteers so much. We found a traditional organist and a cantor who was willing to work with him once a month, and he only does older music out of the old hymnals. At Pentecost services, not only were people not singing, but few ever bothered to pick up the book to try. Traditionalists might hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate), appreciate) Haugen's music, but when we play his songs in church people sing, are engaged and drawn into the worship. I know that shouldn't matter, that we are all supposed to be there for the Eucharist, but I guess I have to live in the real world. My real world is a small, poor church in a neighborhood filled with pawn shops, XXX video parlors, prostitutes and drug dealers. To me the most important thing is to get people's butts in the pews. I hope that something brings them back rather than sending them running to the doors.[/quote]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1528617' date='May 14 2008, 04:20 PM']My great-grandmother played violin in church in Ireland in the 1870's. My dad said she much preferred singing in St. Patrick's in New York after she immigrated, but then wouldn't we all.

Sorry if I seem cranky, I cooked 500 hotdogs and 250 footlongs for a bunch of Beckam soccer nuts last night. I know that we should all aspire to the ideal, but sometimes that is beyond our reach. I know that many of you traditional guys can't or won't understand that, but I'm just hoping that our worship is accepted by the Lord as humbly as we can offer it next to our more wealthy or larger parishes.[/quote]


Our parish has no organist. Probably very few trained musicians. The choir that we had, Father got rid of. He replaced it with a group of singers age 8- 50. we have no accompianiment. Most of the singers are ages 8-18. Most have had no musical training other than the choir. Some have played instruments. this group has been singing since I was 13. when I was 15, I taught [url="http://youtube.com/watch?v=eb83XOJ4tEc&feature=related"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=eb83XOJ4tEc&feature=related[/url] to 5-10 year olds. They were asked to sing it at a wedding. Sacred music is not as hard as people would like you to believe. Chant is easy. Polyphony can be taught to ordinar, untrained children and sound gorgeous.

This Sunday at Mass, we sang Panis Angelicus in three parts.

people have not been "driven" from Mass. They have flocked to it.


[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1528772' date='May 14 2008, 07:05 PM']It's not really a matter of taste. It is a matter of what will bring people closer to God. I agree, there are some beautiful modern hymns, but a lot of what we hear is Protestant and not even pleasant to listen to. Our Church has such a wealth of beautiful music. Why reject it for songs that aren't even theologically sound?
We also need to encourage people nowadays to write good, suitable liturgical music.[/quote]



From something I wrote last year:

Here one may say "but beauty is subjective." I answer: not quite. Beauty is defined as by Webster's dictionary as "the quality or aggregate of qualities in a person or thing that gives pleasure to the senses or pleasurably exalts the mind or spirit." Yet again one might say, “what exalts individual minds or spirits is subjective.” I answer: not true.


That which is the highest Good is God. The ultimate goal of every man is (or should be) to reach the greatest Good. Man cannot reach Good without goodness; man's spirit cannot be lifted to the highest Good by something that is not good. Because of the nature of “good” something cannot be good and not lift man's spirit to God, even if man does not realize that his spirit is being lifted. This is why beauty is not subjective. But, because of sin, beauty can be perverted but still seem beautiful. A prime example of this is human sexuality. I am not saying that human sexuality is beauty perverted. Human sexuality is wondrously beautiful when it is not used in a perverted fashion. It fulfills the requirement of lifting the soul to God. But when a man (or a woman) uses his sexuality in any way other than that which was intended, it no longer lifts his soul; in fact, it drags his soul away from God, yet, it still can be mistakenly perceived as good.


The same is true of music. St. Augustine said, “Music, that is the science or the sense of proper modulation, is likewise given by God's generosity to mortals having rational souls in order to lead them to higher things." Beautiful music lifts the soul to God. Here I could go on for pages about how some music is not beautiful and does not lift man's soul. In fact, I have done so before (in a paper for Dr. Urbanczyk) but it is not immediately pertinent to this, so I will resist the temptation. You have been spared.


Since the Mass is the highest form of worship, should an effort not be made by musicians (whether they have been trained or not) to provide the most beautiful music they can? And since beauty is not entirely subjective, should they not make an effort to train themselves (and others) to be able to determine whether music is beautiful or not?

Edited May 15, 2008 by missionseeker

[franciscanheart]

the link is down... server crash? who knows...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1528791' date='May 14 2008, 06:17 PM']Not really.[/quote]

What/who are you referring to?

[CatherineM]

SMM-You're certainly welcome to come help our choir. Our Saturday senior choir has 5 people, and sounds a bit like the choir at the beginning of Sister Act. One woman is always a half measure ahead or behind, and screeches. Our 9am Sunday has no music, and our 11am Sunday has a different accompanist each week. One is a nun on organ who only knows 3 songs, badly, one is an organist that doesn't allow anyone to sing with him, and he picks songs that no one in the parish knows. No one sings. I can only hear myself, and one of the other choir members on the other side of the church. The third is a nurse who works every other weekend. She's the only one I'd consider competent on her instrument.

The choir consists of me, who's had 15 years of formal training and am a contralto to high mezzo, another woman who has a fine arts degree, but very little actual vocal training, but has had some and is a soprano, a woman who sings alto, but rarely above a whisper, and about 3 other people who come inconsistently. We get about 10 for Easter and Christmas, most of whom used to come to church here, but no longer do so because they are too afraid of the neighborhood, or are getting paid in their new church, or don't like that the new pastor is from India. They come back to help us for large masses 2-3 times a year.

How would you handle forming a choir to sing traditional songs with those assets? I'm willing to take any suggestions you think might help. There's no money, but I could probably get anything passed through PC or liturgy that didn't involve that. The last traditional song that I have heard sung in any mass that I have attended was Panis Angelicus, and that was in 1990. I prefer modern music, but your passion for the traditional stuff has had an affect on me. I could probably pick it up again. How would you suggest we start?

[Groo the Wanderer]

As for Hagen:Daas...they make great ice cream - yum!

Oh..

Haugen and Haas....

The music is not so bad...not especially beautiful, but not quite as lame as The Wiggles. The lyrics are what bug the caro out of me though. When you look at the lyrics of more traditional music, you see that we are singing TO God, or ABOUT God.

With Haugen and Haas, more often than not we are singing TO ourselves or ABOUT ourselves. Seems very self centered to me. The Mass/Divine Liturgy is about honoring and praising God, not about lifting ourselves up.

Sidenote: this past Lent, one of the Haugen or Haas songs selected was an atrocious piece in which one of the lines was "as we remake ourselves..." FOUL! WE DON'T REMAKE OURSELVES - God remakes us if we cooperate with Him. Thank the Lord, that song NEVER showed up again...seems I was not the only one that caught that line...


So...my beef with them is the craptastic lyrics they write. Liturgically, theologically, and catachismically unsound.


Come dance in the forest come play in the fields....*BLECH*

[Noel's angel]

lol, I h.ate that one. I also h.ate 'Sing to the Mountains'. Why? What good is that going to do? Is the mountain gonna become Catholic?

Edited May 16, 2008 by Noel's angel

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1529734' date='May 15 2008, 04:32 PM']SMM-You're certainly welcome to come help our choir. Our Saturday senior choir has 5 people, and sounds a bit like the choir at the beginning of Sister Act. One woman is always a half measure ahead or behind, and screeches. Our 9am Sunday has no music, and our 11am Sunday has a different accompanist each week. One is a nun on organ who only knows 3 songs, badly, one is an organist that doesn't allow anyone to sing with him, and he picks songs that no one in the parish knows. No one sings. I can only hear myself, and one of the other choir members on the other side of the church. The third is a nurse who works every other weekend. She's the only one I'd consider competent on her instrument.

The choir consists of me, who's had 15 years of formal training and am a contralto to high mezzo, another woman who has a fine arts degree, but very little actual vocal training, but has had some and is a soprano, a woman who sings alto, but rarely above a whisper, and about 3 other people who come inconsistently. We get about 10 for Easter and Christmas, most of whom used to come to church here, but no longer do so because they are too afraid of the neighborhood, or are getting paid in their new church, or don't like that the new pastor is from India. They come back to help us for large masses 2-3 times a year.

How would you handle forming a choir to sing traditional songs with those assets? I'm willing to take any suggestions you think might help. There's no money, but I could probably get anything passed through PC or liturgy that didn't involve that. The last traditional song that I have heard sung in any mass that I have attended was Panis Angelicus, and that was in 1990. I prefer modern music, but your passion for the traditional stuff has had an affect on me. I could probably pick it up again. How would you suggest we start?[/quote]
Well, I'd start with this: a prayer, intentions to sing sacred music, and a browse through www.cpdl.org. Tons of stuff there... try learning O Bone Jesu by Palestrina (if you have male voices). I garuntee you that this sort of music won't come in one sitting. Try and look for time to take maybe 30 minutes or so to practice before the next mass. And when I say practice, I mean go over the parts with the other choir members and work on making it sound good. I've seen many "choir practices" where the organist sits down and starts playing while the "choir" just sings... and when I say the choir, I mean the cantor. It was not an effective use of their time.

Anywho back to CPDL... search "Mass SSA" (I came up with Byrd's mass for 3 voices [url="http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Mass_for_Three_Voices_%28William_Byrd%29)"]http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Mass_fo...illiam_Byrd%29)[/url] or "mass SSAA" or whatever voices you have at your disposal. There are many songs where you could probably get away with a female singing tenor, though, so it might give some leeway. I hope this all helps. I have some music that you could sing (SSA) but it's not on the site as I have it... maybe I could scan it and post it? (gives me an idea for a thread)...

Anywho (I say that too much) I hope this helps. Btw, none of the music I suggest requires an organ per se, but if you really really want to add it, do so, but make sure it does not overcome your voices. I'm hoping that I can help, cause I'm sincerely doing my best with what you've told me. I know there is simple stuff out there, but it takes some searching. But, simple sacred music (or any sacred music) comes at a cost, and that is time. God bless

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1530469' date='May 16 2008, 02:01 PM']lol, I h.ate that one. I also h.ate 'Sing to the Mountains'. Why? What good is that going to do? Is the mountain gonna become Catholic?[/quote]
No, the mountain will become a hippy...

Edited May 16, 2008 by Sacred Music Man

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1530520' date='May 16 2008, 12:41 PM']No, the mountain will become a hippy...[/quote]
+J.M.J.+

[StColette]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1530469' date='May 16 2008, 02:01 PM']lol, I h.ate that one. I also h.ate 'Sing to the Mountains'.[/quote]

I can't stand a song called "Beautiful River." Never in my life have I wanted to leave Mass before the last song was finished, but this song drives me absolutely crazy.

"Yes, we'll gather at the river,
The beautiful, the beautiful river"

the tune is just horrible too.