Are Teachers Overpaid?

[XIX]

Well what was the point of your post if not to insult someone?


Anyways, teacher pay really depends on where you teach and in what capacity. The answer to "Are teachers overpaid" is simply that it depends. In what state do you teach? Public school or private school? High school, grade school, pre school? Are you a math teacher? etc. etc. etc.

Personally, I tend not to think that teachers should be paid more. A great teachers who loves his or her job is a priceless treasure. One bad teacher can ruin a kid's psyche for years. And if a public school get a bad teacher, they are stuck for like 20 years because of tenure. Catholic schools pay far less than public schools, but the lower salaries tend to naturally weed out the teachers who are only in it for themselves. People won't work for that kind of money unless they love what they do. It seems to me that by increasing teacher salaries, the government would be attracting lackluster teachers who are only in it for themselves and could care less about the children. Such people should work in a cubicle somewhere.

Anyways, I think a lot of the posters are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Maybe teachers do deserve to make more money, but we should definitely put the students' interests first. I think most good teachers agree that it's important to prioritize the kids ahead of themselves.

It is possible to support a family on a salary of, say, 50K (yes, pre-tax) even if you spouse is a full-time parent. It takes some creative budgeting and frugal spending, but if you save money and live simply (which a Catholic should do anyway), then you can totally support a family of four.

You'll feel the pinch, but hey, it's not giving unless it stings a little.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote]It seems to me that by increasing teacher salaries, the government would be attracting lackluster teachers who are only in it for themselves and could care less about the children. Such people should work in a cubicle somewhere.[/quote]

This is what I was getting at. It takes time to be a good teacher. Some people have a natural talent but it still has to be refined and educated with time. Teaching is one of the only professions where a 21/22 year old can jump right into exactly what they want to be doing. It also has great starting salaries (comparatively), great benefits, a decent work day(esp at the under hs level), and many educational incentives like college loan forgiveness.
This all adds up to being overpaid. Their are fields that a 21/22 year old could get out into the workforce, namely computer science, and make over 35k. The next best out-of-undergraduate-college salary is teachers. If you get more education you can be a nurse and money just piles on from there. However, the idea that teachers are paid so much off the bat is what's created a crisis (as well as families not living up to what they should be). As teachers show good records and have students that report good things and do well the teachers should be rewarded with large pay increases. But only, like in every other job, after they've proven themselvs, not before.
Like trogdor said a bad teacher can ruin a child for YEARS. We have institutions churning out "teachers" en mass pushing out older more experienced teachers. (into a semi-comfy retirement). Pushing out of the older people may be needed in, say, the fast paced world of athletics or in finance, but teachers, no.

Edited May 30, 2008 by Autumn Dusk

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='XIX' post='1548734' date='May 30 2008, 03:33 AM']Personally, I tend not to think that teachers should be paid more. A great teachers who loves his or her job is a priceless treasure. One bad teacher can ruin a kid's psyche for years. And if a public school get a bad teacher, they are stuck for like 20 years because of tenure. Catholic schools pay far less than public schools, but the lower salaries tend to naturally weed out the teachers who are only in it for themselves. People won't work for that kind of money unless they love what they do. It seems to me that by increasing teacher salaries, the government would be attracting lackluster teachers who are only in it for themselves and could care less about the children. Such people should work in a cubicle somewhere.

Anyways, I think a lot of the posters are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Maybe teachers do deserve to make more money, but we should definitely put the students' interests first. I think most good teachers agree that it's important to prioritize the kids ahead of themselves.[/quote]
On the other hand one could argue that paying teachers less means that you don't get some of the truly qualified people, as they can make more elsewhere. I mean, they do try to entice professionals into teaching (especially with science & math). Of course, what the students need should be first, most definitely.

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1549231' date='May 30 2008, 02:26 PM']This is what I was getting at. It takes time to be a good teacher. Some people have a natural talent but it still has to be refined and educated with time. Teaching is one of the only professions where a 21/22 year old can jump right into exactly what they want to be doing. It also has great starting salaries (comparatively), great benefits, a decent work day(esp at the under hs level), and many educational incentives like college loan forgiveness.
This all adds up to being overpaid. Their are fields that a 21/22 year old could get out into the workforce, namely computer science, and make over 35k. The next best out-of-undergraduate-college salary is teachers. If you get more education you can be a nurse and money just piles on from there. However, the idea that teachers are paid so much off the bat is what's created a crisis (as well as families not living up to what they should be). As teachers show good records and have students that report good things and do well the teachers should be rewarded with large pay increases. But only, like in every other job, after they've proven themselvs, not before.
Like trogdor said a bad teacher can ruin a child for YEARS. We have institutions churning out "teachers" en mass pushing out older more experienced teachers. (into a semi-comfy retirement). Pushing out of the older people may be needed in, say, the fast paced world of athletics or in finance, but teachers, no.[/quote]
While I think it was a nice idea to offer alternative certification (which I went through), I also think it doesn't have the best track record, as you're putting people in a classroom with no teaching experience and expecting them to pick everything up along the way. Some alt cert programmes are run better than others, though.

[FreeSoul]

Teachers are both underpaid and undervalued.

The vocation of teaching is one a cornerstorne upon which a healthy society is built, without valued education, all of culture is affected. As a legitimate profession, the teacher should be paid at least as much as a doctor. The issue is not compensation, but how to create a culture in which the community (that includes teachers) values and invests in a culture of education.

I wonder how much money an executive at Coca-Cola or McDonald's makes. No matter how hard they work, they are ultimately polluting our minds with useless marketing and advertising, contributing to the obesity crisis, and profiting off of the poor who no doubt will spend money for a fast and inexpensive status symbol - and for what?

Where are our priorities? When we say 'are teachers overpaid?' What are we really saying about the value of education?

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1537930' date='May 22 2008, 09:32 PM']Teachers in the northeast are typically paid well. Overpaid? I dunno about that. A kindergarden teacher shouldn't get 45k a year but a high school science teacher may deserve that.[/quote]

Are you kidding me? Is this thread for real? There's actually people out there that think that 45K is a ridiculous amount of money? Hec, I know administrative assistants that make that much and your complaining that a Kindergarten Teacher (which is probably one of the most important jobs in the world) makes the pathetic salary of 45K? Teachers have to put up with so much #$%@ (like this thread for example) and have to literally raise the kids of wanna be mothers and dads. I can't believe there are people out there thinking that teachers are overpaid. Why don't you go try teaching? And while you are at it, go try running a school? Somebody who busts their rear in graduate school and pays their dues in administration for years deserves well close to six figures, which by the way is what normally a really good sales person makes. Overpaid teachers? Oh yeah right, that's why they are always driving those BMWs and sportscars...right.

I live in Atlanta, and the starting salary for some counties is 40K, and that is still low compared to let's say the Kroger Deli Manager who get's paid 44K. Wow, what an insult to a teacher. Hey guess what, you should be making less than that Deli Manager and putting up with out bratty kids. No thanks. $60K sounds like a great salary for our educators. More power to them!

Peace

Kiris

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1549609' date='May 30 2008, 08:01 PM']I live in Atlanta, and the starting salary for some counties is 40K, and that is still low compared to let's say the Kroger Deli Manager who get's paid 44K. Wow, what an insult to a teacher. Hey guess what, you should be making less than that Deli Manager and putting up with out bratty kids. No thanks. $60K sounds like a great salary for our educators. More power to them![/quote]
GA pays more than FL then (starting salary in Duval County, FL is around $33,000, I think. Or at least it was 2 years ago, and I don't think it's gone up much. Maybe to $35,000 or $36,000)

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1549609' date='May 30 2008, 04:01 PM']Are you kidding me? Is this thread for real? There's actually people out there that think that 45K is a ridiculous amount of money? Hec, I know administrative assistants that make that much and your complaining that a Kindergarten Teacher (which is probably one of the most important jobs in the world) makes the pathetic salary of 45K? Teachers have to put up with so much #$%@ (like this thread for example) and have to literally raise the kids of wanna be mothers and dads. I can't believe there are people out there thinking that teachers are overpaid. Why don't you go try teaching? And while you are at it, go try running a school? Somebody who busts their rear in graduate school and pays their dues in administration for years deserves well close to six figures, which by the way is what normally a really good sales person makes. Overpaid teachers? Oh yeah right, that's why they are always driving those BMWs and sportscars...right.

I live in Atlanta, and the starting salary for some counties is 40K, and that is still low compared to let's say the Kroger Deli Manager who get's paid 44K. Wow, what an insult to a teacher. Hey guess what, you should be making less than that Deli Manager and putting up with out bratty kids. No thanks. $60K sounds like a great salary for our educators. More power to them!

Peace

Kiris[/quote]


The deli mananger dosn't get the job RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE! thats my issue. Managers often work for 10 or more years before they can get that sort of job.

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-6855.jpg[/img]
Storm Shadow called. He wants his outfit back.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1549844' date='May 30 2008, 07:35 PM'][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-6855.jpg[/img]
Storm Shadow called. He wants his outfit back.[/quote]

Storm Shadow doesn't have a mustache. This is Frank Nero from the 80's Ninja flick "Enter the Ninja", also starring the multi-talented Sho Kosugi.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1549796' date='May 30 2008, 06:59 PM']The deli mananger dosn't get the job RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE! thats my issue. Managers often work for 10 or more years before they can get that sort of job.[/quote]

Actually, my brother hooked his Deli Manager job after only five years. He went from deli clerk to manager. And don't forget that teachers also student teach for at least a year (and don't forget the four years of busting their rear in college-it's funny how some people forget that whole part). But that's one of the things a college education is supposed to do, it generally is supposed to get you just a "bit" more money than the non-college educated, that's why you spend so much money on a college education. It's called ROI.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1549982' date='May 30 2008, 09:37 PM']Actually, my brother hooked his Deli Manager job after only five years. He went from deli clerk to manager. And don't forget that teachers also student teach for at least a year (and don't forget the four years of busting their rear in college-it's funny how some people forget that whole part). But that's one of the things a college education is supposed to do, it generally is supposed to get you just a "bit" more money than the non-college educated, that's why you spend so much money on a college education. It's called ROI.[/quote]

I was comparing undergraduate college degree salaries. People can get lucky and get a manager job but its just that...luck.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1549972' date='May 30 2008, 08:30 PM']Storm Shadow doesn't have a mustache. This is Frank Nero from the 80's Ninja flick "Enter the Ninja", also starring the multi-talented Sho Kosugi.[/quote]
Yeah. He wants it back. That means that's not Storm Shadow, just his outfit.
It's still funny.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1550027' date='May 30 2008, 09:10 PM']I was comparing undergraduate college degree salaries. People can get lucky and get a manager job but its just that...luck.[/quote]It's not just luck. It's also how you present yourself. While I don't revere management, it's not always "luck" that gets them their position.

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep. In a school district it all depends on who you are related to that gets you the job.

[BG45]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1551219' date='May 31 2008, 08:16 PM']Yep. In a school district it all depends on who you are related to that gets you the job.[/quote]

Well that's a sweeping generalization of all school districts...

I know in our school district I can think of exactly three teachers who have had that occur, and all were incompetent. Otherwise, here at least, there's this bidding system based on [b]seniority[/b], where people can lose their jobs for bumping a person with seniority in favor of a relative...which has happened more than once.

[samfran08x3]

Teachers around here in bossier definatly dont make enough.
some people who are managers at fast food places and ya know jobs that are sorta part time are definatly making more than teachers. our church isnt exactly full of money so our youth ministers dont get paid much but according to what our last youth minister told me. teachers get paid less than she did.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BG45' post='1551436' date='May 31 2008, 11:27 PM']Well that's a sweeping generalization of all school districts...

I know in our school district I can think of exactly three teachers who have had that occur, and all were incompetent. Otherwise, here at least, there's this bidding system based on [b]seniority[/b], where people can lose their jobs for bumping a person with seniority in favor of a relative...which has happened more than once.[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be a generalization, I was thinking of my school district. Seniority kicks in [supposedly] after you are hired. However when your father is principal or your uncle is on the school board, you can move very quickly from sub to hire whether you can teach or not. Or alternately if your brother is a teacher and a non-teaching position comes up, presto you have a job.

[Lisieux Flower]

[quote name='FreeSoul' post='1549352' date='May 30 2008, 10:17 AM']Teachers are both underpaid and undervalued.

The vocation of teaching is one a cornerstorne upon which a healthy society is built, without valued education, all of culture is affected. As a legitimate profession, the teacher should be paid at least as much as a doctor. The issue is not compensation, but how to create a culture in which the community (that includes teachers) values and invests in a culture of education.[/quote]



[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1556574' date='Jun 3 2008, 07:35 PM']It wasn't meant to be a generalization, I was thinking of my school district. Seniority kicks in [supposedly] after you are hired. However when your father is principal or your uncle is on the school board, you can move very quickly from sub to hire whether you can teach or not. Or alternately if your brother is a teacher and a non-teaching position comes up, presto you have a job.[/quote]

i don't think it happens like "presto" just like that. but it's like any job, it's definitely good to network and get your name out there... and sometimes it's good to know the right people, because they personally know you and they know that you'll do a great job.