The Bible

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1572585' date='Jun 16 2008, 11:44 AM']...but wouldn't that also mean that the Baptist church would have been founded by man and not Christ?

That logic confuses me...[/quote]
It confused me, too (one of the many reasons I'm no longer Baptist).

[Greyhawk]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1572338' date='Jun 15 2008, 09:25 PM']That's a great list, thanks.[/quote]
Here's another list of founders: [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/history.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/history.html[/url]

Or, you could go here since the website address is easier to remember: [url="http://www.whostartedyourchurch.com/"]http://www.whostartedyourchurch.com/[/url]

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1572332' date='Jun 15 2008, 10:11 PM']If you are a member of the [b][color="#FF0000"]Jewish faith, your religion was founded by Abraham about 4,000 years ago[/color]. [/b]
If you are a Hindu, your religion was developed in India around 1,500 B.C.

If you are a Buddhist, your religion split from Hinduism, and was founded by Buddha, Prince Siddhartha Gautama of India, about 500 B.C.

If you are[b] [color="#FF0000"]Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year 33.[/color] [/b]

If you are Islamic, Mohammed started your religion in what is now Saudi Arabia around 600 A.D.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Catholicism around the year 1000.

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded my Martin Luther, an ex-Monk of the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Unitarian, your religious group developed in Europe in the 1500's

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off from Puritanism in the early 1600's in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your religion was brought over from England, to the American colonies and formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Mormon (Latter-Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y., NOT Salt Lake City, which would have been my guess. The year was 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army (yes, it's a religious group, not just an organization that collects money in kettles on Christmas and serves dinners to the homeless), your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870's.

If you are a Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.

If you are an agnostic, you profess an uncertainty or a skepticism about the existence of God or a Higher Being.

If you are an atheist, you do not believe in the existence of God or any other higher power.[/quote]
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[indent]And this list proves one thing ‘Age doesn’t matter’.
Which of the two religions were truly founded by God? (see jewsih faith and catholic).[/indent]

[KnightofChrist]

Faith in The True God, by man began in the 1st year, or the beginning of existence founded by God in the Garden of Eden. About the year 33 on the authority of Jesus Christ the Son of God, the authority of the old Church the Chair of Moses was past to the New Church the Chair of Peter.

Edited June 16, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[reyb]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1571728' date='Jun 15 2008, 11:39 AM']Why do we claim that the bible came from the church?
Because it did, it's fact. Study history.
Why would we do that when the Protestant churche[b]s[/b] didn't exist up until the 17th century?

The bible is not a book that came down from heaven.
There are so many different books/writings back then. Who's to say which is inspired by God and which isn't.

Only one Church can make that call. It's the church that is established by Christ himself.[/quote]
---------------------------------
[indent]I even heard that the New Testament was written by the Catholic Church. Is it true? And may I know where this idea comes from? (Can you give me any reading materials regarding this issue).[/indent]

[quote name='reyb' post='1573062' date='Jun 16 2008, 06:15 PM']-------------------------

[indent]And this list proves one thing ‘Age doesn’t matter’.
Which of the two religions were truly founded by God? (see jewsih faith and catholic).[/indent][/quote]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1573067' date='Jun 16 2008, 06:23 PM']Faith in The True God, by man began in the 1st year, or the beginning of existence founded by God in the Garden of Eden. About the year 33 on the authority of Jesus Christ the Son of God, the authority of the old Church the Chair of Moses was past to the New Church the Chair of Peter.[/quote]
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[indent]I am sorry; my previous post is out of topic. But let us discuss it in another forum. Your comment is well noted. Thank You. [/indent]

[Galloglasses]

I'm pretty sure the Catholic faith was the one [b]founded by God[/b]

Unless you're going to argue that Jesus isn't God.

[CatherineM]

Reb-The New Testament was written by men with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. These men were Apostles, their assistants, early church leaders. They were members of the church founded by Christ, the same one I belong to. The church had to prayerfully decide which books were inspired and worthy of inclusion in our book sacred scripture, again with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. When you say the New Testament was written by the Catholic Church, some might see that as confirmation that we somehow suppressed legitimate books that should have been included. Nothing is farther from the truth.

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573087' date='Jun 16 2008, 06:46 PM']I'm pretty sure the Catholic faith was the one [b]founded by God[/b]

Unless you're going to argue that Jesus isn't God.[/quote]

...and you are referring to the one I called [post="1348983"]'Historical Jesus'[/post]. Please read this subject and let us discuss it there.

[Galloglasses]

The Subject is the Bible and how the Catholic Church claims its the One true Church. It claims this because it calims this 'Historical Jesus' as you say is the Jesus who founded the Chruch. Even Islam recognises Jesus Existed and that He was born of the Virgin Mary, (they deny His Divinity and Divine Sonship though, seeing Him only in His role as Prophet), want ANOTHER extra Biblical proof Jesus existed? Why, lets look at the Heretical Gnostics, they wrote tons of crud about Jesus and His life, (most of what they wrote is contradictory, self serving croutons, but they prove he existed because there is so much about Him),

Also, lets ask the Jews you like to talk about so much. THEY acknowledge Christ existed, but they're arguement is that He was a heretic and not the Messiah promised by Old Testament Scripture. The Jews acknowledge Christ existed.

Now, since we have even Non-Christians acknowledging that Christ exist, that means that HE DID exist and HE DID found a Church. Otherwise, His message couldn't continue. The Catholic Church claims to be this Church via Apostalic Succession. And the WITNESS of said Apostles. (Be reasonable, do you think people would willingly let themselve be tortured and killed for something they otherwise knew or thought to be false or not real?)

This is why Catholicism calls itself a 'Historical Religion' and the 'Religion according to Reason' And in a theo-Historical Context, the PROPER term applied to Jesus is 'The Christ of the Gospels'

Edited June 16, 2008 by Galloglasses

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573124' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:20 PM']The Subject is the Bible and how the Catholic Church claims its the One true Church. It claims this because it calims this 'Historical Jesus' as you say is the Jesus who founded the Chruch. Even Islam recognises Jesus Existed and that He was born of the Virgin Mary, (they deny His Divinity and Divine Sonship though, seeing Him only in His role as Prophet), want ANOTHER extra Biblical proof Jesus existed? Why, lets look at the Heretical Gnostics, they wrote tons of crud about Jesus and His life, (most of what they wrote is contradictory, self serving croutons, but they prove he existed because there is so much about Him),

Also, lets ask the Jews you like to talk about so much. THEY acknowledge Christ existed, but they're arguement is that He was a heretic and not the Messiah promised by Old Testament Scripture. The Jews acknowledge Christ existed.

Now, since we have even Non-Christians acknowledging that Christ exist, that means that HE DID exist and HE DID found a Church. Otherwise, His message couldn't continue. The Catholic Church claims to be this Church via Apostalic Succession. And the WITNESS of said Apostles. (Be reasonable, do you think people would willingly let themselve be tortured and killed for something they otherwise knew or thought to be false or not real?)

This is why Catholicism calls itself a 'Historical Religion' and the 'Religion according to Reason' And in a theo-Historical Context, the PROPER term applied to Jesus is 'The Christ of the Gospels'[/quote]

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[indent]To believe and to know are two different words but faith is a power that used both of them as a tool for many believers to accept certain ideas although ‘not yet really proven and a lie’. And in this case, Apostle Paul is saying two Jesus in his letter see it in [post="1360913"]Historical Jesus [/post]Thread.

The question really is - how do you know that you put your faith to the real Jesus and not to the other Jesus which is just an interpretation of a reader to the Holy Scripture, a creation of mind and a lie?

If you want to continue our discussion on this issue, please do it in [post="1348983"]Historical Jesus [/post]Thread.[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

You obviously have no idea what the Eucharist is in such a case, do you? Catholics, as you say, KNOW Jesus Existed and is not 'just a lie' because they experience Him in the Eucharist at every Single Catholic Mass. The Jesus of the Scriptures and the Real Jesus are one and the same.

If you are trying to point that Catholicism is basing itself on, somehow, the wrong Jesus, you must have ignored every single post in this or any othe rof your threads.

And why should I? This arguement of Historical Jesus Vrs Real Jesus has entirely to do with the Bible as you claim Historical Jesus could be a 'lie' If you have no faith in what Scripture tells you, then inform me, where did YOU find the real Jesus? Through Prayer? Prayer alone?

[Autumn Dusk]

I'm an athiest so I don't have to worry about who founded me!

[Galloglasses]

Well that was a nice little interjection. Makes a difference from talking to Reyb all day.

[reyb]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1574150' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:06 PM']I'm an athiest so I don't have to worry about who founded me![/quote]


[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1574155' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:08 PM']Well that was a nice little interjection. Makes a difference from talking to Reyb all day.[/quote]

[indent]There is a reason for everything. Please tell it to us why you believe that there is no God? But please do it in another forum/topic.[/indent]

[indent]Let us go back to our discussion regarding 'The Bible'. Is it true that the New Testament was written by the Roman Catholic Church? Is there any reading material regarding this?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1573160' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:48 PM']You obviously have no idea what the Eucharist is in such a case, do you? Catholics, as you say, KNOW Jesus Existed and is not 'just a lie' because they experience Him in the Eucharist at every Single Catholic Mass. The Jesus of the Scriptures and the Real Jesus are one and the same.

If you are trying to point that Catholicism is basing itself on, somehow, the wrong Jesus, you must have ignored every single post in this or any othe rof your threads.

And why should I? This arguement of Historical Jesus Vrs Real Jesus has entirely to do with the Bible as you claim Historical Jesus could be a 'lie' If you have no faith in what Scripture tells you, then inform me, where did YOU find the real Jesus? Through Prayer? Prayer alone?[/quote]

[indent]Regarding the Eucharist - let us discuss it too in another forum. I tried to look for previous topic regarding 'The Eucharist' but it seems all of them are moved to another folder which is not subject for discussion. I want to know the power of the Eucharist. Is it scriptural?[/indent]

[Akalyte]

The protestant understanding of Catholic doctrine is equivalent to, taking someones book and plagiarizing it, and then coming out with a whole different story than what the author originally intended. This is basically what they did with the bible. History tells us, even secular history that our leaders, Popes and Bishops and the councils they convened were responsible for the making of the bible, and even the name "la biblia". It was 400 years before a combined old and new testament even existed. The history is pretty amazing ive read "Where we got the bible and our debt to the catholic church" like 6 times. lol that's an amzing piece of work.

[reyb]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1574405' date='Jun 17 2008, 09:01 PM']The protestant understanding of Catholic doctrine is equivalent to, taking someones book and plagiarizing it, and then coming out with a whole different story than what the author originally intended. This is basically what they did with the bible. [b][color="#FF0000"]History tells us, even secular history that our leaders, Popes and Bishops and the councils they convened were responsible for the making of the bible, and even the name "la biblia[/color][/b]". It was 400 years before a combined old and new testament even existed. The history is pretty amazing ive read "Where we got the bible and our debt to the catholic church" like 6 times. lol that's an amzing piece of work.[/quote]

[indent]This is interesting and I want to know more about it. Do the Roman Catholic really wrote the New Testament? Is there any teaching or tradition or whatever letter regarding this claim?[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

They didn't WRITE the New Testament there and then. Did you read any of the earlier posts? The Apostles and Evangelists wrote the new Testament. The Catholic Church assembled them into the Bible. Before the Catholic Church put the Bible together, THERE WAS NO ONE BOOK WITH ALL SACRED SCRIPTURE IN IT. The sacred Scriptures were in copies of seperate Letters and books.

Oh, yes, regarding evidence about backing up this claim. READ A BLOODY HISTORY BOOK. That is of course if you don't believe us at all, and have completely ignored earlier posts regarding this matter entirely.

Look, i'll make it easier for you. [url="http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm"]http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm[/url] This entire site is devoted to building a bridge between Catholics and Evangelical Protestants by addressing every claim and misconception about the Church. Its got links, references and everything. And don't worry, the guy doesn't use technical language so its easy for everyone to read it. You can look up the majority of your problems on it, as it has most Catholic related issues under the Sun, from Early Church, to the Inquisitions, to the Second Vatican Council. He does not shy away from the tough questions, so you really have no excuse not checking his site out regarding this, or any other, issue.

For the sake of simplicity, it even has a timeline of Church, so you can check our claims and when and where these 'councils' we keep talking about happened. [url="http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_catholic_church.htm"]http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline...olic_church.htm[/url]

Still no good? Oh thats ok, he also has a timeline about how the Bible came to us, here: [url="http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm"]http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline...bible_where.htm[/url] You can cross reference the 'claims' he is laying out there with Google or Wikipedia. [i]Heck, you can even email him directly and ask him about it.[/i] I've emailed him before, he's very quick to answer, (usually the next day), and he's very good at apologetics. (even though he never wanted to get into it much) So check it out. He can deliver a much better answer then I ever could.

Also, check out his links page, he links to a good majority of sites which focus on individual topics and other general apologetics boards.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Galloglasses

[reyb]

[indent]Galloglasses,

Thank you for the info.[/indent]

[Galloglasses]

You're welcome.