The Importance Of Real Literature

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='01 November 2009 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1257130468' post='1995051']
Obviously, Laudete Dominum is just trying to provoke responses from everyone.

Anyway, who doesn't love the smell of an old book and the feel of the pages in your hand? It has much more character than staring at some computer screen.

Of course, [i]The Lord of the Rings[/i] is the greatest work of literature of the 20th century, objectively speaking.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.
[/quote]
It's because the fumes from old book glue make you high.

[anothersaturday]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='31 October 2009 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1257021745' post='1994505']
The Great Gatsby? What has this silly story ever offered on a practical level?
[/quote]

If you have to ask, you'll never know.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='anothersaturday' date='02 November 2009 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1257193093' post='1995347']
If you have to ask, you'll never know.
[/quote]
Very true. You should know that 99% of my posts lately are tongue-in-cheek and I am not really a transhumanist; if anything I have luddite sympathies. lulz. But seriously, why is literature important at all and what is "real" literature? I'm just curious, not denying the existence of real literature or the importance thereof.

Era,
Thanks for the response.

[kafka]

literature is real and it exists. I'm writing a peice of it write now. You all can read it if and when I finish it and get it published.

And it is no Great Gatsy! Puke!

Edited November 2, 2009 by kafka

[Winchester]

[quote name='kafka' date='02 November 2009 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1257197474' post='1995390']
literature is real and it exists. I'm writing a [color="#FF0000"]peice [/color]of it write now. You all can read it if and when I finish it and get it published.

And it is no Great Gatsy! Puke!
[/quote]
Dude.

[kafka]

[quote name='Winchester' date='02 November 2009 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1257198297' post='1995395']
Dude.
[/quote]
I did that just for you.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='02 November 2009 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1257197474' post='1995390']
literature is real and it exists.[/quote]
This is an interesting assertion to consider. I have a complicated appreciation of literature. One the one hand, I love literature. But I also have a keen sense of its futility. For me, real life is what man needs and wants, and poetry/literature is our extremely imperfect attempt to introduce people to real life. Is literature real and does it exist? I'm not sure. Real life is real and exists. But I see literature as a sort of remedy for fallen humanity; had Adam and Eve not fallen, I doubt that they would have created literature. Because of the fall of man, we are impaired in how fully and directly we are able to engage in real life, so we create literature to help us see what has been darkened by sin and death. Literature is like light: it helps us see, and yet we can't hold light in our hands; in that sense, there is something unreal or intangible about literature.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' date='02 November 2009 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1257201613' post='1995426']
This is an interesting assertion to consider. I have a complicated appreciation of literature. One the one hand, I love literature, but on the other hand, the big words make my brain moths fly wildly.
[/quote]
I understand completely.

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' date='02 November 2009 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1257201613' post='1995426']
This is an interesting assertion to consider. I have a complicated appreciation of literature. One the one hand, I love literature. But I also have a keen sense of its futility. For me, real life is what man needs and wants, and poetry/literature is our extremely imperfect attempt to introduce people to real life. Is literature real and does it exist? I'm not sure. Real life is real and exists. But I see literature as a sort of remedy for fallen humanity; had Adam and Eve not fallen, I doubt that they would have created literature. Because of the fall of man, we are impaired in how fully and directly we are able to engage in real life, so we create literature to help us see what has been darkened by sin and death. Literature is like light: it helps us see, and yet we can't hold light in our hands; in that sense, there is something unreal or intangible about literature.
[/quote]
Sacred Scripture is in one sense literature.

So yes it would still exist. A lot of literature describes the state and struggles of fallen man, however it doesnt have to stick to that form. It can merely express truth in a beautiful and uplifting way merely for the sake of the goodness of truth. Men express themselves in deed as well as word. Though deed is greater, word still has a place. And word can inform, enlighten and uplift deeds.

[Jesus_lol]

well, same thing with movies. Citizen Kane is largely regarded as one of the best films ever made, classic, etc. but it also happens to be incredibly boring.

[kafka]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='02 November 2009 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1257202532' post='1995435']
well, same thing with movies. Citizen Kane is largely regarded as one of the best films ever made, classic, etc. but it also happens to be incredibly boring.
[/quote]
what fallen men consider to be good isnt always good.

we need good culture based on Truth.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='02 November 2009 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1257202188' post='1995431']
Sacred Scripture is in one sense literature.[/quote]
Indeed. But I think Scripture can be called an "icon" of the Word of God. It is an icon of Christ the Word. In Heaven, we will be with Christ, not with Scripture.

[quote]So yes it would still exist. A lot of literature describes the state and struggles of fallen man, however it doesnt have to stick to that form. It can merely express truth in a beautiful and uplifting way merely for the sake of the goodness of truth. Men express themselves in deed as well as word. Though deed is greater, word still has a place. And word can inform, enlighten and uplift deeds.
[/quote]
Consider, however, that Christ is the Word of God. He is begotten of the Father in an eternal act. The Father begets a person: the Logos. But Christ is not an alphabetized "word."

The "words" of fiction/poetry are separated from personal act, and thus they are merely remedies that help us see what they point to (i.e., they point to a world of persons who act, and should lead the reader to that real world).

I'm hesitant to speak about these things, for fear that something I say might unintentionally depart from orthodox Christology. So take what I say in this post with a grain of salt.

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' date='02 November 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1257202671' post='1995437']
Indeed. But I think Scripture can be called an "icon" of the Word of God. It is an icon of Christ the Word. In Heaven, we will be with Christ, not with Scripture.
[/quote]
I think I get your point. I was thinking about Earth, not Heaven. Plus there will be a New Earth, so even the just will most likely still form art.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='02 November 2009 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1257203460' post='1995444']
I think I get your point. I was thinking about Earth, not Heaven. Plus there will be a New Earth, so even the just will most likely still form art.
[/quote]
I suppose that's the essential question here: whether art is the ideal cultivation of man's ability, or something he creates as a remedy for his fallen state. I tend to think of it as a remedy. You may also have to separate the discussion between physical art (e.g., architecture) and non-physical art (specifically, literature).

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='31 October 2009 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1257019912' post='1994482']
Why is literature valued in the first place? Literature is an irrelevant waste of time, as are all the humanities. Technology is all that really matters now and education should be designed to effectively train people as specialists in the technical and/or scientific field to which they have to most natural aptitude. Homo sapiens who do not have sufficiently competitive intelligence and/or technical aptitude ought to be doing menial labor to support the lifestyles of the technical and scientific elite. The purpose of our species is to bring about the technological singularity, after this we are done, we will have served our purpose. The humanities are a hindrance to this sole purpose of our existence.

The best thing at this stage of our evolution would be a highly regimented, one-world government in which high-level decision making is in the hands of super computers. It will not be long before homo sapiens will be nothing more than a burden. Perhaps an elite race of cyborgs will be required for a short time, but this is mere speculation which probably overestimates the value of humanoid lifeforms; the singularity is beyond our understanding.

In any case, why is literature assigned more value in this culture (by force on the young anyway, or among primitive cultural elites) than shows and movies when it is obvious that this is the reverse of reality? Seems a bit silly to a futuristic outsider. If it is believed that archaic stories, and narrative entertainment are important in the training of sentient biological units I would suggest that movies and shows are superior. If part of the purpose is to create a shared experience among members of the culture then surely something like [i]Batman Beyond[/i] or [i]Toy Story 2[/i] would be more meaningful and interesting to youth of today and at least as beneficial to their development. Such entertainment is ultimately about pacification anyway, if it has any value at all.

Just trying to start conversation. *facepalm*
[/quote]
You have overdosed on Star Trek episodes of the Borg again????

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 October 2009 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1257021579' post='1994504']
I'm happy that JK Rowling used the popularity of her novels to combat homophobia. I don't know what's particularly well written about them. They both write better than most people, but so does Rowling.

What timeless issues do they speak to? Harry Potter shows the value of enduring friendships. You could claim that as timeless.
[/quote]
If that was her tactic it didn't work. Every kid I know had the same reaction - ewwwww thats gross!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 November 2009 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1257205407' post='1995454']
If that was her tactic it didn't work. Every kid I know had the same reaction - ewwwww thats gross!
[/quote]
Or there was my reaction:

"If it wasn't in the books, it never happened."

[Winchester]

I thought the message was "Deus ex machina is awesome!".

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' date='02 November 2009 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1257203695' post='1995445']
I suppose that's the essential question here: whether art is the ideal cultivation of man's ability, or something he creates as a remedy for his fallen state. I tend to think of it as a remedy. You may also have to separate the discussion between physical art (e.g., architecture) and non-physical art (specifically, literature).
[/quote]
I guess I have a broader view of literature including poems, lyrics, oral traditions, etc. Where would song and poetry fit into this scheme? I do not see them as a rememdy rather a fulness of expression.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='03 November 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1257283409' post='1995805']
I guess I have a broader view of literature including poems, lyrics, oral traditions, etc. Where would song and poetry fit into this scheme? I do not see them as a rememdy rather a fulness of expression.
[/quote]
I hadn't thought of song. I think that would have to be considered separately from poetry, because poetry is based on having alphabetized language, which is a technology that humans have not always had. I do not think that "singing" is synonomous with "song." "Song" seems to suggest a fixed text, but a fixed text implies an alphabetized language. Alphabetized language is a technology that humans have not always had.

Singing is a personal act, and you can sing to express yourself to another person, without having a fixed text that you are singing from and the words of which you are "communicating." So I think that singing, at its root, may be something inherent in our humanity, and not an "art." There is an art of singing, but I don't know if "singing" in itself is synonomous with the art of singing as we know it.

As for oral traditions, I don't know if we would have these without the fall of man. Traditions "hand on" things so that they are not lost. But if humanity were not in a fallen state, then I don't think we would be able to lose anything.

Here is something I'm just speculating on: it's interesting to consider that God is the creator. When we create fiction, we are in a sense imitating God. But I think our true "imitation" of God is in procreation, which is a personal act. I think fiction is something we created after the fall of man; perhaps we created fictional stories that entertain us, because we were not perfectly happy with the fallen world around us. If the world were not fallen, then why would we want to create something fictional of our own, rather than just enjoy God's perfect creation? Why (in an unfallen world) would we want to create fictional worlds and fictional people, when God has made us capable of helping to bring real people into the real world through procreation.