All The Cool People

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1580874' date='Jun 23 2008, 07:21 PM']+J.M.J.+
then it's a good thing the Church decides what's lawful and not you.[/quote]

When vernacular was permitted in the liturgy, it was not meant to replace Latin in manner in which it did. Latin is still the normative language for the Roman Rite.

When other Eucharistic prayers were permitted by the Holy Father, he meant them to be used only on occasion, and to have the Canon remain the norm (hence, it is EP I: not II or III or IV)

Versus poplum was never required by the Council and the current Bishop of Rome seems to favor ad orientem.

When Communion on the Hand was permitted, it was to appease liberal dissenters who supported protestantizing the liturgy. It was never the rule, but the exception. And our current pope again favors the traditional practice.

So I'm pretty sure that it's fairly apparent that they way the Mass is celebrated in most places in the world today is not the way it was intended by the Council.

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1580947' date='Jun 23 2008, 08:16 PM']Nope, can't say that I do. I found it incredibly boring. I got nothing more out of it than I would've had I gone to the English mass a couple hours earlier.[/quote]

Well I'm glad your ancestors didn't find it boring because you probably wouldn't be Catholic today if they had.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1580960' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:26 PM']When vernacular was permitted in the liturgy, it was not meant to replace Latin in manner in which it did. Latin is still the normative language for the Roman Rite.

When other Eucharistic prayers were permitted by the Holy Father, he meant them to be used only on occasion, and to have the Canon remain the norm (hence, it is EP I: not II or III or IV)

Versus poplum was never required by the Council and the current Bishop of Rome seems to favor ad orientem.

When Communion on the Hand was permitted, it was to appease liberal dissenters who supported protestantizing the liturgy. It was never the rule, but the exception. And our current pope again favors the traditional practice.

So I'm pretty sure that it's fairly apparent that they way the Mass is celebrated in most places in the world today is not the way it was intended by the Council.
Well I'm glad your ancestors didn't find it boring because you probably wouldn't be Catholic today if they had.[/quote]
Well a fourth of my ancestors aren't!

[MIKolbe]

this needs to go to the extra lame board.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1580968' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:29 PM']this needs to go to the extra lame board.[/quote]
Yes, we need one of those.

[Resurrexi]

I have a serious question though, did you go to a Low Mass or a High Mass?

[MIKolbe]

she is under 6', so i am pretty sure it was a Low Mass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1580974' date='Jun 23 2008, 08:32 PM']she is under 6', so i am pretty sure it was a Low Mass.[/quote]

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1580562' date='Jun 23 2008, 05:07 PM'][img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/blink822/th_puker.gif[/img][/quote]

This is still the grossest smiley I have ever seen.

[MissScripture]

I think this one was a high Mass.

The other half of a Lating Mass I've been to would've been a low Mass, I think.

[Resurrexi]

Yeah, High Mass is really much better if you're going for your first time. Did you try to use a missal? I wouldn't personally recommend doing so the first few times.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1581000' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:42 PM']Yeah, High Mass is really much better if you're going for your first time. Did you try to use a missal? I wouldn't personally recommend doing so the first few times.[/quote]
At the beginning I didn't, had no idea what was going on. Tried to follow it, still couldn't, gave up and watched the baby in front of me instead (which I should note may have happened at an English mass, too. I find babies very distracting).

[Resurrexi]

If you go a few more times, I'm sure you'll get the hang of it

[MissScripture]

I did find the "wave effect" amusing. I had to sit near the back, because I was with the lady I care for and she's in a wheel chair. You could tell that the front section knew what was going on and when to stand/sit/kneel. And then, in the back section, it was like a wave of motion as people saw what the people in front of them were doing.

[Resurrexi]

Lol I've seen that happen before.

[BG45]

Thanks MS, and the wave! I'll admit to having done that before at other people's churches and such. "Now how do they do Communion here? Must watch the old ladies in front..."

[MissScripture]

[quote name='BG45' post='1581031' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:58 PM']Thanks MS, and the wave! I'll admit to having done that before at other people's churches and such. "Now how do they do Communion here? Must watch the old ladies in front..."[/quote]
I was totally doing it, too. Then, to add to the confusion, this guy kept kneeling way before everyone in the front did, so suddenly, people would see him kneel, go into a half squat about to kneel, then realize the people up front weren't kneeling and stand back up. I think an areial view would've been hilarious!

[Resurrexi]

Yeah there's not always uniformity it the kneeling, sitting and standing of the congregation

[MIKolbe]

they need more rubrics.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1580874' date='Jun 23 2008, 09:21 PM']+J.M.J.+
then it's a good thing the Church decides what's lawful and not you.[/quote]

Not to be annoying or anything, but STM never claimed that these things were unlawful, only that they were abused. Quite frankly, if you do a quick search on this board and on google you'll find that several bishops agree with STM (or really, STM agrees with the bishops) that the currently used translation is inadequate.

As for EMHC's, there is no real dispute about whether their use is greatly abused. I could type the quotes from my own VII book, or I could link to a page and let him do the arguing for me, so I'll do that.

http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Fa...wasniewski.html

Another objection I have (at least until someone shows me a more current document which DOES allow it) is that at NO Masses people often receive under both species.

(from Sacrosanctum Concilium)

242. With the bishop's approval and after due instruction the following persons may receive Communion from the chalice:

1. Newly baptized adults in the Mass following their Baptism; newly confirmed adults in the Mass following their Confirmation; baptized persons who are being received into full communion with the Church.
2. The bridegroom and bride at their Nuptial Mass.
3. Deacons at their ordination Mass.
4. An abbess in the Mass wherein she is blessed; virgins at the Mass of their consecration; professed religious and their parents, close relatives and other members of their community in the Mas wherein they make their first, renewed or perpetual religious profession on the condition that the profesesion is made during Mass.
5. Lay missionaries at the Mass in which they are publicly assigned to their missionary task; others who, during Mass, are entrusted by the Church with some special mission.
6. A sick person, and all who are present when Viaticum is given in a Mass celebrated in the sick person's home.
7. The deacon an dothers who have special ministries in a Mass celebrated with singing.
8. When there is ocncelebration:
a. all who perform a genuine liturgical ministry in concelebration; and all seminarians who are present.
b. all members of institutes professing the evangelical counsels, and other societies whos members dedicate themselves to God by religious vows or promises, provided that the Mass be in their own church or chapel, in addition, all those who live in the houses of these institutes and societies.
9. Priests who are present at important celebrations and yet are not able personally to celebrate or concelebrate.
10. All who are making a retreat or some other form of spiritual exercise, in a Mass specially celebrated for those taking part; all who attend a meeting of pastoral commission, in a Mass which they celebrate in common.
11. Those mentioned in 2 and 4 above, at Masses celebrating their jubilees.
12. Godparents, parents, spouses and lay catechists or a newly baptized adult, during hte Mass of Initiation.
13. Parents, relatives, and special benefactors of a newly ordained priest at his first Mass.
14. Members of the Community at the Conventual or Community Mass as described in n. 76 of this Instruction. (which talks about communities celebrating a "Community Mass". Religious communities, that is.)



I know that's long and tedious, but it does NOT mention every lay person at daily/Sunday Mass. So unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), we're not supposed to do that.

I'm not trying to be holier than thou, or condescending, I'm just presenting what I believe to be right. I know that more traditional people (and i don't mean rad trads, b/c i'm certainly not one of those) are often viewed as condescending and closed minded.

My argument is not with the NO Mass itself, and I actually disagree with STM when he says "the ordinary form celebrated like the eo form". I think what should be said is "the ordinary form as it was meant to be celebrated", or, "the Mass of Vatican II". Fr. Joseph Fessio who is in residence at Ave Maria celebrates the NO Mass ad orientam, in Latin.

Basically, I'm just with the Holy Father that there needs to be a "reform of the reform".

For the record, I'd go to an extraordinary form over any normal parish Mass, but then I'd go to the Mass of Vatican II over any extraordinary form.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1581129' date='Jun 23 2008, 10:08 PM']they need more rubrics.[/quote]



In the EF the rubrics only effect the congregation during Communion.

Edited June 24, 2008 by StThomasMore