National H I V Testing Day

[Veridicus]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587468' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:16 PM']...
Actually we do legalize killing. We do it in many states. Its called the death penalty. Oh but wait, the state does that, so that must make it right even though the bible says THOU SHALL NOT KILL. This is exaclty what I mean. We know killing is wrong, the bible, God and Jesus all say so, yet killing is legal. So what should we do. Should we force everyone to make it a law so killing is illegal, thus not changing any minds at all and eventually getting that law overturned. Or should we make people realize killing is wrong and then even if killing were legalized, it wouldn't matter....[/quote]

Actually, I have read in several places that a better translation of the bible in that respect would be "thou shall not kill [i]illicitly[/i]." In the sense of capital punishment, the killing could be considered a licit retributive response under certain circumstances. I am not saying I am a proponent of the death penalty, but I thought that translational issue should be addressed.

There is a big ethical difference once a state (especially a democratically run state) legalizes and funds abortions, which are the killing of human fetuses. If an individual pursues abortion, it is always on their head; once a state accepts and aids in that abortion, it scandalizes all of its people in the act. Your argument is like saying we should be willing to drive our pregnant friend to the abortion clinic because she is gonna get there anyway if she wants to. We have a moral obligation NOT to drive her regardless of whether we believe our refusal to participate will have any effect on her decision to go or not.

[Veridicus]

We should probably all get back to topic though...

[rkwright]

Havoc I see one glaring inconsistency in your argument. You say that everyone has free will, and forcing abstinence isn't really an option. You contend that we shouldn't force people to believe what we believe about sex.

Thats fine, thats a valid opinion.

If that is true, and free will is so important here, why advocate forcing people to get tested??

I don't want the government taking away my free will, my liberty, for not getting tested.

[rkwright]

More importantly, just because we honor freedom and free will doesn't mean we are required to provide all the options. I'm addressing the point you made about handing out condoms and HIV testing. People can be free, but it doesn't mean that me as a taxpayer should have to encourage their habits.

Should we provide drugs for everyone? Because it is their choice and I know if the government provided the drugs it would be safer... of course not...


Free choice is necessary, but we don't have to provide all options, especially ones that counter our morals.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1587552' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:31 PM']More importantly, just because we honor freedom and free will doesn't mean we are required to provide all the options. I'm addressing the point you made about handing out condoms and HIV testing. People can be free, but it doesn't mean that me as a taxpayer should have to encourage their habits.

Should we provide drugs for everyone? Because it is their choice and I know if the government provided the drugs it would be safer... of course not...
Free choice is necessary, but we don't have to provide all options, especially ones that counter our morals.[/quote]

That's the line of reasoning I was attempting in my recent post too. We have a moral obligation NOT to offer options that violate our morals because doing so is scandal and sin in itself.

[havok579257]

Saying it wouldn't matter and saying I support making it legal are 2 different things. Heck, saying it won't matter and saying I am not against it are 2 different things.

For clarrification for you, I do not support abortion, but I do not think making it illegal will matter. Be will still abort because like I said, if someone wants to do something so bad, they will do it legal or illegal.

Although this is far from me supporting abortion.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587489' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:49 PM']Interesting.[/quote]


Are you serious? Are you really serious? Your going to use a poor choice of words as your argument basis? So sorry, guess we're all not as perfectly literate as you. Some of us are actually human and make mistakes when typing but obviously you choose to ignore the mistake and try to use it as argument.

[havok579257]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1587500' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:56 PM']Manditory-- No
Voluntary-- Why do we need a special day?


No one has a right to take my blood and test it.[/quote]


Never said mandatory, but it should be happening. Free tests for all.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587679' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:27 PM']Saying it wouldn't matter and saying I support making it legal are 2 different things. Heck, saying it won't matter and saying I am not against it are 2 different things.

For clarrification for you, I do not support abortion, but I do not think making it illegal will matter. Be will still abort because like I said, if someone wants to do something so bad, they will do it legal or illegal.

Although this is far from me supporting abortion.[/quote]

So you are not in favor of legal abortion, but you are stating that you don't think there is any merit in trying to make abortion illegal...?

[rkwright]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587679' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:27 PM']Saying it wouldn't matter and saying I support making it legal are 2 different things. Heck, saying it won't matter and saying I am not against it are 2 different things.

For clarrification for you, I do not support abortion, but I do not think making it illegal will matter. Be will still abort because like I said, if someone wants to do something so bad, they will do it legal or illegal.

Although this is far from me supporting abortion.[/quote]

I agree with you to an extent, bad things will always happen. But it doesn't mean we should make bad things illegally.

People are always going to murder other people. It doesn't mean we as a society don't say 'murder is wrong, and were going to outlaw it'

People are probably always going to find ways to abort their babies. But we as a society have a responsibility to say 'abortion is wrong and were going to outlaw it"

AIDs is probably here to stay. We have a responsibility to say "pre-martial sex is wrong and we won't stand for anything that encourages it".

Same with almost any sort of vice crime. Prostitution is the oldest trade on the books; yet we don't make it 'safer' to acquire these things because they are wrong.

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587685' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:30 PM']Are you serious? Are you really serious? Your going to use a poor choice of words as your argument basis? So sorry, guess we're all not as perfectly literate as you. Some of us are actually human and make mistakes when typing but obviously you choose to ignore the mistake and try to use it as argument.[/quote]

No... I am far from perfect... FAR FAR FAR from perfect... "as far as the east is from the west"...

that being said, your inconsistencies and contradicting arguments defeat themselves... as other have already pointed out... if you would like to refute someone... try refuting them... cause I am done here.

[havok579257]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1587506' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:03 PM']Then people who will sleep with people without knowing them well enough to inquire about their health status will get sick. That's the risk of being promiscuous.[/quote]


Mistakes happen. Every single person on this earth sins and will continue sinning till we die. One sin is not worse than any other sin in the eyes of God. Maybe someone who is devoted to God and does not want to have sex till marriage gives into temptation one night and gets HIV. It was a one time mistake, hardly promiscuous. No one is perfect. Yes some are promiscuous, but does that mean they should not be warned that the person could give them one of the worst disease known to man?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587485' date='Jun 30 2008, 09:45 PM']With all due respect havok, you are going back and forth.

Everyone here thinks chastity should be taught, and abstinence practiced, and yet it was you that pointed out that people were going to do it anyway.

Also, I am against the death penalty so I dunno why you're trying to use that argument against me.

Thirdly, I agree that it should be available and free... it already is in many places.

[/quote]


Your the one who brought killing up, not me.

Chastity should be taught and abstinence should be taught also. Did you not read my post at all. That's what the entire post was about. Teaching people the right thing to do and not just making it illegal. Some's concious of right and wrong is a better thing to go off of than what a man made law says.

But its not free world wide and in all places, which it should be.

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587698' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:34 PM']One sin is not worse than any other sin in the eyes of God.[/quote]

This is not Catholic teaching.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587512' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:05 PM']Actually, I have read in several places that a better translation of the bible in that respect would be "thou shall not kill [i]illicitly[/i]." In the sense of capital punishment, the killing could be considered a licit retributive response under certain circumstances. I am not saying I am a proponent of the death penalty, but I thought that translational issue should be addressed.

There is a big ethical difference once a state (especially a democratically run state) legalizes and funds abortions, which are the killing of human fetuses. If an individual pursues abortion, it is always on their head; once a state accepts and aids in that abortion, it scandalizes all of its people in the act. Your argument is like saying we should be willing to drive our pregnant friend to the abortion clinic because she is gonna get there anyway if she wants to. We have a moral obligation NOT to drive her regardless of whether we believe our refusal to participate will have any effect on her decision to go or not.[/quote]




That is nothing like my argument. In your example one is actually furthering the abortion process. I never said anything like that. We do have a moral obligation, but our obligation is to teach people what is right and wrong according to God. If anyone really thinks that making abortion illegal will make the problem of abortion end, then they are kidding themselfs. As is evident with drug use, makings something legal or illegal matters not to the comman man. But making one realize that taking a life, a life that has yet to be offically born is wrong will do something.

Change a law and you change a few abortions a year but will never make a serious dent in tghe problem. People will still have them. Although change someone's mind and you can solve the abortion problem for good. Just look at Jesus when he was alive. Did he go around trying to get everyone to change the laws according to God's will? No, he went around teaching what was right and wrong according to God's will. He was getting people to change their minds, not just the laws. That way, no matter WHAT the laws were, people would follow God's law and not MAN'S law. Yet, it seems to many people are more worried about changing man's law than teaching people God's law. It seems some people would rather force God's will on people, thus not changing people's minds at all and not fixing the problem, except for on the surface. Instead we should focus on teaching God's law so people will not want to abort children even if it is legal. it won't matter because people will follow God's law instead of man's law. That should be our goal.

[Alycin]

Oh and of course we should teach that the things are wrong--but they should also be illegal.


It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I will go so far as to speak for everyone in this thread, other than you, in saying that no one was suggesting such a thing.

Okay.

Nevermind.

I can't promise to leave when you keep posting things that are false.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Alycin

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587717' date='Jun 30 2008, 10:46 PM']Oh and of course we should teach that the things are wrong--but they should also be illegal.
It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I will go so far as to speak for everyone in this thread, other than you, in saying that no one was suggesting such a thing.

Okay.

I'm really leaving this time.

Goodbye.[/quote]


I echo everything Alycin just said...everything.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1587692' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:32 PM']So you are not in favor of legal abortion, but you are stating that you don't think there is any merit in trying to make abortion illegal...?[/quote]


I am saying I am against it and trying to change man's law will not matter in the fight against abortion. Changing people's minds on abortion being wrong will change the abortion battle. If we just change the law, then people will still think abortion is a valiad and ok option and will seek it by illegal means. Teaching somoene that abortion is wrong will solve the problem. If everyone in the world thinks abortion is wrong then will it matter if abortion is legal? It won't matter if everyone thinks its wrong. Although on the flip side, will all abortions stop if we just focus on making it illegal and not focus on teaching people why its wrong?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1587717' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:46 PM']Oh and of course we should teach that the things are wrong--but they should also be illegal.
It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I will go so far as to speak for everyone in this thread, other than you, in saying that no one was suggesting such a thing.

Okay.

Nevermind.

I can't promise to leave when you keep posting things that are false.[/quote]

I thought your were done like 4 posts above this one?

[Alycin]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1587716' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:46 PM']Change a law and you change a few abortions a year but will never make a serious dent in tghe problem.[/quote]

That is a lie perpetuated by the pro-choice crowd and I am deeply saddened that you bought into it.


"Abortion advocates also claim that a million American women each year were undergoing illegal abortions before Roe v. Wade. Statistics from the Centers for Disease Control show that these statements are highly misleading. The CDC reports that after abortion was legalized in January 1973, there were 615,831 legal abortions. In 1976, when there were 988,267 abortions. There weren't over a million legal abortions a year in the United States until the end of 1977, five years after abortion was made legal in all states.

Abortion was legal in a handful of states ( New York, Alaska, Hawaii, Washington, New Jersey, Vermont, and California) before Roe v. Wade and the CDC reports that there were 586,760 legal abortions in 1972."

[url="http://www.rirtl.org/site/page.php?s=01_01_10"]Source[/url]

Cutting a number in half sure sounds like "making a dent" to me.